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With the charges coming, does anyone know where to find the information? 

All sorts of figures about from €60/quarter to €500 year.  Standing charges from €50 to €250 year.  Stories of Poole forgoing showers as they  are afraid of using too much water.

The general rule (in civilised parts) is that it is about the same annual cost as electricity, though they'll have different monthly costs (electicity high in winter, low in summer - water the opposite).  The bigger the household, the bigger the cost, annually, etc.

My electricity costs about €220 every two months. Is that what I'll be facing in Water charges?

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 14, 2014, 02:23:58 PM
My electricity costs about €220 every two months. Is that what I'll be facing in Water charges?

Bottled water would be as cheap.

Electricity is cheap relatively speaking.

There is a lot of hype about water charges. You don't hear of many people nowadays taking cold showers to avoid the cost of putting on the water heater. And whether your bill is similar to your electric bill depends on a lot of things, e.g. what are you using electric for, this might be just lighting and appliances or you might be using it for heating etc.

QuoteBottled water would be as cheap.

Only that Rockwell p1ss!!

People on group water schemes and who pump water from wells and the like have been paying for water for years and didn't get lower tax rates or the like.
The Govt were spinning that the "average" cost per household will be €240 p.a. = €4.80 per week. You wouldn't get a pint for that in some parts of the Country.
I believe the Energy Regulator will be announcing the scale of charges, free allowances and all that in August.

I find it hard to see how people are protesting against this.
It costs to get water to your tap, that has to be paid for, there are massive inefficiencies in the system that need to be fixed but also behavior needs to be addressed, the best way of doing that is through charges per unit.

The only people who should complain are those without drinkable water, which this should solve eventually and I believe they don't have to pay anyway.

Ever think that a lot of the people protesting are probably the same people who will receive free water?

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 14, 2014, 03:40:10 PM
I find it hard to see how people are protesting against this.
It costs to get water to your tap, that has to be paid for, there are massive inefficiencies in the system that need to be fixed but also behavior needs to be addressed, the best way of doing that is through charges per unit.

The only people who should complain are those without drinkable water, which this should solve eventually and I believe they don't have to pay anyway.

There are counter arguments to that though:

How has water been paid for since the founding of the state?
Why is another large semi state body (already surrounded in scandal) required to oversee this?
How believable are they when they say Irish Water won't be privatised down the line? Private water in the UK has been an unmitigated disaster.
What is the rationale for the proposed charges?
How can they justify charges without getting meters into homes?
How to they plan to use the revenue raised to improve the infrastructure?
If they fix the infrastructure, will the charges reduce accordingly?

It's not a black and white argument.

Well I should declare an interest and state that I've worked to Bord Gais in the past. IMO they did a good job with the gas network roll out.

On privatization, they haven't privatized the gas or elec network so no reason to believe they will with water.
The money has to go back into the infrastructure purely because we've had 90 odd years of a system where you got investment for water infrastructure when it was broken, there was no incentive for up keep, run it into the ground and then get government money to rebuild. The infrastructure is in dire shape and will take a long time to fix, I would estimate 15-20 yrs. in theory charges should reduce but it won't be today or tomorrow, if anything they may find the hole we're in is larger than they thought
meters are in their way, not sure what the programme is but I would imagine anyone without a meter will pay less than those with a meter, you have to start somewhere.

If you knew that every cent raised by privatising the water was being put back into making it affordable and reliable for people then i don't think people would have a problem.

When it starts to line fat fockers pockets like politicians and mobile phone magnates then you have to ask questions about in who's interests these charges are for. seems like theres a fair few getting rich off the back of this.

Only thing next is oxygen. I think of Total Recall (the arnie one) when I think of how government will be able in the future to cripple the people with basic needs if they don't toe the line.

When I emigrated to USA, I was surprised to have to pay water charges, as I was accustomed to getting this for free in Ireland. The first leak I had the water authority were able to notify me by the meter reading that I was wasting water and running up my bill. It's the responsible thing for Ireland to do, to invest in water, to meter it. There's lot of things worthy of protest but metering and investing in our water should not be one. Total political opportunism by those parties telling people not to pay.

Quote from: gallsman on October 14, 2014, 03:50:34 PM

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 14, 2014, 03:40:10 PM
I find it hard to see how people are protesting against this.
It costs to get water to your tap, that has to be paid for, there are massive inefficiencies in the system that need to be fixed but also behavior needs to be addressed, the best way of doing that is through charges per unit.

The only people who should complain are those without drinkable water, which this should solve eventually and I believe they don't have to pay anyway.

There are counter arguments to that though:

How has water been paid for since the founding of the state? The point is that it hasn't been properly paid for, hence the state of the network.
Why is another large semi state body (already surrounded in scandal) required to oversee this? That's a different argument. You could have it as a stand-alone organisation and still have charges.
How believable are they when they say Irish Water won't be privatised down the line? Private water in the UK has been an unmitigated disaster. Again, a different argument. And water hasn't been privatised in Scotland (a publicly owned company) or Wales (a not for profit company), despite water charging being in place for some time.
What is the rationale for the proposed charges? There are many - so that people pay for what they use, so that people who don't use don't pay, so that funding is ring-fenced and invested in the infrastructure...
How can they justify charges without getting meters into homes? Not ideal clearly, but in itself, not an argument to rule it out altogether.
How to they plan to use the revenue raised to improve the infrastructure? That will be overseen by the regulator (the CER).
If they fix the infrastructure, will the charges reduce accordingly? As above, charges will be subject to agreement from the regulator and will be based on what IW needs to spend to deliver water, receive sewage, and maintain the network. Some things may reduce costs, such as reducing leakage, whilst other things may increase costs, such as the price of electricity, more stringent environmental regulation etc.

It's not a black and white argument.

See above in bold. There's a lot of info out there already.

Quote from: NetNitrate on October 14, 2014, 06:58:52 PM
When I emigrated to USA, I was surprised to have to pay water charges, as I was accustomed to getting this for free in Ireland. The first leak I had the water authority were able to notify me by the meter reading that I was wasting water and running up my bill. It's the responsible thing for Ireland to do, to invest in water, to meter it. There's lot of things worthy of protest but metering and investing in our water should not be one. Total political opportunism by those parties telling people not to pay.

I average about $80 a month in water charges,  $250 a month in electricity,  $300 a month in health care,  $4000 a year in property taxes and $3000 a year in house insurance.  Taxes are lower but the government will get their share no matter where you live.

Quote from: FL/MAYO on October 14, 2014, 07:47:16 PM

Quote from: NetNitrate on October 14, 2014, 06:58:52 PM
When I emigrated to USA, I was surprised to have to pay water charges, as I was accustomed to getting this for free in Ireland. The first leak I had the water authority were able to notify me by the meter reading that I was wasting water and running up my bill. It's the responsible thing for Ireland to do, to invest in water, to meter it. There's lot of things worthy of protest but metering and investing in our water should not be one. Total political opportunism by those parties telling people not to pay.

I average about $80 a month in water charges,  $250 a month in electricity,  $300 a month in health care,  $4000 a year in property taxes and $3000 a year in house insurance.  Taxes are lower but the government will get their share no matter where you live.

Are you living in the White House?  :o

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 14, 2014, 08:03:38 PM

Quote from: FL/MAYO on October 14, 2014, 07:47:16 PM

Quote from: NetNitrate on October 14, 2014, 06:58:52 PM
When I emigrated to USA, I was surprised to have to pay water charges, as I was accustomed to getting this for free in Ireland. The first leak I had the water authority were able to notify me by the meter reading that I was wasting water and running up my bill. It's the responsible thing for Ireland to do, to invest in water, to meter it. There's lot of things worthy of protest but metering and investing in our water should not be one. Total political opportunism by those parties telling people not to pay.

I average about $80 a month in water charges,  $250 a month in electricity,  $300 a month in health care,  $4000 a year in property taxes and $3000 a year in house insurance.  Taxes are lower but the government will get their share no matter where you live.

Are you living in the White House?  :o

The cost of insurance in Florida is insane due to hurricanes. What would be the average cost of utilities in Ireland these days?

$3,000 a year is relatively inexpensive property tax in US. I live in New York and my property tax is $9,000 per year on a property that would be 250k Euros in Ireland. Water is additional on top of that at about $50 a month or $580 a year. The entitlement mentality in Ireland fueled by the Mary Lou's and left of the world don't know how lucky they have it. And I say that as someone who is left wing in politics.

Lads, we already pay 41% in income tax, and another tax in PRSI and another tax in USC. The problem I have is not that we have to pay for water, per se. It's that we ALREADY pay more in these taxes than most other countries. I lived in the USA as well, and while you paid for this, you had a much lower rate of income tax.

We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
Lads, we already pay 41% in income tax, and another tax in PRSI and another tax in USC. The problem I have is not that we have to pay for water, per se. It's that we ALREADY pay more in these taxes than most other countries. I lived in the USA as well, and while you paid for this, you had a much lower rate of income tax.

We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

Exactly.

Federal income tax in US if you earn between $89k and 186k is 28%. State income tax on top of that is 12%. That's 40% already in taxes before you have to fork out your 9k on property taxes and your $500 in water, not to mention another few grand on social security.

Those looking for free water in Ireland would not last 5 minutes if they had to emigrate and make a living in the US.

Lads I lived over there. You get a lot more disposable income left in your salary after taxes than you do in Ireland. Don't be patronising, some of us have lived over there, and paid taxes over there for several years. I'd take the US tax system in a heartbeat.

Quote from: magpie seanie on October 15, 2014, 02:03:29 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
Lads, we already pay 41% in income tax, and another tax in PRSI and another tax in USC. The problem I have is not that we have to pay for water, per se. It's that we ALREADY pay more in these taxes than most other countries. I lived in the USA as well, and while you paid for this, you had a much lower rate of income tax.

We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

Exactly.

Lads the country is broke, we are beginning to balance the books that is all. We are still paying more out than in (a large amount of that is interest) Think of it as a big cake. It has several ingredients Income tax/USC/PRSI/Water tax/property tax/VAT. All the cake (and some) has to be paid out. Currently we don't have enough ingredients for the cake. You are not been charged twice. If and when we ever get out of debt and we have more ingredients than we need then we will see reductions in tax. I think the US model is different in that the world will keep lending money to it (it's also broke) because if it fails the Sh1t hits the fan.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

gerry. We are not 'technically' being charged twice because there is nothing that specifically says x amount of your PAYE is going to water. However, Water has always been a public service, which is paid for with taxes.

What they are doing now is creating a new tax, for water, while still retaining the other taxes to pay for other stuff, like the bail out. That's my problem with it. In the past 10 years we've had the USC, the Property Tax and now the Water Tax. We already pay income tax, which is supposed to pay for services, in theory at least, PRSI, VAT and Motor Tax (which is supposed to go to road infrastructure). We pay a TV license which is another tax to supplement a different service again.

It seems to be like this, and I accept this is very simplistic.

Gov: Right Johnny, we're going to give you a job, but you're going to have to give a percentage of your salary so that we can keep the country running ok?

Johnny: Ah right. OK, well I suppose that's fair enough. Sure if we all club together we should be able to have things ticking along. How much.

Gov: Well, we'll let you keep the first 20 quid you earn in every 100, and then after that we'll take 41% ok? Lets say you make 100 euro, you'll give us €33 ok?

Johnny : OK, fair enough. That leaves me with €67 and keeps the country running. I like the idea of that.

Gov : Exactly. Now, there is the matter of PRSI. This is just a little amount we take off you to help pay Social welfare and the like, you know just to keep things ticking over. Lets say just €4 of your 100?

Johnny : Another €4? OK. I'd have thought social welfare was part of keeping the country running, but maybe not. OK, we'll say €4. Sure that still gives me €63 out of my 100. Fair enough.

Gov : Exactly. See how it works. You keep the country running for that €37. Now of course it doesn't cover the Universal Social Charge.

J: What's that?

Gov : Ah well, it's this sort of charge that everyone who earns has to pay to help keep the country running.

J: What? Like PAYE and PRSI?

