The Palestine thread

[Íseal agus crua isteach a]

Unreal stuff....

http://www.economist.com/node/21566931

A lot of quotes there from the I.D.F. they don't give high enough figures for Palestinian deaths caused by Israel. My brother visited a children's hospital recently in Gaza where it was full of youngsters dying with cancer from contaminated water. Also Gaza has a very high suicide rate caused by a psychological war waged on the Gazan people. The air in Gaza is always full of f16's and drones randomly killing people. The wall which is three times bigger and longer than the Berlin wall. Has a buffer zone if you approach the wall you get shot. Their is also restrictions on how far people can fish of the coast of Gaza before being murdered by the I.D.F. Israel is arguably the most racist sectarian place on earth. I cringe when I hear it being called a democracy.

[Íseal agus crua isteach a]

"Both sides are as bad as each other" is both totally disgusting and morally wrong. An unbelievable comment. If thats how the average observer views what  is happening in Palestine what hope do they have.

[Puckoon]

"Both sides are as bad as each other" is both totally disgusting and morally wrong. An unbelievable comment.

It may be wrong to play the Devil's advocate while people are being murdered and rockets are being fired - but in the interests of furthering the understanding of the "average observer", I feel there are a few points that the very very pro Palestinian fellas on here need to either address - or at a minimum understand how it can look that way.

GHD and I argued quite a bit a few months back about the situation, and I've since tried to dig a little deeper into the history, motives and actions, to try and understand for myself the complexities. I wouldn't say I have succeeded - but I am not prepared to take either the Hasbara as Seafoid likes to say, nor the absolution of Palestinian (Hamas) blame that exists here at 100% face value.

The fact remains that there are two sides to this story. No matter if you're a gaaboarder pro palestine, nor an American real life friend who's pro Israel.

Questions leveled at me in recent days when I have been criticising the Israeli actions include the following.

1. Nally, forgive the wikipedia reference - but since you used it, here is one:
This year alone there have been almost 2000 rockets fired at Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

2. The Hamas Covenant/Charter.
I'd like to think this is outdated - but Hamas refuse to change the wording for "internal reasons" (see "WTF?"). In it, it calls for the the total destruction of the Jews by Jihad, and the "obliteraton or dissolution of Israel". It "calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories".

Question 2 - how does a country deal with an enemy who has embedded in their business plan that your total destruction is their goal?

Now, can anyone see a parallel in these words and in the actions of Israel currently? It seems to me, that both sides would be happy to obliterate the other off the map both in their words and actions. It also seems to me that one side is winning and as such we are up in arms about it. Does Hamas want peace fellas? Or do they want to destroy Israel? What the f**k is going on over there?

There is certainly no spin, nor bias in the death toll - but how about a bit of honesty regarding motivation. Long term motivation and recent history that has led to the present day situation?

I'm all ears.

BTW Seafoid - I enjoyed reading your post yesterday where you added a little detail as to what you think will happen. It was more honest, balanced, informative and less sniperish than anything I've read from you before on the topic.

[give her dixie]

This is footage of the football stadium in Gaza that Israel destroyed a few hours ago.

They have also destroyed several Govenment building. These buildings contain very important records on births deaths etc, etc. Thus wiping out records of their official existence in Palestine

This is pure evil at work before our very eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8amgsXRdZQ

[give her dixie]

3 days go .. This guy's house that has 4 of his kids , his wife and 3 of his brothers.
He used to joke and play with his kids .. on that day he was joking with his kids saying ' I'm mad at you sons, don't talk to me for the whole day ' and went out the house to buy them some sweets.

5 minutes later he heard a massive explosion near his house, he was running like crazy to see what's going on. He found out the whole house being bombed on his kids and wife. He got a heart attack. And fell down on the ground. His small heart couldn't handle seeing anything after what he saw. He couldn't imagine seeing his wife , his kids being killed into parts. 6 hours later he woke up and found his kids over that bed. He went crazy. He lost his mind. He sat beside them and said " Wake up sons I know you're kidding me. This is not funny anymore .. I got you sweets. come on. He thought they will wake up. But they didn't." He lost all his kids, brothers and wife. But He'd never realized that. Because he lost his mind too

[seafoid]

"Both sides are as bad as each other" is both totally disgusting and morally wrong. An unbelievable comment.

It may be wrong to play the Devil's advocate while people are being murdered and rockets are being fired - but in the interests of furthering the understanding of the "average observer", I feel there are a few points that the very very pro Palestinian fellas on here need to either address - or at a minimum understand how it can look that way.

GHD and I argued quite a bit a few months back about the situation, and I've since tried to dig a little deeper into the history, motives and actions, to try and understand for myself the complexities. I wouldn't say I have succeeded - but I am not prepared to take either the Hasbara as Seafoid likes to say, nor the absolution of Palestinian (Hamas) blame that exists here at 100% face value.

The fact remains that there are two sides to this story. No matter if you're a gaaboarder pro palestine, nor an American real life friend who's pro Israel.

