I've four preteen kids. I wondering is it my fault that the second fella came home from school and announced the teachers strike is off because "some man McGuiness is dead" I was a little surprised that he hadn't heard of martin McGuiness he's 11.
I asked them what history they are taught.. they can name the succession of English kings and queens and know about the stone age and iron age but don't know about the GPO or 1916, They're not taught about partition or the hungerstrikers or the peace process..
where do you start? I don't want to embitter them but in my version of history that's inevitable.
So is it "once upon a time there were four green fields?" or there was this fella bobby sands?
Shouldn't the schools be teaching this? or maybe there should be history lessons somewhere that they can go.?
My mother remembers going to vote and unionists/Orangemen spitting on them and trying to trip them up as they entered the polling station is this the type of thing the modern kid needs to know?
I know someone is going say its all at the touch of a button- so is how to cook Chinese food but we all go to the takeaway.
Have you tackled this or what's your best solution
Maybe theyre better off not knowing..
the winners write the histories.
in the south we got the opposite it was 800 years of oppression with a clear line of differentiation between the bad english the good Irish with no grey areas all all irish history stopped with independence, the rest was far to messy.
in secondary school if you studied history for leaving cert it was a little bit more nuanced but huge parts were left out.
i have a great interest in history and hope to pass it on to my kids but i dont think the way ill do it is buy giving my version of history as opposed to what they get at school but rather show them how interesting history can be, from the Celts to the Romans to the local area, bits of everything, exciting stories.
if they take to it then they will become interested in their own history and will want to know more.
I think I was an adult before I ever read anything that set the English conquest and occupation of Ireland in any context except "England bad/evil, poor little Ireland good". No mention of how wider European geopolitics played a role. The Spanish Armada was basically the noble Spanish coming to help out their fellow downtrodden catholics out of the goodness of their hearts.
I guess lawnseed's kids are getting the opposite side of the same coin in the schooling in the north?
Where have you been Lawnseed ?
Quote from: guy crouchback on March 23, 2017, 03:46:38 PM
the winners write the histories.
in the south we got the opposite it was 800 years of oppression with a clear line of differentiation between the bad english the good Irish with no grey areas all all irish history stopped with independence, the rest was far to messy.
in secondary school if you studied history for leaving cert it was a little bit more nuanced but huge parts were left out.
i have a great interest in history and hope to pass it on to my kids but i dont think the way ill do it is buy giving my version of history as opposed to what they get at school but rather show them how interesting history can be, from the Celts to the Romans to the local area, bits of everything, exciting stories.
if they take to it then they will become interested in their own history and will want to know more.
Who lost exactly???
There are no winners or losers in the north, only survivors and victims, the brits never beat us nor us them, look at the GFA for proof.
How do you secure the Union? Make sure children from a nationalist background don't have a clue what happened in the past.
Quote from: Minder on March 23, 2017, 05:32:17 PM
Where have you been Lawnseed ?
well minder ive been to hell in a handcart and back..
the physical health hasn't been so good and following that.. lets say I haven't been myself
I'm back on here hopefully for some decent craic and maybe some sensible debate/conversation.
I genuinely feel ill at ease just now in terms of what's going on around me. brexit shite, Scotland referendum, rhi, unionists in the minority in Stormont, possible nordieland referendum, possible united Ireland... theres just so much going on all at the same time where does a man start?
It seems like I have to start right here and educate my own kids on stuff that has went on during my short life never mind the last hundred years.
We had a curriculum to follow at school and that's that, it's down to kids reading up on it themselves and making a judgement based on their own findings and feelings about it.... never embed your own thoughts but certainly play devils advocate with them over views you differ on... I've two teenage non religious girls who could not give a stuff about the need and current events! Bliss
Quote from: stew on March 23, 2017, 06:25:32 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on March 23, 2017, 03:46:38 PM
the winners write the histories.
in the south we got the opposite it was 800 years of oppression with a clear line of differentiation between the bad english the good Irish with no grey areas all all irish history stopped with independence, the rest was far to messy.
in secondary school if you studied history for leaving cert it was a little bit more nuanced but huge parts were left out.
i have a great interest in history and hope to pass it on to my kids but i dont think the way ill do it is buy giving my version of history as opposed to what they get at school but rather show them how interesting history can be, from the Celts to the Romans to the local area, bits of everything, exciting stories.
if they take to it then they will become interested in their own history and will want to know more.
Who lost exactly???
There are no winners or losers in the north, only survivors and victims, the brits never beat us nor us them, look at the GFA for proof.
the winners write the history books is just a saying, i'm simply saying you will get different interpretations of history based on the perspective you are looking at it from.
How about this for trying to write the history books
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/18/california-lawmaker-wants-schools-to-teach-children-about-alleged-russian-interference-in-election/
Preteen is a bit early for all that I would have thought it's still a fairly basic curriculum at that age. We started to learn about the troubles in 5th year if I remember right and that was only because we were in the NICCEA exam board.
