MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

Started by Maguire01, July 24, 2008, 10:15:49 PM

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Should the abortion act be extended to Northern Ireland?

Yes
47 (44.8%)
No
58 (55.2%)

Total Members Voted: 105

mylestheslasher

I have no time for the religious and especially the religious right but on this issue I mostly agree with them. I'm against Abortion except in the most very extreme of circumstances. Therefore I vote No.

hmmm

I wonder what percentage of the No votes are women. Likewise the Yes vote

Evil Genius

Quote from: hmmm on July 25, 2008, 04:43:20 PM
I wonder what percentage of the No votes are women. Likewise the Yes vote
Also the percentage from NI and from the Republic?
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

pintsofguinness

Some points after reading the last few pages:

Agree with Pangur - "Pro choice" = Pro abortion - lets not wrap it up in any flowery language.
To those trying to bringing the argument down the path of contraception - get a grip - if you don't know the difference between sperm and an embryo then it's no wonder you're in favour of abortion. 

Puck
QuoteThe numbers in favour/in need/who've travelled for abortion in the past are just not enough to over come the numbers of those who are prepared to voice all the anti abortion arguments and then bury their heads in the sand when we see the kids abandoned, mis-treated, unloved, living in poverty, raised in abusive homes all because the mother didnt want them, couldnt care for them.
Are you saying in the US, where abortion is freely available, kids are never abandoned, mistreated, unloved, living in poverty or abusive homes? 
Now who's tugging at heart strings?
What's the idea here - lets kill them, their life won't be worth livng anyway?

Now puck, maguire, luder, stephenite - let me ask you a question (a point I've raised before on other threads on this subject but which went unanswered) - if I get a woman pregnant and turn around and tell her I want nothing to do with the baby, he or she will never know who I am and will never get a penny what would you think of me? That I was well within my rights because it's my choice not to be a parent?
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Maguire01

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 25, 2008, 07:31:01 PM
Now puck, maguire, luder, stephenite - let me ask you a question (a point I've raised before on other threads on this subject but which went unanswered) - if I get a woman pregnant and turn around and tell her I want nothing to do with the baby, he or she will never know who I am and will never get a penny what would you think of me? That I was well within my rights because it's my choice not to be a parent?
If the woman wants to go ahead and have the baby, then you have a responsibility - at least financially, to support that child, if not willingly, then through the CSA. If the woman decides to keep the baby, then she has accepted a responsibility to raise the child. Whether you stick around or not after that is up to you really.

pintsofguinness

Quote from: Maguire01 on July 25, 2008, 08:08:40 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 25, 2008, 07:31:01 PM
Now puck, maguire, luder, stephenite - let me ask you a question (a point I've raised before on other threads on this subject but which went unanswered) - if I get a woman pregnant and turn around and tell her I want nothing to do with the baby, he or she will never know who I am and will never get a penny what would you think of me? That I was well within my rights because it's my choice not to be a parent?
If the woman wants to go ahead and have the baby, then you have a responsibility - at least financially, to support that child, if not willingly, then through the CSA. If the woman decides to keep the baby, then she has accepted a responsibility to raise the child. Whether you stick around or not after that is up to you really.

But I have a financial obligation? What if I don't want the baby, I didn't want to be a parent, what if she lied to me, told me she was on the pill?  Surely I should have the same rights as a woman who doesnt want to be a parent? Afterall i would onyl be denying the child a father and x quid a month - not a life.