Gov : Oh no, not like them at all. Well, kind of like them. A bit. Anyway, never mind. It's only another say €5 of your €100.

J : OK, so that brings me down to €58 out of my 100. getting saucy now, but sure I suppose it's all being used wisely, and at least it provides for services.

Gov : Heh heh, good one. Ah yeah, it does though. Provides all those public services you need to keep a country going.

J: Great, ok so sure thanks a million. Good luck.

Gov : Eh actually, there's a wee bit more. Hang tough there for a second.

J: Wha?

Gov: Well, there's VAT.

J: What is that?

Gov: It's called Value Added, erm.... eh Tax.

J: Another tax? For what

Gov & J: To keep the country going.

J: OK, ok ok. what is it.

Gov: well this is a bit harder to quantify for you, but lets just say that nearly everything you buy includes a contribution to the state of 13.5% of it's price.

J: Wow. Ok. So if I spend €10 if my poor €58 that's left, €1.35 is going to the government?

Gov : Yep. To keep the country running. It's only fair really. Sure you don't *have* to buy 'stuff'. Like electricity or heating.

J : Hmm.

Gov : OK. And there's a just a couple of others. Water. Property. Vehicle. TV Licence.

J : What????

Gov. : Well yes, these services don't pay for themselves you know. Water costs money. Having your house sitting there in a county costs money. Roads cost money. Ryan Tubridy Costs money. It's not going to pay for itself you ingrate.

J : But Jaysus, what about the 41% tax, or the PRSI, or the USC or the VAT? I thought they were to keep the country running? And I have to pay to get my bin collected by a private company!

Gov : No no no, they're completely different, and any eejit can see you need to pay to get water, a road to drive on and Ryan Tubridy on your telly. I'm not sure what the property tax is for now to be honest.

J : Jaysus. It's a bit steep. But sure I suppose it's to keep the country running.

Gov : Good man.

J : Is that everything?

Gov : Yes. For now. Can't think of anything else, but come here, how much air do you think you breathe every day? Never mind.

J : What will I do with my 2 or 3 cent left over?

Gov : Put it in a bank. To keep the country running.

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:09:20 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

If we don't treat water provision as a service, how will we (or the clowns who are supposed to be running it) ever know what it costs to supply and maintain?  Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.

Quote from: Billys Boots on October 15, 2014, 03:13:48 PM
Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.

He'd probably puck them away.

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:13:07 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:09:20 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

TD pensions for a start.

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:13:07 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:09:20 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

I would like to see efficiencies brought into the public sector which would see the high taxes we already pay used properly. It's unbelieveable really. We keep giving the government money, they keep f**king it away, and they keep coming back to us to give them more under a different guise. I realise I'm only bitching, and I do see the merit in paying for services, but I hate to see wastage, and that's what we are seeing all over the place.

Quote from: Billys Boots on October 15, 2014, 03:13:48 PM
If we don't treat water provision as a service, how will we (or the clowns who are supposed to be running it) ever know what it costs to supply and maintain?  Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.

No problem with that. But just because I give you a tenner doesn't mean you can't tell me you spent €6 on food and €4 on newspapers. I would have thought the department of the environment, or finance, would be able to say exactly how much it costs to supply and maintain the water supply. I shouldn't have to give you another €2 in a different envelope to buy a doughnut because you can't figure out if you spent it as part of the €10 or not.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:26:32 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:13:07 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:09:20 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

I would like to see efficiencies brought into the public sector which would see the high taxes we already pay used properly. It's unbelieveable really. We keep giving the government money, they keep f**king it away, and they keep coming back to us to give them more under a different guise. I realise I'm only bitching, and I do see the merit in paying for services, but I hate to see wastage, and that's what we are seeing all over the place.

+1

If you got an actual breakdown of each service, how much they cost to run without wages/renumerations then you would see the true reflection of the value for money you are getting.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:26:32 PM
I would like to see efficiencies brought into the public sector which would see the high taxes we already pay used properly. It's unbelieveable really. We keep giving the government money, they keep f**king it away, and they keep coming back to us to give them more under a different guise. I realise I'm only bitching, and I do see the merit in paying for services, but I hate to see wastage, and that's what we are seeing all over the place.

But none of the debate is about efficiencies and efficiency is scarcely  mentioned. For instance, there had been no demand whatsoever for the publication of statistics that would allow efficiencies be measured or compared. Northing will change until people focus on the problem areas and insist they be fixed and stop bitching about everything in general.

In any case much of the Irish public provision is "efficient", for instance class size is bigger than elsewhere and less ambulances are used and not much can be done to reduce provision.

Quote from: foxcommanderIf you got an actual breakdown of each service, how much they cost to run without wages/renumerations then you would see the true reflection of the value for money you are getting.

As I said above. However one problem is that any data is routinely abused by the Indo and the like to mislead rather than shed light on the situation.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:07:43 PM
gerry. We are not 'technically' being charged twice because there is nothing that specifically says x amount of your PAYE is going to water. However, Water has always been a public service, which is paid for with taxes.

What they are doing now is creating a new tax, for water, while still retaining the other taxes to pay for other stuff, like the bail out. That's my problem with it. In the past 10 years we've had the USC, the Property Tax and now the Water Tax. We already pay income tax, which is supposed to pay for services, in theory at least, PRSI, VAT and Motor Tax (which is supposed to go to road infrastructure). We pay a TV license which is another tax to supplement a different service again.

It seems to be like this, and I accept this is very simplistic.

Gov: Right Johnny, we're going to give you a job, but you're going to have to give a percentage of your salary so that we can keep the country running ok?

Johnny: Ah right. OK, well I suppose that's fair enough. Sure if we all club together we should be able to have things ticking along. How much.

Gov: Well, we'll let you keep the first 20 quid you earn in every 100, and then after that we'll take 41% ok? Lets say you make 100 euro, you'll give us €33 ok?

Johnny : OK, fair enough. That leaves me with €67 and keeps the country running. I like the idea of that.

Gov : Exactly. Now, there is the matter of PRSI. This is just a little amount we take off you to help pay Social welfare and the like, you know just to keep things ticking over. Lets say just €4 of your 100?

Johnny : Another €4? OK. I'd have thought social welfare was part of keeping the country running, but maybe not. OK, we'll say €4. Sure that still gives me €63 out of my 100. Fair enough.

Gov : Exactly. See how it works. You keep the country running for that €37. Now of course it doesn't cover the Universal Social Charge.

J: What's that?

Gov : Ah well, it's this sort of charge that everyone who earns has to pay to help keep the country running.

J: What? Like PAYE and PRSI?

Gov : Oh no, not like them at all. Well, kind of like them. A bit. Anyway, never mind. It's only another say €5 of your €100.

J : OK, so that brings me down to €58 out of my 100. getting saucy now, but sure I suppose it's all being used wisely, and at least it provides for services.

Gov : Heh heh, good one. Ah yeah, it does though. Provides all those public services you need to keep a country going.

J: Great, ok so sure thanks a million. Good luck.

Gov : Eh actually, there's a wee bit more. Hang tough there for a second.

J: Wha?

Gov: Well, there's VAT.

J: What is that?

Gov: It's called Value Added, erm.... eh Tax.

J: Another tax? For what

Gov & J: To keep the country going.

J: OK, ok ok. what is it.

Gov: well this is a bit harder to quantify for you, but lets just say that nearly everything you buy includes a contribution to the state of 13.5% of it's price.

J: Wow. Ok. So if I spend €10 if my poor €58 that's left, €1.35 is going to the government?

Gov : Yep. To keep the country running. It's only fair really. Sure you don't *have* to buy 'stuff'. Like electricity or heating.

J : Hmm.

Gov : OK. And there's a just a couple of others. Water. Property. Vehicle. TV Licence.

J : What????

Gov. : Well yes, these services don't pay for themselves you know. Water costs money. Having your house sitting there in a county costs money. Roads cost money. Ryan Tubridy Costs money. It's not going to pay for itself you ingrate.

J : But Jaysus, what about the 41% tax, or the PRSI, or the USC or the VAT? I thought they were to keep the country running? And I have to pay to get my bin collected by a private company!

Gov : No no no, they're completely different, and any eejit can see you need to pay to get water, a road to drive on and Ryan Tubridy on your telly. I'm not sure what the property tax is for now to be honest.

J : Jaysus. It's a bit steep. But sure I suppose it's to keep the country running.

Gov : Good man.

J : Is that everything?

Gov : Yes. For now. Can't think of anything else, but come here, how much air do you think you breathe every day? Never mind.

J : What will I do with my 2 or 3 cent left over?

Gov : Put it in a bank. To keep the country running.

You must have a great jobeen to have the time for posting all that .....

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:42:18 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:26:32 PM
I would like to see efficiencies brought into the public sector which would see the high taxes we already pay used properly. It's unbelieveable really. We keep giving the government money, they keep f**king it away, and they keep coming back to us to give them more under a different guise. I realise I'm only bitching, and I do see the merit in paying for services, but I hate to see wastage, and that's what we are seeing all over the place.

But none of the debate is about efficiencies and efficiency is scarcely  mentioned. For instance, there had been no demand whatsoever for the publication of statistics that would allow efficiencies be measured or compared. Northing will change until people focus on the problem areas and insist they be fixed and stop bitching about everything in general.

In any case much of the Irish public provision is "efficient", for instance class size is bigger than elsewhere and less ambulances are used and not much can be done to reduce provision.

Quote from: foxcommanderIf you got an actual breakdown of each service, how much they cost to run without wages/renumerations then you would see the true reflection of the value for money you are getting.

As I said above. However one problem is that any data is routinely abused by the Indo and the like to mislead rather than shed light on the situation.

Is this not precisely what I am saying? If it's not, it's what I am trying to say. I go back to my €10 analogy with Billy there. If you ask me for a €10 per day to keep yourself fed and watered, no pun intended, and then you ask me for €2 more for some food, I'm entitled to ask you what the f**k you spent the tenner on.

Quote from: Rossfan on October 15, 2014, 03:43:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:07:43 PM
gerry. We are not 'technically' being charged twice because there is nothing that specifically says x amount of your PAYE is going to water. However, Water has always been a public service, which is paid for with taxes.

What they are doing now is creating a new tax, for water, while still retaining the other taxes to pay for other stuff, like the bail out. That's my problem with it. In the past 10 years we've had the USC, the Property Tax and now the Water Tax. We already pay income tax, which is supposed to pay for services, in theory at least, PRSI, VAT and Motor Tax (which is supposed to go to road infrastructure). We pay a TV license which is another tax to supplement a different service again.

It seems to be like this, and I accept this is very simplistic.

Gov: Right Johnny, we're going to give you a job, but you're going to have to give a percentage of your salary so that we can keep the country running ok?

Johnny: Ah right. OK, well I suppose that's fair enough. Sure if we all club together we should be able to have things ticking along. How much.

Gov: Well, we'll let you keep the first 20 quid you earn in every 100, and then after that we'll take 41% ok? Lets say you make 100 euro, you'll give us €33 ok?

Johnny : OK, fair enough. That leaves me with €67 and keeps the country running. I like the idea of that.

Gov : Exactly. Now, there is the matter of PRSI. This is just a little amount we take off you to help pay Social welfare and the like, you know just to keep things ticking over. Lets say just €4 of your 100?

Johnny : Another €4? OK. I'd have thought social welfare was part of keeping the country running, but maybe not. OK, we'll say €4. Sure that still gives me €63 out of my 100. Fair enough.

Gov : Exactly. See how it works. You keep the country running for that €37. Now of course it doesn't cover the Universal Social Charge.

J: What's that?

Gov : Ah well, it's this sort of charge that everyone who earns has to pay to help keep the country running.

J: What? Like PAYE and PRSI?

Gov : Oh no, not like them at all. Well, kind of like them. A bit. Anyway, never mind. It's only another say €5 of your €100.

J : OK, so that brings me down to €58 out of my 100. getting saucy now, but sure I suppose it's all being used wisely, and at least it provides for services.

Gov : Heh heh, good one. Ah yeah, it does though. Provides all those public services you need to keep a country going.