Questions leveled at me in recent days when I have been criticising the Israeli actions include the following.

1. Nally, forgive the wikipedia reference - but since you used it, here is one:
This year alone there have been almost 2000 rockets fired at Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

2. The Hamas Covenant/Charter.
I'd like to think this is outdated - but Hamas refuse to change the wording for "internal reasons" (see "WTF?"). In it, it calls for the the total destruction of the Jews by Jihad, and the "obliteraton or dissolution of Israel". It "calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories".

Question 2 - how does a country deal with an enemy who has embedded in their business plan that your total destruction is their goal?

Now, can anyone see a parallel in these words and in the actions of Israel currently? It seems to me, that both sides would be happy to obliterate the other off the map both in their words and actions. It also seems to me that one side is winning and as such we are up in arms about it. Does Hamas want peace fellas? Or do they want to destroy Israel? What the f**k is going on over there?

There is certainly no spin, nor bias in the death toll - but how about a bit of honesty regarding motivation. Long term motivation and recent history that has led to the present day situation?

I'm all ears.

BTW Seafoid - I enjoyed reading your post yesterday where you added a little detail as to what you think will happen. It was more honest, balanced, informative and less sniperish than anything I've read from you before on the topic.

Puckoon

The rockets don't happen in isolation. You have to look at the whole system

There are 10 million people in Greater Israel which is Gaza, Israel, the West Bank and East Jerusalem . 5 million are Jews and 5 million are palestinians. The palestinians are divided into 5 groups- 4 of them live in greater Israel

1 Those with Israeli passports
2 East Jerusalem Palestinians
3 "West Bank" Palestinians
4 Gazans
5 Refugees in other countries
 
Only the crowd in 1 have anything like the same rights as Jews in Israel.

All are discriminated against. East Jerusalem palestinians aren't allowed to build houses and are discriminated against in the jobs market. West Bankers are not allowed to use the roads. Gazans are not given enough to eat. 95% of their water is undrinkable. The sewage system of Gaza was destroyed by Israel in 2009. Their sports facilities are now being bombed.
Refugees in group 5 aren't even allowed into Israel.

The rockets are a symptom of the dysfunction, not a cause.

Regarding your second point

Hamas Foreign Minister: We Accept Two-State Solution With '67 BordersMay 17 2011
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/24/136403918/hamas-foreign-minister-we-accept-two-state-solution-with-67-borders


The problem is not Hamas. The problem is the system and the Zionist insistence that ALL of the land is Jewish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPVTC9frqMA

[southdown]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

The media are winding me up on this.  Headline about bus bomb in Israel with several hurt, further down they mention the 11 Palestinians have been killed.  BBC have been utterly shameful so far in their reporting IMVHO.

[Cold tea]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20425352

The media are winding me up on this.  Headline about bus bomb in Israel with several hurt, further down they mention the 11 Palestinians have been killed.  BBC have been utterly shameful so far in their reporting IMVHO.

+1 David Beckam got more headlines, shameful reporting altogether.

[seafoid]

Israel the loser in all of this

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-s-alibi-for-conceding-to-hamas.premium-1.479369#

"Netanyahu and Lieberman came to power in no small measure because of Operation Cast Lead. The residents of the south voted in their masses for the pair, who had taken Olmert and Livni to task for their failure to get rid of Hamas. The challengers from Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu promised in every setting before the 2009 elections that they would accomplish what Olmert and Livni didn't. Ultimately, their own past criticisms have come crashing into the reality of the present. What remains of their fiery speeches is the understanding of the limits of force.
What remained for Netanyahu to do at the Sde Boker ceremony was present his alibi to the south's residents and Likud's voters. What remained was for him to explain why he was willing to settle for a cease-fire that included concessions to a terrorist organization, rather than overthrowing Hamas as he had promised.
Netanyahu's first line of defense was to underline the accomplishments of the past week. We had hit the leaders of the terrorists, destroyed thousands of missiles, we had hit Hamas installations and restored deterrence. Netanyahu's second line of defense was to explain the complications that made him reluctant to launch a ground operation in Gaza. "Israel is at the heart of an unstable, complex and dangerous region ... and we must act with diplomatic wisdom," he said. His third line of defense was to repeat election promises to residents of the south: We will look after you, repair the damage and give you compensation.

Although the exit strategy from Pillar of Defense is almost identical to the one from Cast Lead, the balance of power it leaves between Israel and Hamas is worse. Rocket fire on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and a parade of Arab foreign ministers to the Gaza Strip, giving legitimacy to Hamas, are just two examples.
"


I would say that losing Stew says it all for Israel

[Puckoon]

Seafoid - I  have dug deep enough to have uncovered the 2008 Hamas statement on accepting the two state solution with 1967 borders. My point is that many who read the news (American news in particular) have not, and that the Hamas decision to not change the charter is no way to garner any kind of western support. Then again, the charter also states that conferences and treaties and talks are all a waste of time and that the only solution is through Jihad. I wish I was making it up. But I'm not.