I find it very odd that men who dont face their parental responsabilities are condemned and are chased by the law and the courts in an attempt to ensure they cant avoid those responsibilities (rightly so imo) but if it's a woman who doesnt want to be a parent then that's fine, have an abortion. 
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Rossfan

Would be a no voteron this one if I lived in the Noth East.
I can't see how killing the most defenceless form of human life can be a human right.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Lazer

Quote from: Puckoon on July 25, 2008, 12:39:12 AM


Quite simply - the people of NI who need abortions, or may some day need abortions, or who are sympathetic to the plight of a pregant woman (who for reasons other than laziness or the desire to use abortion as a freely available form of contraception) who needs an abortion do want abortion to be legalized. Unfortunately if this requires a national vote - the act would never get passed. The numbers in favour/in need/who've travelled for abortion in the past are just not enough to over come the numbers of those who are prepared to voice all the anti abortion arguments and then bury their heads in the sand when we see the kids abandoned, mis-treated, unloved, living in poverty, raised in abusive homes all because the mother didnt want them, couldnt care for them. No point in closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The country really is living in cuckoo land - the number of women sailing over the water for abortion is the only thing that would change with the availability of abortion in NI.




Ever heard of the other option if parents dont want a baby?
1 - dont get yourself in that position in the first place
2 - Not abortion - adoption!!! - there are plenty of couples in NI who want kids and cant have them and would give kids a loving home, the arguement about kids being raised in abusive homes cause abortion isnt available is rubbish - no-one is forced to keep a baby.

Also - no-one is actually in need of an abortion - they choose to have one!

I have talked to a few people from NI - mainly men actually who have kids who freely admit that if abortion had been available they wouldnt have them today cause the women would most likely have had a abortion if they had been freely available. The majority of people in northen Ireland who have kids under less than ideal circumstances are probably glad abortion wasnt legalised here and wouldnt give up their children for anything!

Abortion is simply murder. Just because the child is still in the womb doesnt make killing it right.

In regards to contraception - the morning after pill is abortion as well, however the contraceptive pill also works in the same way - so take note anyone using it the doctors tend not to tell u this. It works in 3 ways and the third way is to prevent a fertilsed egg attaching to the lining of the womb.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 25, 2008, 07:31:01 PM

Now puck, maguire, luder, stephenite - let me ask you a question (a point I've raised before on other threads on this subject but which went unanswered) - if I get a woman pregnant and turn around and tell her I want nothing to do with the baby, he or she will never know who I am and will never get a penny what would you think of me? That I was well within my rights because it's my choice not to be a parent?

I fully agree with this - fathers have no rights and it is a very strange situation, in countries where abortion in legal (which should be none) - a father should have the right to fordid the murder of his child and should be allowed to raise his child.



Down for Sam 2017 (Have already written of 2016!)

pintsofguinness

Quote
I have talked to a few people from NI - mainly men actually who have kids who freely admit that if abortion had been available they wouldnt have them today cause the women would most likely have had a abortion if they had been freely available. The majority of people in northen Ireland who have kids under less than ideal circumstances are probably glad abortion wasnt legalised here and wouldnt give up their children for anything!

Very true - you regularly hear about women having abortions regretting it but how often do you hear women saying they wish they had an abortion?
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Maguire01

Quote from: Rossfan on July 25, 2008, 08:39:38 PM
Would be a no voteron this one if I lived in the Noth East.
I can't see how killing the most defenceless form of human life can be a human right.
MPs will vote as to whether the act is extended.
There is also a big debate as to what stage a fetus becomes human life. Admittedly i'm no expert on this matter, but the argument appears to be around the idea that if a group of cells have no consciousness, are they human life?

Quote from: Lazer on July 25, 2008, 08:49:01 PM
Ever heard of the other option if parents dont want a baby?
1 - dont get yourself in that position in the first place
2 - Not abortion - adoption!!! - there are plenty of couples in NI who want kids and cant have them and would give kids a loving home, the arguement about kids being raised in abusive homes cause abortion isnt available is rubbish - no-one is forced to keep a baby.

Also - no-one is actually in need of an abortion - they choose to have one!
Adoption can be a good alternative, but maybe not in all cases. Are there plenty of willing families ready to adopt? Or would the child end up stuck in a home?
And yes, abortion is a choice - the 'need' is to be able to make that choice. As for 'don't get yourself in that situation in the first place' - patronising, but yes, that would be ideal. But we're discussing situations where the event has happened, not ideal situations.