J: Great, ok so sure thanks a million. Good luck.

Gov : Eh actually, there's a wee bit more. Hang tough there for a second.

J: Wha?

Gov: Well, there's VAT.

J: What is that?

Gov: It's called Value Added, erm.... eh Tax.

J: Another tax? For what

Gov & J: To keep the country going.

J: OK, ok ok. what is it.

Gov: well this is a bit harder to quantify for you, but lets just say that nearly everything you buy includes a contribution to the state of 13.5% of it's price.

J: Wow. Ok. So if I spend €10 if my poor €58 that's left, €1.35 is going to the government?

Gov : Yep. To keep the country running. It's only fair really. Sure you don't *have* to buy 'stuff'. Like electricity or heating.

J : Hmm.

Gov : OK. And there's a just a couple of others. Water. Property. Vehicle. TV Licence.

J : What????

Gov. : Well yes, these services don't pay for themselves you know. Water costs money. Having your house sitting there in a county costs money. Roads cost money. Ryan Tubridy Costs money. It's not going to pay for itself you ingrate.

J : But Jaysus, what about the 41% tax, or the PRSI, or the USC or the VAT? I thought they were to keep the country running? And I have to pay to get my bin collected by a private company!

Gov : No no no, they're completely different, and any eejit can see you need to pay to get water, a road to drive on and Ryan Tubridy on your telly. I'm not sure what the property tax is for now to be honest.

J : Jaysus. It's a bit steep. But sure I suppose it's to keep the country running.

Gov : Good man.

J : Is that everything?

Gov : Yes. For now. Can't think of anything else, but come here, how much air do you think you breathe every day? Never mind.

J : What will I do with my 2 or 3 cent left over?

Gov : Put it in a bank. To keep the country running.

You must have a great jobeen to have the time for posting all that .....

I write as I speak. A matter of moments.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:26:32 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:13:07 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:09:20 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

I would like to see efficiencies brought into the public sector which would see the high taxes we already pay used properly. It's unbelieveable really. We keep giving the government money, they keep f**king it away, and they keep coming back to us to give them more under a different guise. I realise I'm only bitching, and I do see the merit in paying for services, but I hate to see wastage, and that's what we are seeing all over the place.

And that's before you take into account the oceans of cash being sent to pay back loans/interest to keep the EURO currency afloat I mean "recapitalise the banks". Fcukin jokeshop.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 03:29:02 PM

Quote from: Billys Boots on October 15, 2014, 03:13:48 PM
If we don't treat water provision as a service, how will we (or the clowns who are supposed to be running it) ever know what it costs to supply and maintain?  Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.

No problem with that. But just because I give you a tenner doesn't mean you can't tell me you spent €6 on food and €4 on newspapers. I would have thought the department of the environment, or finance, would be able to say exactly how much it costs to supply and maintain the water supply. I shouldn't have to give you another €2 in a different envelope to buy a doughnut because you can't figure out if you spent it as part of the €10 or not.

You're not ever going to be told because they don't know themselves.  When it was funded from the rates 'purse' they knew what it cost, but since the funding of local government came from the Depts of Finanace and Environment there has been a concerted effort at local level to 'mask' local spending with a view to getting as much as they can - the result is that we can't know what our local services ever cost; that's the real scandal.  The 'privatising' of waste services about 10 years ago removed this from the local purse with (on the whole) positive effects on our personal purses.  Did the funding of local services from the central pot drop? - not a penny.  I'm not arguing that such a scenario is right, but what it does mean that waste is not run on a costed basis, and our citizens are paying what it actually costs to provide the service, not some pie in the sky 'estimate' from someone hiding his ineptitude.

Not sure I disagree with anything there. We're both saying the same thing I think.

Was listening to Newstalk on the way home yesterday. I'm by no means an arch-capitalist but if Brendan Howlin thinks he deserves a pat on the back for reforming the public sector, he can f**k right off. He was challenged by Pat Kenny about creating more red tape and hoops for people to jump through when claiming back the rebate on their water charges. Filling out (incredibly confusing to the average Joe) tax self assessments when the vast majority of the country are PAYE etc.

So many simple efficiencies that could be brought in that they refuse to consider - as a renter in Dublin, I move relatively frequently. This year is the first time I renewed my lease. The only opportunity I have to update my car tax details online is at the point of renewal. Any other time I have to send my log book away to f**king Shannon via snail mail. The automation technology is already in use in the department but they won't f**king extend it and end up creating more red tape and keeping people in redundant jobs. Better yet, scrap motor tax altogether and factor it into the price of fuel. Much f**king simpler.

AZ, you are describing the water services as they are as if they were some kind of cohesive system.

It's not, the problem with the water services is that it's maintenance was funded through county rates, the county council had no incentive to maintain the system because it cost them money. Instead they let the system fall into ruin at which point the dept of environment would fund a refurb.
So we were never taxed centrally for this, environment had an ad hoc funding mechanism for it, surely you can see this is highly ineffective and that a central body with a ring fenced funding and a good background in network development will be infinitely more efficient.

It's the exact same arrangement as the gas and elec network, people and industry pay a pro-rata charge for usage based on their throughput. People don't complain about it because that's the way it's always been.

As someone said, there's lots to be complaining about, this isn't one of them

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 15, 2014, 04:18:40 PM
AZ, you are describing the water services as they are as if they were some kind of cohesive system.

It's not, the problem with the water services is that it's maintenance was funded through county rates, the county council had no incentive to maintain the system because it cost them money. Instead they let the system fall into ruin at which point the dept of environment would fund a refurb.
So we were never taxed centrally for this, environment had an ad hoc funding mechanism for it, surely you can see this is highly ineffective and that a central body with a ring fenced funding and a good background in network development will be infinitely more efficient.

It's the exact same arrangement as the gas and elec network, people and industry pay a pro-rata charge for usage based on their throughput. People don't complain about it because that's the way it's always been.

As someone said, there's lots to be complaining about, this isn't one of them

You're missing the point. We paid money for public services including Water. This is what our taxes are for. The fact that this money was wasted, or spent inefficiently is my issue with it.

Now we are getting a body specifically set up to handle this, that's good. Unfortunately we are having to pay ADDITIONAL monies for this body to operate, rather than being able to simply allocate the requisite funds from the public coffers, as we would be able to do if there was any proper accounting going on.

It's an absolute disgrace that the government cannot say, 'we have allocated €600 million from the central coffers for the provision of water, and this will be run under the auspices of Irish Water'. Instead they are saying 'We're keeping the money ye thought ye were paying for public services, but we've squandered because we haven't a clue how we spent it, and now ye have to pay extra for this service'.

....and no delivery of a fully efficient service despite increased taxes on it....

Just wait until Irish Water get going. I've (unfortunately) had dealings with them already and lets just say they were less than satisfactory. The clown that left Sligo County Council in millions of debt (former County Manager) walked into a big job there (I have heard it said that he is/was the right political colour). His track record in Sligo would suggest nothing but a catastrophe. His time as county manager descended into complete farce.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 04:28:32 PM
You're missing the point. We paid money for public services including Water. This is what our taxes are for. The fact that this money was wasted, or spent inefficiently is my issue with it.

Now we are getting a body specifically set up to handle this, that's good. Unfortunately we are having to pay ADDITIONAL monies for this body to operate, rather than being able to simply allocate the requisite funds from the public coffers, as we would be able to do if there was any proper accounting going on.

It's an absolute disgrace that the government cannot say, 'we have allocated €600 million from the central coffers for the provision of water, and this will be run under the auspices of Irish Water'. Instead they are saying 'We're keeping the money ye thought ye were paying for public services, but we've squandered because we haven't a clue how we spent it, and now ye have to pay extra for this service'.

What you are losing sight of here is that Irish people in general have not been paying enough to run the government services since the mid 90s, the services were being substantially funded by stamp duty etc raised from borrowed money. While there are real issues with efficiency, the taxes collected are simply not sufficient to provide all the services, especially those like water that are charged for elsewhere.

But the point is that there was no cohesive plan or spend on water prior to this, it's new!

As for Magpies point, I would say that every kind of shite has been thrown into Irish water, from what I know you have a good crew from Bord Gais that are used to managing large scale development projects and then you have every useless operational f**ker with long service and huge pension gone in from Bord Gais and the local authorities. It will take a lot to sort that out, apparently very frustrating for the good people that are in there.

Magpie, much as you'd like to use appointments to beat FG, I honestly believe that there were no political appointments in IW but rather an off loading but local authorities, if ur man is as useless as you say then you have your answer, someone bright in Sligo Co Co saw an opportunity to get rid

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 04:28:32 PM

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 15, 2014, 04:18:40 PM
AZ, you are describing the water services as they are as if they were some kind of cohesive system.

It's not, the problem with the water services is that it's maintenance was funded through county rates, the county council had no incentive to maintain the system because it cost them money. Instead they let the system fall into ruin at which point the dept of environment would fund a refurb.
So we were never taxed centrally for this, environment had an ad hoc funding mechanism for it, surely you can see this is highly ineffective and that a central body with a ring fenced funding and a good background in network development will be infinitely more efficient.

It's the exact same arrangement as the gas and elec network, people and industry pay a pro-rata charge for usage based on their throughput. People don't complain about it because that's the way it's always been.

As someone said, there's lots to be complaining about, this isn't one of them

You're missing the point. We paid money for public services including Water. This is what our taxes are for. The fact that this money was wasted, or spent inefficiently is my issue with it.

Now we are getting a body specifically set up to handle this, that's good. Unfortunately we are having to pay ADDITIONAL monies for this body to operate, rather than being able to simply allocate the requisite funds from the public coffers, as we would be able to do if there was any proper accounting going on.

It's an absolute disgrace that the government cannot say, 'we have allocated €600 million from the central coffers for the provision of water, and this will be run under the auspices of Irish Water'. Instead they are saying 'We're keeping the money ye thought ye were paying for public services, but we've squandered because we haven't a clue how we spent it, and now ye have to pay extra for this service'.

Surely the point is you didn't pay enough to cover the cost of providing a proper service and maintaining the infrastructure? Or, more accurately, you didn't pay enough to over the cost of providing a proper service, maintaining the infrastructure AND providing all the other public services.

Now you could pay for water from the level of general taxation that is currently paid. But to do it properly, address historic capital underinvestment, address poor water quality in parts of the country, address increasingly stringent environmental standards, and secure water supply for certain areas (such as Dublin) for the future, you need to direct a lot more money to water than has historically been the case.

What other public services therefore, do you take money from in order to fund this? (Please don't mention TD pensions, as someone else has - a mere distraction and a drop in the ocean.)

Not sure where your info is coming from by The water company people I know believe there was prob enough money already collected to address what you say and fix existing issues - but true to form, the inefficiencies in the service /civil service etc wasted the money

The water charges have been set up to enable another stream of revenue/taxation
I'm not against it but I despise the inefficient running and mishandling of yet another service in this country

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 02:14:40 PM
Lads I lived over there. You get a lot more disposable income left in your salary after taxes than you do in Ireland. Don't be patronising, some of us have lived over there, and paid taxes over there for several years. I'd take the US tax system in a heartbeat.

AZ, when you add up all the taxes and surcharges etc what percentage approximately are you paying out to the government?

I just went through my own pay stub, and it worked out at 42% in deductions when you count in federal tax, medicare, social security etc. that's not counting property taxes. Luckily there is no state or local tax in Fl. People in  states such as New York must be paying close to 55% in taxes when you add in their property, state and local taxes. I wont even mention the cost of third level education over here compared to Ireland. The U.S tax system isn't that great either.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 15, 2014, 10:36:17 PM
Not sure where your info is coming from by The water company people I know believe there was prob enough money already collected to address what you say and fix existing issues - but true to form, the inefficiencies in the service /civil service etc wasted the money

The water charges have been set up to enable another stream of revenue/taxation
I'm not against it but I despise the inefficient running and mishandling of yet another service in this country

Well at least now it will be transparent. We'll know how much is being spent on water and what we'll be getting for it. We won't have to rely on what your mates believe was "probably" the case.

