Castlederg

[Orior]

If Castlederg was a cold place for unionists then it would be a Carlsberg

[Maguire01]

If Castlederg was a cold place for unionists then it would be a Carlsberg

I'm reading Carlsberg every time I see the title of this thread.

[Maguire01]

When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't.

Very broad brush - I have plenty of friends / work colleagues in the PU community (if not the L!) that are very decent and reasonable people who would have no time for inequality of the CNR community. If we're talking about the kind of lads highlighted on 'Loyalists Against Democracy', yes, I agree, they wouldn't concede anything to anyone. But they hold very few cards.

Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place.

As i've said, not only would the British have forced it, but you'd have all the following factors in play:
1 - we would still have had a civil rights movement
2 - there would have been significant external pressure as the rest of the world embraced the broader equality agenda
3 - the education of the Catholic population would have happened regardless
4 - the demographics would still have eaten away at the Protestant majority
5 - heavy industry, employing a hugely disproportionate number of Protestants, would still have disappeared

The PUL community would never have been able to retain their dominance. And as we can see, even with the campaign of violence, we still do have the parade disputes etc. - if anything it's worse!

I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements

The difference is that NI is part of the UK, not just a friend of the UK in some distant land - I don't believe it could have been ignored, especially whilst the rest of the western world was embracing equality in terms of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. Also, I don't believe the US would not have ignored a continued civil rights movement.

[trileacman]

I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements

So the murders of Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, the Enniskillen bombing, the Omagh bombing and the countless other innocent victims of the Troubles were the price that had to be paid for equality. If those acts were carried out in the name of Irish Catholics then I am shamed to hear they were carried out for my sake. I'm not denying what the IRA did or why but I'm trying to say that it isn't something worth glorifying or celebrating as it was last Sunday in Castlederg. We can remember the causes and reasons of the Troubles without a pipe band marching through a country town, an act as classless and tacky as the scrawling of "UP' THE RA" on city walls.

It was a commemoration, not a celebration. As you well know. But that wouldn't have been misleading or sensationalist enough to say in your post would it?

Well if the call the next PUL parade simply a "commemoration" then yeah sure.

But it seems to me that when the OO do it you call it "celebrating sectarianism" but when we do it is a "commemoration".

[Rossfan]

When an organisation to which only male Protestants who are the sons of two Protestants can belong to  goes on a parade I would think it's fair to say it's celebrating Sectarianism.

[trileacman]

When an organisation to which only male Protestants who are the sons of two Protestants can belong to  goes on a parade I would think it's fair to say it's celebrating Sectarianism.

Then why reach for your sunglasses, flag and lambeg drum and ape the fcukers?

[Rossfan]

When an organisation to which only male Protestants who are the sons of two Protestants can belong to  goes on a parade I would think it's fair to say it's celebrating Sectarianism.

Then why reach for your sunglasses, flag and lambeg drum and ape the fcukers?

Exactly.

I don't though.

[lawnseed]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.

As someone else has posted, the vast majority opted for an alternative: not killing (or supporting the killing of) people.

And i've a fair idea of what happened in NI in the 70s and 80s. I didn't experience the 70s first hand (there are probably plenty on either side of this debate who didn't) and I didn't live on the Falls Road or the Bogside, but I have lived in NI since the 80s. Although even if I hadn't, the fact remains that the majority of the 'CNR community' did not support the IRA and its campaign of violence.

There were a lot more nationalists supported the armed struggle than you think. A lot supported it but would never admit it. A lot supported it but were afraid to show support.

good point the guys who fought in the 1916 in Dublin were kicked and spat on by irish people after they were arrested. nowadays its nearly impossible to find anyone in Dublin who's grandparents/ancesters "didn't" fight in the gpo.

[Applesisapples]

Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.

Alot of that post misses the point though. How can SF complain (rightfully) about the OO parading all year long and then go marching in reply? How is that not hypocritical?

SF only object to OO parades when they coat trail through nationalist areas.

[Applesisapples]

To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.

[trileacman]

To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.

The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.

[Applesisapples]

To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.

The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.

No actually I don't see the point of marches of a political or sectarian nature. I was simply pointing up the fact that it is hypocritical to insist that the OO can march where they like glorifying sectarianism and anti-catholic views and on the other hand object to republicans doing the same. I also pointed out the silence and selective condemnation when it comes to PUL inspired violence. I would prefer to see no marches but that is probably unrealistic. The overall point I am making is that the PUL community has not grasped what equality or parity of esteem looks like and when faced with a challenge the DUP don't show leadership but pander to the lowest common denominator. Their version of parity is still very much red white in blue in colour. If we are to move on mutual respect for all symbols, cultures and traditions is a must. I just don't see that move coming from Unionism. Critical as I am of SF they do seem to be the voice of reason. I think the SF leadership would have liked to have kept the Castlederg march in Galbally but most likely gave in to local sentiment...I think elements of the DUP made it impossible for SF to back down.

[Maguire01]

To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.

What's the problem with recognition of the GAA? Isn't Casement getting £60m from Westminster? How many GAA grounds have had financial assistance from Sport NI? What more do you want?

[trileacman]

To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.

The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.

No actually I don't see the point of marches of a political or sectarian nature. I was simply pointing up the fact that it is hypocritical to insist that the OO can march where they like glorifying sectarianism and anti-catholic views and on the other hand object to republicans doing the same. I also pointed out the silence and selective condemnation when it comes to PUL inspired violence. I would prefer to see no marches but that is probably unrealistic. The overall point I am making is that the PUL community has not grasped what equality or parity of esteem looks like and when faced with a challenge the DUP don't show leadership but pander to the lowest common denominator. Their version of parity is still very much red white in blue in colour. If we are to move on mutual respect for all symbols, cultures and traditions is a must. I just don't see that move coming from Unionism. Critical as I am of SF they do seem to be the voice of reason. I think the SF leadership would have liked to have kept the Castlederg march in Galbally but most likely gave in to local sentiment...I think elements of the DUP made it impossible for SF to back down.

Who is insisting that the OO can march where they like? Find me one quote of that anywhere in here!

[lynchbhoy]

Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse

As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of  Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.

There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.

Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!

As usual, 9 out of 10 for passion and conviction LB, big fat zero for historical accuracy. And what've you got against the Housing Executive? What did they ever do except provide social housing to people on the basis of need, which was a huge improvement on what went before?

As accurate as personal experience can be in all the other items apart from housing exec - thankfully I never had to rely on them - but close friends mostly ( not all) hadn't much good to say about their and the is bias.
At least your experience ( though from a unionist perspective) is first hand.
Many others are guessing!!