Quote from: Lazer on July 25, 2008, 08:49:01 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 25, 2008, 07:31:01 PM
Now puck, maguire, luder, stephenite - let me ask you a question (a point I've raised before on other threads on this subject but which went unanswered) - if I get a woman pregnant and turn around and tell her I want nothing to do with the baby, he or she will never know who I am and will never get a penny what would you think of me? That I was well within my rights because it's my choice not to be a parent?

I fully agree with this - fathers have no rights and it is a very strange situation, in countries where abortion in legal (which should be none) - a father should have the right to fordid the murder of his child and should be allowed to raise his child.
I suppose the ball is primarily in the woman's court as she has to carry and give birth to the baby. I'd also imagine that it's a fairly rare scenario where the father is there willing, waiting and capable to look after a baby and the woman decides on a termination. I'd imagine there are far more abortions due to men not being around or no wanting to be around.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 25, 2008, 08:54:23 PM
Quote
I have talked to a few people from NI - mainly men actually who have kids who freely admit that if abortion had been available they wouldnt have them today cause the women would most likely have had a abortion if they had been freely available. The majority of people in northen Ireland who have kids under less than ideal circumstances are probably glad abortion wasnt legalised here and wouldnt give up their children for anything!

Very true - you regularly hear about women having abortions regretting it but how often do you hear women saying they wish they had an abortion?
That's a poor argument. Most people keep these things very private - it's not a public matter. The 'pro-life' movement push examples of the former to the front as par of their propaganda, which they're entitled to do, but i wouldn't take that as any real barometer of truth.




Genuine question here:
The law won't be enforced on anyone, i.e. it won't actually effect you. Why do 'no' voters feel they have the right to deny others taking a course of action that is right for them?
This is the basis for what some people call 'pro-abortion' actually being 'pro-choice' - because only those who choose an abortion will have one.

pintsofguinness

It's dissapointing that you didn't see fit to address my last point maguire
to quote myself
QuoteBut I have a financial obligation? What if I don't want the baby, I didn't want to be a parent, what if she lied to me, told me she was on the pill?  Surely I should have the same rights as a woman who doesnt want to be a parent? Afterall i would onyl be denying the child a father and x quid a month - not a life.

I find it very odd that men who dont face their parental responsabilities are condemned and are chased by the law and the courts in an attempt to ensure they cant avoid those responsibilities (rightly so imo) but if it's a woman who doesnt want to be a parent then that's fine, have an abortion.

Maguire
Quote
There is also a big debate as to what stage a fetus becomes human life. Admittedly i'm no expert on this matter, but the argument appears to be around the idea that if a group of cells have no consciousness, are they human life?
I, for the life of me, don't understand how someone can consider something with a heart beat (at the very least) as not being life.  But whatever suits their agenda.

QuoteThe law won't be enforced on anyone, i.e. it won't actually effect you. Why do 'no' voters feel they have the right to deny others taking a course of action that is right for them?
Because no one should have a right to end a defenceless, innoncent life. 



Week 16


Week 22


Yeah, a collection of cells  ::)
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?


Puckoon

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 25, 2008, 07:31:01 PM
Some points after reading the last few pages:


Puck
QuoteThe numbers in favour/in need/who've travelled for abortion in the past are just not enough to over come the numbers of those who are prepared to voice all the anti abortion arguments and then bury their heads in the sand when we see the kids abandoned, mis-treated, unloved, living in poverty, raised in abusive homes all because the mother didnt want them, couldnt care for them.
Are you saying in the US, where abortion is freely available, kids are never abandoned, mistreated, unloved, living in poverty or abusive homes? 
Now who's tugging at heart strings?
What's the idea here - lets kill them, their life won't be worth livng anyway?