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 15, 2014, 09:23:06 PM
What other public services therefore, do you take money from in order to fund this? (Please don't mention TD pensions, as someone else has - a mere distraction and a drop in the ocean.)

If you look at running public services a little more efficiently and stop unnecessary spending then you would claw back a lot.
Look at the projects such as e-voting machines - could do with that 60 million now. At the time it was just seen as "plenty more where that came from"

Pensions are only one smaller cut that is needed. Why does Alan Dukes or Bertie deserve guaranteed incomes of that size. Didn't they get a huge salary while in office?
Dukes pulls in 130k a year from his pension. Insignificant?? How many water bills are needed cover this cost?
How many are getting these nice sums every year?

it's a new tax. don't try call it a service charge.

My last water bill was $487 ( bi monthly) in San Diego  :'(

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 15, 2014, 05:12:37 PM
But the point is that there was no cohesive plan or spend on water prior to this, it's new!

As for Magpies point, I would say that every kind of shite has been thrown into Irish water, from what I know you have a good crew from Bord Gais that are used to managing large scale development projects and then you have every useless operational f**ker with long service and huge pension gone in from Bord Gais and the local authorities. It will take a lot to sort that out, apparently very frustrating for the good people that are in there.

Magpie, much as you'd like to use appointments to beat FG, I honestly believe that there were no political appointments in IW but rather an off loading but local authorities, if ur man is as useless as you say then you have your answer, someone bright in Sligo Co Co saw an opportunity to get rid

I'm an equal opportunities beater when it comes to croneyism. On this occasion it is FG but FF and Lab have proven consistently down the year to be equally adept at it, especially the former. If you think there are no political appointments in Irish Water I'd strenuosly but respectfully disagree. I have no proof of course but if it looks like a duck....

A quick bit of research on our former county manager will show I'm not exaggerating. It's a pity he wasn't got rid of sooner.

Heard on the news this morning that there are serious issues with the complaints process with Irish Water, Joan Burton on about it. I'm obviously not alone. It's going to be a shambles.

If they spent the money on fixing the infrastructure there would be very little cost involved in providing water. That's not wishful thinking by me, I've seen several academics on TV say this.

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 15, 2014, 09:23:06 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 15, 2014, 04:28:32 PM

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 15, 2014, 04:18:40 PM
AZ, you are describing the water services as they are as if they were some kind of cohesive system.

It's not, the problem with the water services is that it's maintenance was funded through county rates, the county council had no incentive to maintain the system because it cost them money. Instead they let the system fall into ruin at which point the dept of environment would fund a refurb.
So we were never taxed centrally for this, environment had an ad hoc funding mechanism for it, surely you can see this is highly ineffective and that a central body with a ring fenced funding and a good background in network development will be infinitely more efficient.

It's the exact same arrangement as the gas and elec network, people and industry pay a pro-rata charge for usage based on their throughput. People don't complain about it because that's the way it's always been.

As someone said, there's lots to be complaining about, this isn't one of them

You're missing the point. We paid money for public services including Water. This is what our taxes are for. The fact that this money was wasted, or spent inefficiently is my issue with it.

Now we are getting a body specifically set up to handle this, that's good. Unfortunately we are having to pay ADDITIONAL monies for this body to operate, rather than being able to simply allocate the requisite funds from the public coffers, as we would be able to do if there was any proper accounting going on.

It's an absolute disgrace that the government cannot say, 'we have allocated €600 million from the central coffers for the provision of water, and this will be run under the auspices of Irish Water'. Instead they are saying 'We're keeping the money ye thought ye were paying for public services, but we've squandered because we haven't a clue how we spent it, and now ye have to pay extra for this service'.

Surely the point is you didn't pay enough to cover the cost of providing a proper service and maintaining the infrastructure? Or, more accurately, you didn't pay enough to over the cost of providing a proper service, maintaining the infrastructure AND providing all the other public services.

Now you could pay for water from the level of general taxation that is currently paid. But to do it properly, address historic capital underinvestment, address poor water quality in parts of the country, address increasingly stringent environmental standards, and secure water supply for certain areas (such as Dublin) for the future, you need to direct a lot more money to water than has historically been the case.

What other public services therefore, do you take money from in order to fund this? (Please don't mention TD pensions, as someone else has - a mere distraction and a drop in the ocean.)

I disagree. I think we do pay enough to provide these services, but because of inefficiency and wastage, it's not covering the 'costs'. Hence my disgust that nobody seems to be able to tell the country where exactly the money is being spent. How much would a proper water service cost? How much is currently allocated from the public coffers. How is this spent? Where is the leak (of money)? It's not just water. We're now paying separate taxes for Roads, TV, Social Welfare, 'Property' and Water. What services are provided by the PAYE, VAT and USC monies? How is this spent? where are the accounts?

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 16, 2014, 09:24:25 AM
I disagree. I think we do pay enough to provide these services, but because of inefficiency and wastage, it's not covering the 'costs'.

On what is this belief based? For instance in water countries with higher taxes generally, like Sweden, also charge more for water.

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 16, 2014, 09:24:25 AMHence my disgust that nobody seems to be able to tell the country where exactly the money is being spent. How much would a proper water service cost? How much is currently allocated from the public coffers. How is this spent? Where is the leak (of money)? It's not just water. We're now paying separate taxes for Roads, TV, Social Welfare, 'Property' and Water. What services are provided by the PAYE, VAT and USC monies? How is this spent? where are the accounts?

There are high level accounts, badly presented ones that are difficult to comprehend for the most part. But of course the devil is in the detail. One of the sad things about this crisis is there have been no real data improvements to determine whether the money is being spent efficiently. This suits everyone, the government can more easily pull political stunts, the opposition and the media can continue to rant in general terms about waste according to whatever agenda they have at that time without ever having to prove anything or differentiate between the things that are waste and those that are not.  In footballing terms, if you want to improve a team it is no use saying that they are "no good", you need to see is their defence good, their midfield, their forwards, their fitness etc.   

Exactly. But that's not what we are getting. What we are getting is it is 'no good' so we're doing it differently.

I'd like to see WHY it's 'no good'. Were the existing departments just wasting money, or were they being starved of money because there wasn't enough in the pot.

If it's the former, then we shouldn't have an extra charge, we should just give the money to Irish Water and tell them to use it properly.
If it's the latter, then maybe we didn't need a new board, but we did need extra funds. Those funds are either from the existing central coffers or a new tax.

The problem is that we are being asked to take it as read that we haven't been contributing enough, and therefore we need to contribute more. Where is the proof, in accounting terms?

Again, I have no problem paying fairly for services, and have no problem with a properly metered solution. However until someone can prove to me the need for supplementary funds, or actually a brand new income stream, while maintaining existing levels of general taxation then I consider this a symptom of inefficiency and wastage.

Surely any project manager worth his or her salt would be able to say

It will cost €x euro for us to upgrade the network.
It will cost €y euro for us to maintain the network and water quality per annum.

Therefore we need a budget of €x + €y million now, and €y million per annum after the initial capital investment.
We currently allocate €z to water services from the central exchequer per annum.

Therefore we have a shortfall of €a million for the upgrade, and €b million per annum.

We forecast additional water charges will bring in €c per annum.

That's hardly too much to expect is it?

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 15, 2014, 11:02:09 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 15, 2014, 10:36:17 PM
Not sure where your info is coming from by The water company people I know believe there was prob enough money already collected to address what you say and fix existing issues - but true to form, the inefficiencies in the service /civil service etc wasted the money

The water charges have been set up to enable another stream of revenue/taxation
I'm not against it but I despise the inefficient running and mishandling of yet another service in this country

Well at least now it will be transparent. We'll know how much is being spent on water and what we'll be getting for it. We won't have to rely on what your mates believe was "probably" the case.

how will you prove efficiency?

I agree, but the problem is that the numbers you're asking for are not available - and the people who can shed light on the situation are not doing so, and won't. 

It's a mess that is indicative of the problem with our public services - no accountability, no ownership, no responsibility.  And the typical response of our electorate - shoot the messenger and votes for the gobshites, again and again. 

Quote from: Billys Boots on October 16, 2014, 11:51:59 AM
our public services - no accountability, no ownership, no responsibility.  And the typical response of our electorate - shoot the messenger and votes for the gobshites, again and again.

Who is the messenger that was "shot" and who are the gobshites that we vote for again and again?

Quote from: Billys Boots on October 16, 2014, 11:51:59 AM
I agree, but the problem is that the numbers you're asking for are not available - and the people who can shed light on the situation are not doing so, and won't. 

It's a mess that is indicative of the problem with our public services - no accountability, no ownership, no responsibility.  And the typical response of our electorate - shoot the messenger and votes for the gobshites, again and again.

Completely agree with all of that
But
What choices do we have in elections!!!

Independents will be bribed to join up with status quo
That leaves only sf - but they won't get enough votes from the traditional ff/fg people to win them anything

We seriously need a new party or revolution
Or a dictator
Heil micheal o'leary

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 16, 2014, 08:09:21 PM
We seriously need a new party or revolution
Or a dictator
Heil micheal o'leary

Be careful what you wish for  :o
That was the cry in Germany c 1932

Quote from: Rossfan on October 16, 2014, 09:00:13 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 16, 2014, 08:09:21 PM
We seriously need a new party or revolution
Or a dictator
Heil micheal o'leary

Be careful what you wish for  :o
That was the cry in Germany c 1932

I'd rather Michael O'Leary than the despot which is Inda.

At least you know O'Leary will deliver bang for buck and not tolerate incompetence.

Discussion on another thread about wells, can anyone confirm you don't need to pay water charges if you have your own supply (in the north)?

If so could anyone recommend a company which could test water from an old well to see if it is fit for human consumption?

Is yours a commercial property Leo? If not you shouldn't be paying wTer charges in the north.

You can use a few different companies to test the water.

http://www.testmywater.co.uk/epages/es635543.mobile/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es635543

Quote from: foxcommander on October 16, 2014, 09:57:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on October 16, 2014, 09:00:13 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 16, 2014, 08:09:21 PM
We seriously need a new party or revolution
Or a dictator
Heil micheal o'leary

Be careful what you wish for  :o
That was the cry in Germany c 1932

I'd rather Michael O'Leary than the despot which is Inda.

At least you know O'Leary will deliver bang for buck and not tolerate incompetence.

(http://oaks.nvg.org/h/homskrim.jpg)

Quote from: foxcommander on October 16, 2014, 09:57:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on October 16, 2014, 09:00:13 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 16, 2014, 08:09:21 PM
We seriously need a new party or revolution
Or a dictator
Heil micheal o'leary

Be careful what you wish for  :o
That was the cry in Germany c 1932

I'd rather Michael O'Leary than the despot which is Inda.

At least you know O'Leary will deliver bang for buck and not tolerate incompetence.

Like Hitler, Pol Pot, Kim il Sung and son. grandson etc and all the others of that ilk.
At least Kenny was elected to his position and even if he goes there will still be Water Charges, Property Tax, PAYE, VAT, PRSI, USC, Excise duties etc etc.

Quote from: Rossfan on October 17, 2014, 12:35:55 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 16, 2014, 09:57:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on October 16, 2014, 09:00:13 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 16, 2014, 08:09:21 PM
We seriously need a new party or revolution
Or a dictator
Heil micheal o'leary

Be careful what you wish for  :o
That was the cry in Germany c 1932

I'd rather Michael O'Leary than the despot which is Inda.

At least you know O'Leary will deliver bang for buck and not tolerate incompetence.

Like Hitler, Pol Pot, Kim il Sung and son. grandson etc and all the others of that ilk.
At least Kenny was elected to his position and even if he goes there will still be Water Charges, Property Tax, PAYE, VAT, PRSI, USC, Excise duties etc etc.

Inda was elected to his position due to circumstances.
His party got voted into power due to incompetence by the incumbents
Inda was leader due to lack of courage of his party to get rid of him. Richard Bruton would have been a better leader imo.

Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Ok I'll bite.

Please show us where the wicked humour is.

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Ok I'll bite.

Please show us where the wicked humour is.

I'll stick to "Knock Knock" jokes for you in the future.