Far out example:
Catholic Ireland writes a charter stating that the destruction of England, and the obliteration of the protestant people is our goal. Then we say - ah, we don't really mean that literally, its more a figure of speech - but....... we aren't changing it.

You see how it looks? Could you really blame themmuns for not trusting us?

Maybe a different question could be "Are Hamas doing anything to further peace in the area"?


Another question re 1967 - what is your opinion on how that war started and ultimately led to Israel being an occupier for the last 40 years?

[give her dixie]

The BBC have been shameful in their coverage, but hey, what did we really expect.

Just watching the BBC news now and they have had the bus bomb as the headline story.
Several Palestinians, including children have been killed today and it is a non story for the BBC

I don't know if anyone read the Irish News, but BBC NI decided to pull the programme "Shalom Belfast". It was due to be broadcast on Monday night. They are pathetic

Maybe they didn't want to embarrass the people who show their support for Israel, and Gordon from Co Down who converts to a jew and goes to live in a settlement. He says in the show when asked about taking someones house in Palestine: "Their holiday is over. It's time they left"

Here is a short clip from the documentary they decided to shelve

http://www.triplevision.co.uk/2012/02/shalom-belfast/

[seafoid]

Seafoid - I  have dug deep enough to have uncovered the 2008 Hamas statement on accepting the two state solution with 1967 borders. My point is that many who read the news (American news in particular) have not, and that the Hamas decision to not change the charter is no way to garner any kind of western support. Then again, the charter also states that conferences and treaties and talks are all a waste of time and that the only solution is through Jihad. I wish I was making it up. But I'm not.

Far out example:
Catholic Ireland writes a charter stating that the destruction of England, and the obliteration of the protestant people is our goal. Then we say - ah, we don't really mean that literally, its more a figure of speech - but....... we aren't changing it.

You see how it looks? Could you really blame themmuns for not trusting us?

Maybe a different question could be "Are Hamas doing anything to further peace in the area"?


Another question re 1967 - what is your opinion on how that war started and ultimately led to Israel being an occupier for the last 40 years?

Puckoon

Articles 2 & 3 of the constitution were there until a referendum in 1999 once the peace process got underway
They claimed the wee 6 for the republic.  A lot of Prods up there didn't like it but they didn't carpet bomb us.
they didn't destroy Croke Park.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

They went when the time was appropriate. I don't see the big deal about the Hamas Charter given our own history TBH.

The 67 war started because it was always the plan to take all of the land. Egypt was attacked by Israel not vice versa.
They wanted the West Bank post 48 and the shakham plan to take it was formulated in 1963.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08BrEQKn_qo&list=UU2z1N-0W9zMmtMkEnmaSlRQ&index=10&feature=plcp


If they didn't want the land why are there 800,000 settlers there now? 

They thought they could do a repeat of 1948 but they got it wrong.

It is a real Jewish tragedy  , the whole mess. But nobody could stop them. 

People think Israel /Palestine is no different to Northern Ireland 20 years ago  but it isn't.
Israel is like Ulster in 1650.

[Ulick]

The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

Depend on the definition of "rocket". 2000 rockets with 3 fatalities suggest they're about as lethal as the rockets we see fired at the PSNI every July. In fact Malta has more people killed by fireworks every year than are killed by these rockets in Israel.

Question 2 - how does a country deal with an enemy who has embedded in their business plan that your total destruction is their goal?

Ignore them and trust in democracy. The same could be said about the anarchist movement and global capitaism, North Korea and South Korea, RSF/CIRA and Northern Ireland - no one seriously believes Hamas has the ability to inflict more than a few fatalities on Israel never mind total destruction of the state.


On the who started it propaganda war I've found the following enlightening. Basically the rockets fired from Gaza are usually preceeded by fatalities in Gaza from projectiles fired by the Israelis:

http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2012/02/half-story-what-idfspokesperson-leaves.html

"As you can see in the chart [below], increases in the red line, which signifies Palestinian casualties, typically precede increases in the blue line, which signifies launches of projectiles from Gaza. This is particularly evident before the most significant spikes in the blue line. This suggests that Palestinian launches may be explained, in part, as a response to Israeli projectiles which kill or injure Palestinians."

[Puckoon]

The 67 war started because it was always the plan to take all of the land. Egypt was attacked by Israel not vice versa.

This seems to be the crux, wouldn't you say? It also seems to be the area where historical opinons differ regarding the events that led to the attack. As they used to say - get your retaliation in first.

[Puckoon]

The question was - how many rockets do you allow to be fired at your civilian population before you react? Can anyone give an answer to this one?

Depend on the definition of "rocket". 2000 rockets with 3 fatalities suggest they're about as lethal as the rockets we see fired at the PSNI every July. In fact Malta has more people killed by fireworks every year than are killed by these rockets in Israel.

I've often wondered why their success rate is so low. I don't attribute it to them firing off Roman Candles though?