Other schools who were doing a different History exam from the non NI board didn't look at it. I'd be happy enough for kids to know that stuff when they get to 15/16.
My girl (13), is learning about the Troubles next year (3rd year in the North) she said.
I tend to give my 3 kids (13, 10 and 6) only bits and pieces of info and only when they ask.
Quote from: guy crouchback on March 24, 2017, 09:19:18 AM
Quote from: stew on March 23, 2017, 06:25:32 PM
Quote from: guy crouchback on March 23, 2017, 03:46:38 PM
the winners write the histories.
in the south we got the opposite it was 800 years of oppression with a clear line of differentiation between the bad english the good Irish with no grey areas all all irish history stopped with independence, the rest was far to messy.
in secondary school if you studied history for leaving cert it was a little bit more nuanced but huge parts were left out.
i have a great interest in history and hope to pass it on to my kids but i dont think the way ill do it is buy giving my version of history as opposed to what they get at school but rather show them how interesting history can be, from the Celts to the Romans to the local area, bits of everything, exciting stories.
if they take to it then they will become interested in their own history and will want to know more.
Who lost exactly???
There are no winners or losers in the north, only survivors and victims, the brits never beat us nor us them, look at the GFA for proof.
the winners write the history books in just a saying, i'm simply saying you will get different interpretations of history based on the perspective you are looking at it from.
Funnily enough I'd this issue recently as the wee lad was learning about the Irish "famine" (calling it that irks me enough).
He'd to answer questions based on a couple of paragraphs he'd to read and one was "Do you think the government did enough to help the people?"
He was about to answer "Yes, because they set up soup kitchens" and when you read the paragraphs that was indeed in it and very little else.
Then I went off one one, explaining how that whilst the potatoes were diseased that all the other food stuffs were shipped off the east coast of Ireland to England, you had to renounce your catholic faith to get soup in these kitchens and that the Queen of England turned back aid from Turkey as they'd given far more than her and it would embarrass her.
I don't want to blight him with bigotry, but I won't let him get his only understanding of Irish history from text books written with a very British slant.
Give them as much information as possible. You may not be able to get them into it, but have it available at least.
One thing growing up here did for me was give me a very healthy cynicism for anything I was told, especially from official outlets - you'd see stories on the news and you'd know it was rubbish. That remains a problem here - unionists believe what what they were told.
As important as any of the knowledge you might pass on is the awareness that there are differences depending on viewpoint, and at the end of the day we each have to make up our own mind on the 'truth'.
Quotehttps://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Ireland-250-Episodes/
I'm reading this (loo book) at the moment, and it is certainly different to the way I remember (foggily) on how history was taught in National School. Ireland wasn't really a nation at the time of the Spanish Armada; more a collection of self-interested chieftains and warlords, who pissed off English monarchs and colonialists individually and (sometimes) collectively. Interesting and recommended book.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 24, 2017, 09:32:17 AM
How about this for trying to write the history books
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/18/california-lawmaker-wants-schools-to-teach-children-about-alleged-russian-interference-in-election/
Depends on what the investigations find out. Wikileaks and the alleged connections with Russia were certainly a prominent factor in the election.
Its a long way short of the nonsense conservatives have been trying to pile into school history and science curriculums, downplaying slavery for example.
Quote from: J70 on March 24, 2017, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 24, 2017, 09:32:17 AM
How about this for trying to write the history books
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/18/california-lawmaker-wants-schools-to-teach-children-about-alleged-russian-interference-in-election/
Depends on what the investigations find out. Wikileaks and the alleged connections with Russia were certainly a prominent factor in the election.
Its a long way short of the nonsense conservatives have been trying to pile into school history and science curriculums, downplaying slavery for example.
Well that's the point. Wouldn't you wait before insisting anything is amended? But why would a politician be so keen to put it in? Rewriting history before history has even been written.
We were taught the same. Ancient history was interesting, good to know about the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians and so on. But when it got to "modern" history it started in 1485 at the Battle of Bosworth Field and it was all about the English kings thereafter. Luckily we had a teacher who spent a few weeks teaching about Irish history even though it wasn't on the syllabus. It was by far the most interesting part of the course, even though it wasn't official.
Learning about British history is all well and good, but it shouldn't have been at the expense of knowing about the land we lived on.
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 24, 2017, 03:06:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on March 24, 2017, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 24, 2017, 09:32:17 AM
How about this for trying to write the history books
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/18/california-lawmaker-wants-schools-to-teach-children-about-alleged-russian-interference-in-election/
Depends on what the investigations find out. Wikileaks and the alleged connections with Russia were certainly a prominent factor in the election.
Its a long way short of the nonsense conservatives have been trying to pile into school history and science curriculums, downplaying slavery for example.