AZ, you're looking for information that just isn't there. There are no drawings of what pipes are there, even the location of some are guess work, no idea what state the pipes are in, where the leaks are.
It will take years to get a cohesive system in place.
Probably the worst thing that IW could do is come out with an ill informed estimate, too low and it'll be used as a stick to beat them down the line, too high and you'll have people saying it could be done cheaper in Scandanivia/Germany why can't it be done here.
The info just isn't there for future spend estimates, it's suck it and see I'm afraid. It's a complete shambles, fixing it is a huge operation.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Ok I'll bite.

Please show us where the wicked humour is.

I'll stick to "Knock Knock" jokes for you in the future.

I see. It was a knock knock joke.

Very good.

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Ok I'll bite.

Please show us where the wicked humour is.

I'll stick to "Knock Knock" jokes for you in the future.

I see. It was a knock knock joke.

Very good.

You must be a regular patron at the comedy club.

I'll tell you a better joke. Fine Gael.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 06:12:41 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Ok I'll bite.

Please show us where the wicked humour is.

I'll stick to "Knock Knock" jokes for you in the future.

I see. It was a knock knock joke.

Very good.

You must be a regular patron at the comedy club.

I'll tell you a better joke. Fine Gael.

I thought you were the joker.

And yes they are a joke, along with just about every other political party on this island.

The boom/bust cycles are deliberately started by Governments/Presidents seeking re-election. I am not sure if we can afford this form of Government anymore.

But I have no idea what to replace it with.

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 06:22:11 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 06:12:41 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:40:55 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:28:58 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:20:38 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 05:13:46 PM

Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2014, 05:04:43 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 04:54:26 PM
Pol Pot or Inda Kenny...hmmm - one of these leaders tortures his people with unjust actions and mindless policies and the other was the premier of Cambodia. Tough choice.

Really?  ::)

I'd say there are millions of dead Cambodians who would have loved to have the opportunity to make idiotic comparisons like that.

I take it your humour bypass operation was a success?

Ok I'll bite.

Please show us where the wicked humour is.

I'll stick to "Knock Knock" jokes for you in the future.

I see. It was a knock knock joke.

Very good.

You must be a regular patron at the comedy club.

I'll tell you a better joke. Fine Gael.

I thought you were the joker.

And yes they are a joke, along with just about every other political party on this island.

The boom/bust cycles are deliberately started by Governments/Presidents seeking re-election. I am not sure if we can afford this form of Government anymore.

But I have no idea what to replace it with.

What would you say to secret ballots at dail. One of the problems is the fear of "party whips".

The people should elect candidates based on their prior public service track record to implement changes and get the job done, not because they've managed the Galway and Mayo football team for example or because his grandfather also was a TD years ago.

If you had 166 intelligent, conscientious and hard working people working together driving through changes, giving them the ability to think and vote based on the issue at hand would that not be a bigger benefit to the country? Party politics over the last few years has done nothing to enhance the country.

right now it's just an exercise to stay in power by all means necessary to stay on the gravy train.

Also clear out the decks at the seanad for a start. anyone planted by a political party should be removed.
These should be the people to ratify the sanity of the other house's decision. Right now it's a retirement home for the incapable or a foster home for those who don't get elected.

I'd agree with clearing the Seanad. But we actually voted to keep it for some reason. If Enda had a referendum to keep it open, he might have got it closed.

I would also begin emptying the various quangos of their political appointees. Bertie and Harney made over 700 appointments between them, according to Shane Ross (who I would also get rid of).

Can but dream. Can't see common sense prevailing any time soon.

I'd love to see some anonymous vote taken of all TD's to see how many actually back the water charges. Add in the senate too so the figures would be a little harder to make out party allegiances (thus no repercussions).

Quote from: supersarsfields on October 17, 2014, 10:06:28 AM
Is yours a commercial property Leo? If not you shouldn't be paying wTer charges in the north.

You can use a few different companies to test the water.

http://www.testmywater.co.uk/epages/es635543.mobile/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es635543

Cheers, it is not commercial but I can see water charges coming down the line so I would want to have an "existing" supply when and if that time comes.
We are at the end of the line and fairly high do the mains supply is not perfect.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 07:13:41 PM
Can but dream. Can't see common sense prevailing any time soon.

I'd love to see some anonymous vote taken of all TD's to see how many actually back the water charges. Add in the senate too so the figures would be a little harder to make out party allegiances (thus no repercussions).

None I'd say.

They along with lots of other crap came with the IMF/EU bailout.

We owe them money for years to come: http://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/euimf-programme/ (http://www.ntma.ie/business-areas/funding-and-debt-management/euimf-programme/)

Both the Government and the Opposition are insulting us by pretending that either can change whatever they want. They can't.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 06:41:02 PM
What would you say to secret ballots at dail. One of the problems is the fear of "party whips".

And the party you seem to favour cracks it the hardest.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 17, 2014, 06:41:02 PM
The people should elect candidates based on their prior public service track record to implement changes and get the job done, not because they've managed the Galway and Mayo football team for example or because his grandfather also was a TD years ago.

What exact job are you talking about? Serious question. Because there are probably several different answers, depending on who you ask.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-staff-bonuses-jarring-says-alex-white-1.1970108

€188 for the 1st hour for a call out to fix a leak? So if we're paying to fix the leaks then what's the point of Irish Water? I thought it was in order to fund improvement in the water system?

In a situation where you have a septic tank but no metre and you are aware of a leak then it would be cheaper to ignore the leak and just pay the flat rate. I love Irish semi state "efficiency".

Quote from: mikehunt on October 20, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-staff-bonuses-jarring-says-alex-white-1.1970108

€188 for the 1st hour for a call out to fix a leak? So if we're paying to fix the leaks then what's the point of Irish Water? I thought it was in order to fund improvement in the water system?

Why would Irish Water (and by extension, all its other customers) pay to fix a leak on your property? Do you expect them to fix the drip on your kitchen tap? Call a plumber if you can get it fixed cheaper.

Quote from: mikehunt on October 20, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
In a situation where you have a septic tank but no metre and you are aware of a leak then it would be cheaper to ignore the leak and just pay the flat rate. I love Irish semi state "efficiency".

The septic tank part is irrelevant as sewage charges are based on the water meter reading, so if you're not metered for water, it doesn't matter what's happening your waste. And i'm no scientist, but if the pipe supplying water to your house was cracked, would there not be a risk of contamination? That'd be reason enough for me to get it repaired.

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 21, 2014, 07:55:15 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on October 20, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-staff-bonuses-jarring-says-alex-white-1.1970108

€188 for the 1st hour for a call out to fix a leak? So if we're paying to fix the leaks then what's the point of Irish Water? I thought it was in order to fund improvement in the water system?

Why would Irish Water (and by extension, all its other customers) pay to fix a leak on your property? Do you expect them to fix the drip on your kitchen tap? Call a plumber if you can get it fixed cheaper.

Quote from: mikehunt on October 20, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
In a situation where you have a septic tank but no metre and you are aware of a leak then it would be cheaper to ignore the leak and just pay the flat rate. I love Irish semi state "efficiency".

The septic tank part is irrelevant as sewage charges are based on the water meter reading, so if you're not metered for water, it doesn't matter what's happening your waste. And i'm no scientist, but if the pipe supplying water to your house was cracked, would there not be a risk of contamination? That'd be reason enough for me to get it repaired.

We are now paying twice for water, the least they could do is offer to shore up all leaks as a gesture of goodwill, or failing that offer to fix at a reasonable price. Isn't the point of it all to improve the infratstructure? Fixing leaks would be a start.

You're missing my point about the septic tank. with a septic tank water charges are half of that of a sytem without a septic tank. In this case the charges would be about €200. Now if you had a leak in your mains supply but no metre then to get the leak fixed would cost €188. My point (for the hard of learning) is that you're better off just ignoring the leak as the charge will be the same. This, again goes against the concept of providing an efficient water supply.

Quote from: mikehunt on October 22, 2014, 02:57:38 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 21, 2014, 07:55:15 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on October 20, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-water-staff-bonuses-jarring-says-alex-white-1.1970108

€188 for the 1st hour for a call out to fix a leak? So if we're paying to fix the leaks then what's the point of Irish Water? I thought it was in order to fund improvement in the water system?

Why would Irish Water (and by extension, all its other customers) pay to fix a leak on your property? Do you expect them to fix the drip on your kitchen tap? Call a plumber if you can get it fixed cheaper.

Quote from: mikehunt on October 20, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
In a situation where you have a septic tank but no metre and you are aware of a leak then it would be cheaper to ignore the leak and just pay the flat rate. I love Irish semi state "efficiency".

The septic tank part is irrelevant as sewage charges are based on the water meter reading, so if you're not metered for water, it doesn't matter what's happening your waste. And i'm no scientist, but if the pipe supplying water to your house was cracked, would there not be a risk of contamination? That'd be reason enough for me to get it repaired.

We are now paying twice for water, the least they could do is offer to shore up all leaks as a gesture of goodwill, or failing that offer to fix at a reasonable price. Isn't the point of it all to improve the infratstructure? Fixing leaks would be a start.

Two things:
1 - A leak on your property is not part of Irish Water's infrastructure. It's your property. It's no more Irish Water's obligation than a problem with your kitchen tap.
2 - It has already been announced that Irish Water will fix a first leak for free. The charges are for subsequent leaks. And unless i'm mistaken, you're free to call your own plumber, if you can get a better price.

Quote from: mikehunt on October 22, 2014, 02:57:38 PM
You're missing my point about the septic tank. with a septic tank water charges are half of that of a sytem without a septic tank. In this case the charges would be about €200. Now if you had a leak in your mains supply but no metre then to get the leak fixed would cost €188. My point (for the hard of learning) is that you're better off just ignoring the leak as the charge will be the same. This, again goes against the concept of providing an efficient water supply.

For the hard of learning indeed.  ::)

Your bill for discharging to a public sewer is based on the volume of water as read by your water meter - the volume of water supplied is assumed to be equal to the volume of wastewater removed (i.e. you use X,000 litres of water from your taps - your sewage charge is based X,000 of waste water back into the sewer, your sewage volume isn't measured independently).

So, if your water supply has no meter, then your waste supply isn't measured either. Therefore if you're not metered, it's irrelevant whether you have a septic tank or connection to the public sewer, in the context of leaks.

They should hire you as a pr rep for Irish water. My point is that Irish water should be encouraging leaks to be fixed no matter where they are. Charging 188 for the first hour and 240 if it's after 5pm tells us all we need to know about their strategy. I'm not going to explain the sewerage tank issue again except to say that it discourages people from fixing leaks.

I suppose you think the ESB should come in and change your light bulbs for you also.

Quote from: armaghniac on October 22, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
I suppose you think the ESB should come in and change your light bulbs for you also.

http://youtu.be/kpYVqZM4NnA (http://youtu.be/kpYVqZM4NnA)

Quote from: mikehunt on October 22, 2014, 07:47:21 PM
They should hire you as a pr rep for Irish water.

To explain things to people who don't understand?

Quote from: mikehunt on October 22, 2014, 07:47:21 PM
I'm not going to explain the sewerage tank issue again except to say that it discourages people from fixing leaks.

Again, the septic tank does not discourage people from fixing leaks. Unmetered water supply may do, but where your waste water goes is irrelevant.

And not a cent in promoting people to install rainwater harvesting systems for toilets, watering garden and washing cars

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2014, 09:03:38 PM
And not a cent in promoting people to install rainwater harvesting systems for toilets, watering garden and washing cars

You want us to pay you for that?

Buy it yourself.

€29.99 in Woodies and a free video to install it:  http://youtu.be/NmuEHIe6Ibo (http://youtu.be/NmuEHIe6Ibo)

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2014, 09:03:38 PM
And not a cent in promoting people to install rainwater harvesting systems for toilets, watering garden and washing cars

I agree 100% with such initiatives. It's a waste that water treated to drinking standard is used to flush toilets. But surely it's up to the general public to take some initiative. It's no different than turning down the thermostat or changing to low energy bulbs to reduce your energy use and bills.