The point is not to terminate "kids" but to have the option of termination of an unwanted pregnancy. You are perfectly right of course that the contraception argument is very thin, but to coin a phrase - if you cant distinguish the difference between early mitotic cell division, and a fetus that can survive on its own - then its no wonder you are anti abortion


Quote from: Lazer on July 25, 2008, 08:49:01 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on July 25, 2008, 12:39:12 AM


Quite simply - the people of NI who need abortions, or may some day need abortions, or who are sympathetic to the plight of a pregant woman (who for reasons other than laziness or the desire to use abortion as a freely available form of contraception) who needs an abortion do want abortion to be legalized. Unfortunately if this requires a national vote - the act would never get passed. The numbers in favour/in need/who've travelled for abortion in the past are just not enough to over come the numbers of those who are prepared to voice all the anti abortion arguments and then bury their heads in the sand when we see the kids abandoned, mis-treated, unloved, living in poverty, raised in abusive homes all because the mother didnt want them, couldnt care for them. No point in closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. The country really is living in cuckoo land - the number of women sailing over the water for abortion is the only thing that would change with the availability of abortion in NI.




Ever heard of the other option if parents dont want a baby?
1 - dont get yourself in that position in the first place
2 - Not abortion - adoption!!! - there are plenty of couples in NI who want kids and cant have them and would give kids a loving home, the arguement about kids being raised in abusive homes cause abortion isnt available is rubbish - no-one is forced to keep a baby.

Also - no-one is actually in need of an abortion - they choose to have one!


In regards to contraception - the morning after pill is abortion as well, however the contraceptive pill also works in the same way - so take note anyone using it the doctors tend not to tell u this. It works in 3 ways and the third way is to prevent a fertilsed egg attaching to the lining of the womb.










There is more to adoption than simply having the child and giving it away. We make it sound so easy. Carrying a child to term is NOT just a walk in the park. Nor can I imagine it would be easy to give that child up. Women who consider abortions are not evil, they are not incapable of loving a child (except perhaps in extenuous circumstances). Perhaps at most you can label them selfish. However, if they make a value judgement and differentiation on the age of the cells vs the first sign of a viable fetus (which I will concede is then human life) , from first impregnation to 2 cells, 4 cells, 8 cells, 16 cells and so on - why shouldnt they be? Provided abortion IMHO is carried out before 12 weeks, it is perfectly acceptable.


This carry on of the pill being abortion - well thats just bullshit.

Maguire01

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 26, 2008, 10:51:21 AM
It's dissapointing that you didn't see fit to address my last point maguire
to quote myself
QuoteBut I have a financial obligation? What if I don't want the baby, I didn't want to be a parent, what if she lied to me, told me she was on the pill?  Surely I should have the same rights as a woman who doesnt want to be a parent? Afterall i would onyl be denying the child a father and x quid a month - not a life.

I find it very odd that men who dont face their parental responsabilities are condemned and are chased by the law and the courts in an attempt to ensure they cant avoid those responsibilities (rightly so imo) but if it's a woman who doesnt want to be a parent then that's fine, have an abortion.
Apologies - i missed your reply, i didn't ignore it.
Surely the difference is that at the stage where men are chased, there is a baby to look after. If the mother gave birth and then dumped the child, she would be chased to provide for it too.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 26, 2008, 10:51:21 AM
Maguire
Quote
There is also a big debate as to what stage a fetus becomes human life. Admittedly i'm no expert on this matter, but the argument appears to be around the idea that if a group of cells have no consciousness, are they human life?
I, for the life of me, don't understand how someone can consider something with a heart beat (at the very least) as not being life.  But whatever suits their agenda.
'Life' and 'Human Life' are not necessarily the same. The images you showed, yes very emotive, but for most arguments, probably accepted as being after the stage where there is a human life rather than a clump of cells, albeit one that could not survive on its own. (Although i accept that for your argument, those images are still within the abortion limits.)


Maguire01

Quote from: pintsofguinness on July 26, 2008, 10:51:21 AM
QuoteThe law won't be enforced on anyone, i.e. it won't actually effect you. Why do 'no' voters feel they have the right to deny others taking a course of action that is right for them?
Because no one should have a right to end a defenceless, innoncent life. 
So your beliefs or morals are more important than those of a woman who wishes to have an abortion?