Well that's the point. Wouldn't you wait before insisting anything is amended? But why would a politician be so keen to put it in? Rewriting history before history has even been written.
Trying to play to his constituency obviously.
It's what politicians do.
What input he has on curriculums and books, I've no idea.
Unlike the Texas school board shower...
I,m worried the school is a hotbed of stoops. I fukn hate the place horrible hoors of teachers. I thinking it's no accident they don't know who Martin mcguinness
Quote from: hardstation on March 24, 2017, 09:57:05 PM
Which subject in school would you expect a preteen kid to learn who Martin McGuinness is?
Also, in all the years since his birth, why has his da not brought up Martin McGuinness? Da must be a soup taking stoop croppyboy.
Martin mcguinness only died a couple of days ago tbh the subject never arose. All they're interested in is football hurling or wifi.. I suppose I expected them to be perhaps talking about this amount their piers
At that age I was used to paisley and Hume and the boys fighting on the telly every night
Quote from: hardstation on March 24, 2017, 10:11:37 PM
Perhaps you grew up surrounded by politics, with a couple of tv channels that had Paisley & Hume on every night. When you have instant access to a bucketful of shit directed entirely at your age group, and you're able to choose what you want on your own tv/ipad or whatever, boring adult stuff isn't really important.
True you nailed it bbc1 2 and itv the neighbours had htv. I'd like them to know some thing. It seems English history is the only thing their school teaches
Is this why the unionists are so dead set against the maze historical museum. are they afraid what went on if put on display to e.g. School groups that it will make them vote Sinn Fein?
My children hate Armagh with a fcukin passion but don't know why. Job done. Now onto Spurs.
Quote from: ONeill on March 24, 2017, 11:01:55 PM
My children are jealous of Armagh with a fcukin passion but don't know why. Job done. Now onto Spurs.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 24, 2017, 10:40:20 PM
Is this why the unionists are so dead set against the maze historical museum. are they afraid what went on if put on display to e.g. School groups that it will make them vote Sinn Fein?
The unionists would like history to go over 1690, then pause until 1923 where it resumes. The Troubles would be explained as "all was rosy in the Ulster garden until the IRA sprang into existence for no reason and just went on a bloody rampage."
It's how they think.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 24, 2017, 11:15:16 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 24, 2017, 10:40:20 PM
Is this why the unionists are so dead set against the maze historical museum. are they afraid what went on if put on display to e.g. School groups that it will make them vote Sinn Fein?
The unionists would like history to go over 1690, then pause until 1923 where it resumes. The Troubles would be explained as "all was rosy in the Ulster garden until the IRA sprang into existence for no reason and just went on a bloody rampage."
It's how they think.
Is there no hope for them eamon?
Which part do you tell your kids about Martin? Bombing shooting killing peacemaker political leader statesman, or other stories too which might not put him in good light??
Quote from: lawnseed on March 24, 2017, 11:34:49 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 24, 2017, 11:15:16 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on March 24, 2017, 10:40:20 PM
Is this why the unionists are so dead set against the maze historical museum. are they afraid what went on if put on display to e.g. School groups that it will make them vote Sinn Fein?
The unionists would like history to go over 1690, then pause until 1923 where it resumes. The Troubles would be explained as "all was rosy in the Ulster garden until the IRA sprang into existence for no reason and just went on a bloody rampage."
It's how they think.
Is there no hope for them eamon?
Not for the current generation of older politicians there isn't. If younger ones can come around to more of a Trevor Ringland sort of attitude then we can get somewhere. Hard to see that happening as long as half the taxpayer-funded education system is outsourced to the catholic church though.
Do Catholic schools only teach British/Unionist versions of history?*
Can't speak for all Catholic schools but from secondary school years 1-3 we got what I think was the early part of GCSE history which was very much English-centric once you got out of the middle ages. (I didn't go on to do history for the last 2 years, but in hindsight I should have.)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 25, 2017, 09:26:25 PM
Can't speak for all Catholic schools but from secondary school years 1-3 we got what I think was the early part of GCSE history which was very much English-centric once you got out of the middle ages. (I didn't go on to do history for the last 2 years, but in hindsight I should have.)
Unless CCEA has changed from a few years ago, for both A-Level and GCSE they have a range of options to choose from for every module. I know at least one of the GCSE modules covered the 60s/70s/80s (not sure which years). At A-Level, all the schools I knew did something along the lines of 1820-1870 Ireland (Emancipation, the Lichfield House Compact, Repeal, the Famine and the Fenians), the 1912-23 period and also different strands of Unionism in the latter 19th century. The fourth module they studied tended to vary.
EDIT: I think there was also a bit at GCSE on the Economic War and Ireland (north and south) during The Emergency.
The CCEA curriculum has either German or American history with a further compulsory module of Irish History from either 1920-1949 or 1965-Good Friday Agreement.