Quote from: armaghniac on October 22, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
I suppose you think the ESB should come in and change your light bulbs for you also.

I'd ask Irish Water to do the bulbs. At €188 per hour I'd expect some painting to be done as well.

Just wait until your neighbours go to bed and connect your hose to their outside tap. Whistle while watering your plants in the morning.....

Quote from: Maguire01 on October 22, 2014, 09:11:28 PM

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on October 22, 2014, 09:03:38 PM
And not a cent in promoting people to install rainwater harvesting systems for toilets, watering garden and washing cars

I agree 100% with such initiatives. It's a waste that water treated to drinking standard is used to flush toilets. But surely it's up to the general public to take some initiative. It's no different than turning down the thermostat or changing to low energy bulbs to reduce your energy use and bills.

I was looking at one of those rainwater harvesting systems at the Ideal Homes show. The guy told me it would cost ~€4.5k to install the system. You'd be over 20 years paying water charges before you'd recoup your money, so it doesn't add up at the moment unfortunately, unless they bring in a grant for it...
Part of the expense is that the water needs to be passed through a filter before it's allowed flow into the same tank as the mains water, so he said - EPA or somebody enforcing this I presume?

I have a water Butt for the greenhouse, but I've never set it up. Anyone used any of these? What's the pressure like on it? I'm thinking of running a hose pipe out of it, and into the greenhouse so I can water the plants in there by simply turning on the tap at the Butt. Anyone done something like that before?

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 31, 2014, 02:28:11 PM
I have a water Butt for the greenhouse, but I've never set it up. Anyone used any of these? What's the pressure like on it? I'm thinking of running a hose pipe out of it, and into the greenhouse so I can water the plants in there by simply turning on the tap at the Butt. Anyone done something like that before?

If the butt is on the ground and you tap it near the bottom, then this would be lower than the plants and you might not succeed.

I have the butt raised about 2 feet. Surely i have to tap it at the bottom, otherwise the pressure will be too weak?

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 31, 2014, 02:28:11 PM
I have a water Butt for the greenhouse, but I've never set it up. Anyone used any of these? What's the pressure like on it? I'm thinking of running a hose pipe out of it, and into the greenhouse so I can water the plants in there by simply turning on the tap at the Butt. Anyone done something like that before?

Set up water butt at door of greenhouse, fill watering can from water butt, walk the 2 steps back into greenhouse, water plants you lazy f**ker  ;)

away outta that. I'm thinking of inventing a remote control that will turn on and off the tap from the kitchen window when I'm making a cup of tea.

I hope everyone gets out this weekend and shows support against these charges.

Let's stop this before it gets out of hand. We let them screw us over with the bailout and if we don't act now it will happen again.
The politicians need to be accountable for what they do and how much they plan to spend, but can't let this turn into another black hole the way it is being implemented.

No more.

So that's the end of water charges then?  ::)
So what then ? another 1% added to VAT?

Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2014, 08:55:06 PM
So that's the end of water charges then?  ::)
So what then ? another 1% added to VAT?

Then the govt would probably spend some money on the infrastructure which would be far preferable to the proposed IW shambles.

Quote from: magpie seanie on October 31, 2014, 08:58:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2014, 08:55:06 PM
So that's the end of water charges then?  ::)
So what then ? another 1% added to VAT?

Then the govt would probably spend some money on the infrastructure which would be far preferable to the proposed IW shambles.

You believe that Seanie do you?

Quote from: magpie seanie on October 31, 2014, 08:58:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2014, 08:55:06 PM
So that's the end of water charges then?  ::)
So what then ? another 1% added to VAT?

Then the govt would probably spend some money on the infrastructure which would be far preferable to the proposed IW shambles.

So one under-funded system should be favoured over another? Sure why don't we take all the education money and put it into health.

Quote from: trileacman on October 31, 2014, 11:05:47 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on October 31, 2014, 08:58:51 PMt

Quote from: Rossfan on October 31, 2014, 08:55:06 PM
So that's the end of water charges then?  ::)
So what then ? another 1% added to VAT?

Then the govt would probably spend some money on the infrastructure which would be far preferable to the proposed IW shambles.

So one under-funded system should be favoured over another? Sure why don't we take all the education money and put it into health.

Why are you swallowing the lies that water charges will primarily go towards the under funded infrastructure when it's been obvious over the last few months that it's just another trough for these greedy fcukers to feed from.

Quote from: foxcommander on October 31, 2014, 07:44:26 PM
I hope everyone gets out this weekend and shows support against these charges.

Let's stop this before it gets out of hand. We let them screw us over with the bailout and if we don't act now it will happen again.
The politicians need to be accountable for what they do and how much they plan to spend, but can't let this turn into another black hole the way it is being implemented.

No more.

This is like taking off the corner forward when you are 40 points down with a minute to go.

Too little, far, far too late.

I suppose the question should also be why should we pay road tax?  Don't we pay enough tax already.

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 31, 2014, 07:44:26 PM
I hope everyone gets out this weekend and shows support against these charges.

Let's stop this before it gets out of hand. We let them screw us over with the bailout and if we don't act now it will happen again.
The politicians need to be accountable for what they do and how much they plan to spend, but can't let this turn into another black hole the way it is being implemented.

No more.

This is like taking off the corner forward when you are 40 points down with a minute to go.

Too little, far, far too late.

Maybe it is too late this time but perhaps it's the wake up call the country needs to start questioning what their leaders are up to.
FF, FG, Labour need to be thrown in the bin.

Quote from: foxcommander on November 02, 2014, 06:11:01 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 31, 2014, 07:44:26 PM
I hope everyone gets out this weekend and shows support against these charges.

Let's stop this before it gets out of hand. We let them screw us over with the bailout and if we don't act now it will happen again.
The politicians need to be accountable for what they do and how much they plan to spend, but can't let this turn into another black hole the way it is being implemented.

No more.

This is like taking off the corner forward when you are 40 points down with a minute to go.

Too little, far, far too late.

Maybe it is too late this time but perhaps it's the wake up call the country needs to start questioning what their leaders are up to.
FF, FG, Labour need to be thrown in the bin.

Along with Sinn Féin.

Replacing Civil War politics with even earlier politics is hardly the way forward.

Might be a bit late to go back now, but this could be Enda's poll tax (http://www.forasach.ie/2014/11/01/water-charges-ireland-protests/) in that it knocks him out.

Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 02, 2014, 08:03:40 PM
Might be a bit late to go back now, but this could be Enda's poll tax (http://www.forasach.ie/2014/11/01/water-charges-ireland-protests/) in that it knocks him out.

The way spins works so successfully is incredible. People just swallow it whole, without salt or even water (!) to wash it down.

Here is the IMF deal signed in 2010 by Lenihan, but he gets some sympathy from me because of the way he was shafted. Someone called Strauss-Kahn released it.

https://www.imf.org/external/np/loi/2010/irl/120310.pdf (https://www.imf.org/external/np/loi/2010/irl/120310.pdf)

iii. Structural reforms

In advance of the introduction of water charges
- The government will have undertaken an independent assessment of transfer of responsibility for water services provision from local authorities to a water utility, and prepare proposals for implementation, as appropriate with a view to start charging in 2012/2013.

Trichet's letters will hopefully come out soon. But even if it emerges that Trichet told Lenihan he would nuke Castleknock if they didn't sign up, it would still be Kenny's fault.

Even more stupid is recent media commentary that Trichet's letter was somewhat irrelevant in terms of the pressure it applied, because Honohan had gone on the radio the day before to say we needed a bail out. Honohan worked for the ECB ffs. Has everyone in Ireland (media, the opposition, the Government) forgotten that? Or does today's political need trump any thinking or facts whatsoever?

Morgan Kelly even explained it to us and still everyone has forgotten: http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/ireland-s-future-depends-on-breaking-free-from-bailout-1.565236 (http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/ireland-s-future-depends-on-breaking-free-from-bailout-1.565236)

He put it perfectly:

Rarely has a finance minister been so deftly sliced off at the ankles by his central bank governor.

It would be a sign of progress if would could actually recognise who actually shafted us before we try to get them back.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Well said, here we are years after the horse has bolted looking for justice!

I'm all for Free Electricity, Telephone, Travel if water supplies is free. Sure the same principles carry for those services. I and my family before me have always paid for water supply. I can't see why not. It costs money to supply water to my house and why should anybody else pay for my convenience?

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 02, 2014, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Well said, here we are years after the horse has bolted looking for justice!

I'm all for Free Electricity, Telephone, Travel if water supplies is free. Sure the same principles carry for those services. I and my family before me have always paid for water supply. I can't see why not. It costs money to supply water to my house and why should anybody else pay for my convenience?

Even if the bank debt burden was removed we would still be running a deficit.  Major contributor to this is an over inflated public service on over inflated salaries. Yet you have no problem paying for another quango which is what Irish Water is?

Failing that, how's about these f**kers make companies like Apple and Google pay the tax they owe rather than chasing people who don't pay property tax. Might be more money to be found down that alley.

Quote from: mikehunt on November 02, 2014, 09:30:31 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 02, 2014, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Well said, here we are years after the horse has bolted looking for justice!

I'm all for Free Electricity, Telephone, Travel if water supplies is free. Sure the same principles carry for those services. I and my family before me have always paid for water supply. I can't see why not. It costs money to supply water to my house and why should anybody else pay for my convenience?

Even if the bank debt burden was removed we would still be running a deficit.  Major contributor to this is an over inflated public service on over inflated salaries. Yet you have no problem paying for another quango which is what Irish Water is?

Failing that, how's about these f**kers make companies like Apple and Google pay the tax they owe rather than chasing people who don't pay property tax. Might be more money to be found down that alley.

It is time to tackle all these unfunded public service pensions, particularly the ones over €100,000. They have taxed to death any private pensions, which are paid for privately, but have not introduced equivalent taxes on their own pensions, which of course are paid for by the taxpayer.

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 07:50:40 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on November 02, 2014, 06:11:01 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 31, 2014, 07:44:26 PM
I hope everyone gets out this weekend and shows support against these charges.

Let's stop this before it gets out of hand. We let them screw us over with the bailout and if we don't act now it will happen again.
The politicians need to be accountable for what they do and how much they plan to spend, but can't let this turn into another black hole the way it is being implemented.

No more.

This is like taking off the corner forward when you are 40 points down with a minute to go.

Too little, far, far too late.

Maybe it is too late this time but perhaps it's the wake up call the country needs to start questioning what their leaders are up to.
FF, FG, Labour need to be thrown in the bin.

Along with Sinn Féin.

Replacing Civil War politics with even earlier politics is hardly the way forward.

From my recollection SF aren't the political party that have led the people into the current mess or sold Ireland down the river.

Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and Labour are GUILTY of lining their own pockets and those of their pals.

If the people are beginning to see this then at least not all is in vain. For too long people have voted because of family allegiences or because the TD is from the locality etc. Hopefully they'll now see that it doesn't matter where your representative is from, only if they are making a difference for the greater good.
If not, get rid of them.

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 10:18:26 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on November 02, 2014, 09:30:31 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 02, 2014, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Well said, here we are years after the horse has bolted looking for justice!

I'm all for Free Electricity, Telephone, Travel if water supplies is free. Sure the same principles carry for those services. I and my family before me have always paid for water supply. I can't see why not. It costs money to supply water to my house and why should anybody else pay for my convenience?

Even if the bank debt burden was removed we would still be running a deficit.  Major contributor to this is an over inflated public service on over inflated salaries. Yet you have no problem paying for another quango which is what Irish Water is?

Failing that, how's about these f**kers make companies like Apple and Google pay the tax they owe rather than chasing people who don't pay property tax. Might be more money to be found down that alley.

It is time to tackle all these unfunded public service pensions, particularly the ones over €100,000. They have taxed to death any private pensions, which are paid for privately, but have not introduced equivalent taxes on their own pensions, which of course are paid for by the taxpayer.

And they have the neck to call the pension levy a pay cut.

Quote from: foxcommander on November 03, 2014, 05:20:37 AM

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 07:50:40 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on November 02, 2014, 06:11:01 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on October 31, 2014, 07:44:26 PM
I hope everyone gets out this weekend and shows support against these charges.

Let's stop this before it gets out of hand. We let them screw us over with the bailout and if we don't act now it will happen again.
The politicians need to be accountable for what they do and how much they plan to spend, but can't let this turn into another black hole the way it is being implemented.

No more.

This is like taking off the corner forward when you are 40 points down with a minute to go.

Too little, far, far too late.

Maybe it is too late this time but perhaps it's the wake up call the country needs to start questioning what their leaders are up to.
FF, FG, Labour need to be thrown in the bin.

Along with Sinn Féin.

Replacing Civil War politics with even earlier politics is hardly the way forward.

From my recollection SF aren't the political party that have led the people into the current mess or sold Ireland down the river.

Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and Labour are GUILTY of lining their own pockets and those of their pals.

If the people are beginning to see this then at least not all is in vain. For too long people have voted because of family allegiences or because the TD is from the locality etc. Hopefully they'll now see that it doesn't matter where your representative is from, only if they are making a difference for the greater good.
If not, get rid of them.

Sinn Féin voted for the Bank Guarantee.

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 02, 2014, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Well said, here we are years after the horse has bolted looking for justice!

I'm all for Free Electricity, Telephone, Travel if water supplies is free. Sure the same principles carry for those services. I and my family before me have always paid for water supply. I can't see why not. It costs money to supply water to my house and why should anybody else pay for my convenience?

Water, electricity and whatever other public services will be picked over by the corporate animals and was part of the deal for the baleout, just like any other third world country going to the IMF or ECB for a loan, Ireland was afforded no special dispensation.

I remember at the time some financial expert saying at the time about how receptive the Irish public were to the bailouts and due to high levels of 'social cohesion' they weren't expecting anywhere near the same upheaveal and demonstrations as was being experienced in Greece when the cuts came there.

Maybe the Greeks saw the bigger picture sooner than the subservient Irish who're only seeing it now, a death by a 1000 cuts too late in the day.

Quote from: johnneycool on November 03, 2014, 10:45:03 AM

Quote from: From the Bunker on November 02, 2014, 08:38:13 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2014, 08:17:17 PM
Protests need to be in Berlin where the decisions are made. Get used to it folks, get rid of water taxes they'll just cut benefits or increase income tax. We have big bills to pay and its that bail out where we were fucked over. All this anger is years too late.

Well said, here we are years after the horse has bolted looking for justice!

I'm all for Free Electricity, Telephone, Travel if water supplies is free. Sure the same principles carry for those services. I and my family before me have always paid for water supply. I can't see why not. It costs money to supply water to my house and why should anybody else pay for my convenience?

Water, electricity and whatever other public services will be picked over by the corporate animals and was part of the deal for the baleout, just like any other third world country going to the IMF or ECB for a loan, Ireland was afforded no special dispensation.

I remember at the time some financial expert saying at the time about how receptive the Irish public were to the bailouts and due to high levels of 'social cohesion' they weren't expecting anywhere near the same upheaveal and demonstrations as was being experienced in Greece when the cuts came there.

Maybe the Greeks saw the bigger picture sooner than the subservient Irish who're only seeing it now, a death by a 1000 cuts too late in the day.

We have been terribly let down by our lazy media and trough loving political and trade union classes.

In fact it is very difficult to think of anyone that spoke out against all of this consistently other than Morgan Kelly.

Quote from: muppet on October 22, 2014, 08:20:34 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on October 22, 2014, 08:18:42 PM
I suppose you think the ESB should come in and change your light bulbs for you also.

http://youtu.be/kpYVqZM4NnA (http://youtu.be/kpYVqZM4NnA)

With video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLtHl3fuaQM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLtHl3fuaQM)

With regard to the title of this thread, I had to post this:

https://www.facebook.com/theauldlfellabuckley/posts/10205904252312315 (https://www.facebook.com/theauldlfellabuckley/posts/10205904252312315)

First pic taken 1st of October reads 524 m3 , Second pic taken today 2nd November reads 544 m3 , so we are supposed to have used 20m3 in one month , Now ONE m3 is = to 1000 litres of water , so we have used 20000 litres of water in one month ?? Assuming we have an allowance of 30000 litres per year that leaves us using 210,000 liters a year @ €2.44 per 1000 litre = €512,400 owed by us to Irish Water ???? please correct me if I have got this wrong !!

Please, nobody correct him.

Tell him he should expect his bill for €512,400 just after Christmas and that if he is lucky we will have a whip around for him on New Year's.

I see Liam Neeson has been on the egg nog
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liam-neeson-will-not-return-to-ireland-because-of-water-charges-star-says-people-have-been-fed-from-a-great-height-by-bankers-and-government-30863244.html

now whether you agree with water charges or not, people still have to pay for water, the only issue is whether the people who use it should contribute or will the usual suspects have to pay for everything. Either way 50c a day should not be material in deciding where a millionaire should want to live.

Quote from: armaghniac on December 29, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
I see Liam Neeson has been on the egg nog
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liam-neeson-will-not-return-to-ireland-because-of-water-charges-star-says-people-have-been-fed-from-a-great-height-by-bankers-and-government-30863244.html

now whether you agree with water charges or not, people still have to pay for water, the only issue is whether the people who use it should contribute or will the usual suspects have to pay for everything. Either way 50c a day should not be material in deciding where a millionaire should want to live.

You fail to see the bigger picture here. Principles are something that most people don't have any more.
50c today can mean 5 Euro in 10 years time. There will be no going back once charges are in legislation.

You'll have a section of the population which won't be able to afford water payments. What then?
There's already hungry families out there.

Disgraceful and whoever backs this charge should take a good look at themselves and their principles.

Quote from: foxcommander on December 29, 2014, 08:30:02 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on December 29, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
I see Liam Neeson has been on the egg nog
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liam-neeson-will-not-return-to-ireland-because-of-water-charges-star-says-people-have-been-fed-from-a-great-height-by-bankers-and-government-30863244.html

now whether you agree with water charges or not, people still have to pay for water, the only issue is whether the people who use it should contribute or will the usual suspects have to pay for everything. Either way 50c a day should not be material in deciding where a millionaire should want to live.

You fail to see the bigger picture here. Principles are something that most people don't have any more.
50c today can mean 5 Euro in 10 years time. There will be no going back once charges are in legislation.

You'll have a section of the population which won't be able to afford water payments. What then?
There's already hungry families out there.

Disgraceful and whoever backs this charge should take a good look at themselves and their principles.

I'm totally in favour of people who get supplied with good piped water having to pay towards it. I have to as do many more like me on group schemes all over the country.
As for what might happen in the future ...... Foxcommander may be some sort of prophet but the rest of us haven't a clue what might happen in years to come ( except Kerry and Kilkenny will win All Irelands).
As for haveing a good look at ourselves.... this from someone who is spouting some Naziist bile on the the US thread. ::)

Quote from: foxcommander on December 29, 2014, 08:30:02 PM

You fail to see the bigger picture here. Principles are something that most people don't have any more.
50c today can mean 5 Euro in 10 years time. There will be no going back once charges are in legislation.

You'll have a section of the population which won't be able to afford water payments. What then?
There's already hungry families out there.

Disgraceful and who ever backs this charge should take a good look at themselves and their principles.

If the charges are too high then that implies that the costs are out of control and if people fear that then they should ensure a regulatory framework to ensure that this does not happen. The focus should be on the cost of water, the question of how that cost is allocated to taxpayers is a matter of detail. But, as usual in Ireland, people prefer to rant an rave rather than actually seek data on the issue

Quote from: RossfanI'm totally in favour of people who get supplied with good piped water having to pay towards it. I have to as do many more like me on group schemes all over the country.

Rossfan, you are a non person to Neeson and all the other "commentators".

.

Quote from: Rossfan on December 29, 2014, 10:10:13 PM
this from someone who is spouting some Naziist bile on the the US thread. ::)

You don't need to be a prophet to realise that water charges will go up as soon as possible.
Reminds me of the government giving away the rights to oil fields all over again.
If you take the financial aspect away from this deal does giving away a resource seem ethical? This is something that happens in the third world where the people don't have a vote, education nor a pot to piss in.

as a sideline - Can you qualify your statement above? Does supporting the US Police Force and calling out CNN as biased justify your analysis. Not that you'd know anything about these topics as you've probably never left your parish with the exception of the annual trip to Dublin on the tractor for the xmas shopping. And mammy has to go with you.

There are water charges in pretty much every advanced and civilised country other than Ireland. Hardly an indication of the third world!

Quote from: foxcommander on December 30, 2014, 05:09:36 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on December 29, 2014, 10:10:13 PM
this from someone who is spouting some Naziist bile on the the US thread. ::)

You don't need to be a prophet to realise that water charges will go up as soon as possible.
Reminds me of the government giving away the rights to oil fields all over again.
If you take the financial aspect away from this deal does giving away a resource seem ethical? This is something that happens in the third world where the people don't have a vote, education nor a pot to piss in.

as a sideline - Can you qualify your statement above? Does supporting the US Police Force and calling out CNN as biased justify your analysis. Not that you'd know anything about these topics as you've probably never left your parish with the exception of the annual trip to Dublin on the tractor for the xmas shopping. And mammy has to go with you.

Either water charges go up or pensions go down
It's a big decision in a town called malice.

Quote from: foxcommander on December 30, 2014, 05:09:36 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on December 29, 2014, 10:10:13 PM
this from someone who is spouting some Naziist bile on the the US thread. ::)

You don't need to be a prophet to realise that water charges will go up as soon as possible.
Reminds me of the government giving away the rights to oil fields all over again.
If you take the financial aspect away from this deal does giving away a resource seem ethical? This is something that happens in the third world where the people don't have a vote, education nor a pot to piss in.

as a sideline - Can you qualify your statement above? Does supporting the US Police Force and calling out CNN as biased justify your analysis. Not that you'd know anything about these topics as you've probably never left your parish with the exception of the annual trip to Dublin on the tractor for the xmas shopping. And mammy has to go with you.

Oh dear, what a nasty little know all you are. Travel obv hasn't broadened the mind in your case anyway. For the record I haven't got a tractor and I've been to many a strange land.

Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2014, 10:59:42 AM

Quote from: foxcommander on December 30, 2014, 05:09:36 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on December 29, 2014, 10:10:13 PM
this from someone who is spouting some Naziist bile on the the US thread. ::)

You don't need to be a prophet to realise that water charges will go up as soon as possible.
Reminds me of the government giving away the rights to oil fields all over again.
If you take the financial aspect away from this deal does giving away a resource seem ethical? This is something that happens in the third world where the people don't have a vote, education nor a pot to piss in.

as a sideline - Can you qualify your statement above? Does supporting the US Police Force and calling out CNN as biased justify your analysis. Not that you'd know anything about these topics as you've probably never left your parish with the exception of the annual trip to Dublin on the tractor for the xmas shopping. And mammy has to go with you.

Oh dear, what a nasty little know all you are. Travel obv hasn't broadened the mind in your case anyway. For the record I haven't got a tractor and I've been to many a strange land.

Don't give it if you can't take it ;)

You're still a nasty little maneen who lacks understanding and knowledge of the big people's world.
Now putting you on my ignore list :-[

Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2014, 01:54:35 PM
You're still a nasty little maneen who lacks understanding and knowledge of the big people's world.
Now putting you on my ignore list :-[

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me1pha0Pcu1rnr47go5_250.gif)

Quote from: foxcommander on December 30, 2014, 05:09:36 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on December 29, 2014, 10:10:13 PM
this from someone who is spouting some Naziist bile on the the US thread. ::)

You don't need to be a prophet to realise that water charges will go up as soon as possible.
Reminds me of the government giving away the rights to oil fields all over again.
If you take the financial aspect away from this deal does giving away a resource seem ethical? This is something that happens in the third world where the people don't have a vote, education nor a pot to piss in.

What does this have to do with giving away a resource?

if people don't like the concept of water charges they should suggest an alternative form of taxation.

Tax parents for ginger children.

Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2014, 03:50:22 PM
if people don't like the concept of water charges they should suggest an alternative form of taxation.

And then ask the troika if it is ok to implement it.

Quote from: armaghniac on December 29, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
I see Liam Neeson has been on the egg nog
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liam-neeson-will-not-return-to-ireland-because-of-water-charges-star-says-people-have-been-fed-from-a-great-height-by-bankers-and-government-30863244.html

now whether you agree with water charges or not, people still have to pay for water, the only issue is whether the people who use it should contribute or will the usual suspects have to pay for everything. Either way 50c a day should not be material in deciding where a millionaire should want to live.

Actor with impending film release gives journalists a soundbite. Shocker.

And given that he lives in a country where there's direct payment for water...

Just got an email from Irish Water telling me my next bill is due.

Now I am not a protestor as there are far greater reasons to my mind the 100,000 could be marching on the Dáil, e.g. the Heath Service, Banks etc. But they are for other threads.

My problem is this.

It has a link in the email telling me to click 'Here' to go to my account. There it has a login page with my email address pre-filled. Thus all it is looking for is the password. I assumed, because it was so amateurish, that it must be a phishing scam, so I closed the browser, re-opened it and navigated myself to Irish Water's website. But it appears that it wasn't a scam.

It looked for all the world exactly like the AIB and Bank of Ireland scams that have been doing the rounds for months, where they get you to click open a page that looks like what you expect, and then you enter your logon details, only for the scammer to record them while you can't scratch your head unable to access your account. A day of two later your money is gone.

How long before scammers send similar emails getting people to logon and actually make payments to scammers, because the people at  Irish Water haven't the wit to know what sort of scams are doing the rounds?

Any tech heads able to enlighten me as to whether or not my fears are well founded, or am I missing something?

Quote from: muppet on July 23, 2015, 10:10:21 PM
Just got an email from Irish Water telling me my next bill is due.

Now I am not a protestor as there are far greater reasons to my mind the 100,000 could be marching on the Dáil, e.g. the Heath Service, Banks etc. But they are for other threads.

My problem is this.

It has a link in the email telling me to click 'Here' to go to my account. There it has a login page with my email address pre-filled. Thus all it is looking for is the password. I assumed, because it was so amateurish, that it must be a phishing scam, so I closed the browser, re-opened it and navigated myself to Irish Water's website. But it appears that it wasn't a scam.

It looked for all the world exactly like the AIB and Bank of Ireland scams that have been doing the rounds for months, where they get you to click open a page that looks like what you expect, and then you enter your logon details, only for the scammer to record them while you can't scratch your head unable to access your account. A day of two later your money is gone.

How long before scammers send similar emails getting people to logon and actually make payments to scammers, because the people at  Irish Water haven't the wit to know what sort of scams are doing the rounds?

Any tech heads able to enlighten me as to whether or not my fears are well founded, or am I missing something?

Not sure why you're surprised. This is a quango. Water infrastructure and security of customer details are way down the list of priorities. There are bonuses to be paid out of the €23.65 revenue received so far.

Phishing tends to be more geared towards sites where you can get access to people's money.

It just sounds shoddy as opposed to suspect though for click here to login on an email I would be careful as that tends to be what phishing emails are like. If you store your payment details, e.g. credit card or bank details, then I would be wary of a click here as it could be targetted but it's no more susceptible than most other sites I usspect.

Basically always check the URL and you should be fine.

Quote from: imtommygunn on July 24, 2015, 01:24:02 PM
Phishing tends to be more geared towards sites where you can get access to people's money.

It just sounds shoddy as opposed to suspect though for click here to login on an email I would be careful as that tends to be what phishing emails are like. If you store your payment details, e.g. credit card or bank details, then I would be wary of a click here as it could be targetted but it's no more susceptible than most other sites I usspect.

Basically always check the URL and you should be fine.

As soon as you access the site it shows you a bill and asks for a payment and offers credit card payments. It is a phisherman's dream.

Quote from: mikehunt on July 24, 2015, 12:24:22 PM€23.65 revenue received so far.

Well, it's a start.

Is this fish dead in the Water?

http://www.thejournal.ie/fine-gael-willing-to-talk-about-getting-rid-of-water-charges-2636623-Mar2016/

http://www.thejournal.ie/lord-mayor-fine-gael-water-charges-2637609-Mar2016/

Quote from: armaghniac on December 29, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
I see Liam Neeson has been on the egg nog
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liam-neeson-will-not-return-to-ireland-because-of-water-charges-star-says-people-have-been-fed-from-a-great-height-by-bankers-and-government-30863244.html

now whether you agree with water charges or not, people still have to pay for water, the only issue is whether the people who use it should contribute or will the usual suspects have to pay for everything. Either way 50c a day should not be material in deciding where a millionaire should want to live.

Another luvvie spouting populist 5hite .  He continues to live in US where water is bloody dear and was home of the sub prime mortgage . 

Quote from: ashman on March 03, 2016, 01:41:49 AM

Quote from: armaghniac on December 29, 2014, 07:59:48 PM
I see Liam Neeson has been on the egg nog
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/liam-neeson-will-not-return-to-ireland-because-of-water-charges-star-says-people-have-been-fed-from-a-great-height-by-bankers-and-government-30863244.html

now whether you agree with water charges or not, people still have to pay for water, the only issue is whether the people who use it should contribute or will the usual suspects have to pay for everything. Either way 50c a day should not be material in deciding where a millionaire should want to live.

Another luvvie spouting populist 5hite .  He continues to live in US where water is bloody dear and was home of the sub prime mortgage .

Fair play to Liam, bright bloke like him knows what's going on. Just cos he's successful u get the usual begrudgery and knocking of opinions cos "he don't know what it's like to live on my meagre wage".

Not sure where to throw this link, here looked the best bet!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html)

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 11:00:00 AM
Not sure where to throw this link, here looked the best bet!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html)

Wow. Paul Murphy has a salary of €87k plus expenses. But because he funnels his money through the AAA, he can claim to have disposable income of less than €18k, so that we (or those of us who pay tax) can pay his legal bills for him.

It's no wonder he gets so many votes from the "Let someone else pay for it" brigade!

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 11:21:42 AM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 11:00:00 AM
Not sure where to throw this link, here looked the best bet!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html)

Wow. Paul Murphy has a salary of €87k plus expenses. But because he funnels his money through the AAA, he can claim to have disposable income of less than €18k, so that we (or those of us who pay tax) can pay his legal bills for him.

It's no wonder he gets so many votes from the "Let someone else pay for it" brigade!

I thought they all voted SF.

Where's the public outrage about this private school educated hypocritical sponging cnut?
If a FFr/FGr tried that they'd be forced out of the Dàil while if it was a SFr the Indorag would be in full cry.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 03, 2016, 11:23:58 AM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 11:21:42 AM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 11:00:00 AM
Not sure where to throw this link, here looked the best bet!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/murphy-takes-the-mickey-out-of-the-irish-people-34674660.html)

Wow. Paul Murphy has a salary of €87k plus expenses. But because he funnels his money through the AAA, he can claim to have disposable income of less than €18k, so that we (or those of us who pay tax) can pay his legal bills for him.

It's no wonder he gets so many votes from the "Let someone else pay for it" brigade!

I thought they all voted SF.

That's the issue - SF and the Anti-paying-for-Anything-Alliance are vying for the votes of this demographic.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2016, 11:28:56 AM
Where's the public outrage about this private school educated hypocritical sponging cnut?
If a FFr/FGr tried that they'd be forced out of the Dàil while if it was a SFr the Indorag would be in full cry.

The article is from the Indo. They are pro Irish Water. They are anti-left. Where do you stand? You are anti wealthy (LEFT), anti Indo (LEFT) anti Sinn Fein (RIGHT), anti Indo when attacking Sinn Fein (LEFT), anti-won't pay for anything brigade (RIGHT). Anti Unions (RIGHT), Union member (LEFT). Do we tot them up and see who wins? A pair of beach sandals wouldn't flip flop as much as u.

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 12:01:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2016, 11:28:56 AM
Where's the public outrage about this private school educated hypocritical sponging cnut?
If a FFr/FGr tried that they'd be forced out of the Dàil while if it was a SFr the Indorag would be in full cry.

The article is from the Indo. They are pro Irish Water. They are anti-left. Where do you stand? You are anti wealthy (LEFT), anti Indo (LEFT) anti Sinn Fein (RIGHT), anti Indo when attacking Sinn Fein (LEFT), anti-won't pay for anything brigade (RIGHT). Anti Unions (RIGHT), Union member (LEFT). Do we tot them up and see who wins? A pair of beach sandals wouldn't flip flop as much as u.

The Irish left are a bunch of careerist opportunists who think everything should be free except for "the rich". 
I would be quite amenable to a sustainable social democracy but I can't see this . 

Also FF are shameless opportunists and FG are weak and lily livered . 

Quote from: ashman on May 03, 2016, 12:11:11 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 12:01:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2016, 11:28:56 AM
Where's the public outrage about this private school educated hypocritical sponging cnut?
If a FFr/FGr tried that they'd be forced out of the Dàil while if it was a SFr the Indorag would be in full cry.

The article is from the Indo. They are pro Irish Water. They are anti-left. Where do you stand? You are anti wealthy (LEFT), anti Indo (LEFT) anti Sinn Fein (RIGHT), anti Indo when attacking Sinn Fein (LEFT), anti-won't pay for anything brigade (RIGHT). Anti Unions (RIGHT), Union member (LEFT). Do we tot them up and see who wins? A pair of beach sandals wouldn't flip flop as much as u.

The Irish left are a bunch of careerist opportunists who think everything should be free except for "the rich". 
I would be quite amenable to a sustainable social democracy but I can't see this . 

Also FF are shameless opportunists and FG are weak and lily livered .

I heard Alan Dukes and another "retired" politician lament the rise of Independents and AAA/PBP on the radio. Didn't register with them that their popularity is a direct result of the actions of their own party. The arrogance of FG is their undoing.

As an aside I wonder will the people who labelled non-payers as spongers accept the refund? Hypocrites if they do. There were a few on this board who had no problem paying.

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 12:56:12 PM

Quote from: ashman on May 03, 2016, 12:11:11 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 12:01:13 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2016, 11:28:56 AM
Where's the public outrage about this private school educated hypocritical sponging cnut?
If a FFr/FGr tried that they'd be forced out of the Dàil while if it was a SFr the Indorag would be in full cry.

The article is from the Indo. They are pro Irish Water. They are anti-left. Where do you stand? You are anti wealthy (LEFT), anti Indo (LEFT) anti Sinn Fein (RIGHT), anti Indo when attacking Sinn Fein (LEFT), anti-won't pay for anything brigade (RIGHT). Anti Unions (RIGHT), Union member (LEFT). Do we tot them up and see who wins? A pair of beach sandals wouldn't flip flop as much as u.

The Irish left are a bunch of careerist opportunists who think everything should be free except for "the rich". 
I would be quite amenable to a sustainable social democracy but I can't see this . 

Also FF are shameless opportunists and FG are weak and lily livered .

I heard Alan Dukes and another "retired" politician lament the rise of Independents and AAA/PBP on the radio. Didn't register with them that their popularity is a direct result of the actions of their own party. The arrogance of FG is their undoing.

As an aside I wonder will the people who labelled non-payers as spongers accept the refund? Hypocrites if they do. There were a few on this board who had no problem paying.

They'll have no problem taking a refund either.

MikeHunt

I take your point re Dukes but the AAA / PBP / Indo/ SF gains were in the main due to the Labour Party's promises in 2011 election .

Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

On a water scheme.. Have always paid for water. My Parents have always paid for water. If I pay for water and you don't then I pay twice? Yes?

There were local water boards paid by the Government who ran the pumping stations and treatment plants.  So the tax payers paid.

Quote from: Denn Forever on May 03, 2016, 01:40:19 PM
There were local water boards paid by the Government who ran the pumping stations and treatment plants.  So the tax payers paid.

So people on Schemes paid twice?

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Arra will you whisht. Sure doesn't it come from the sky. And why should we bother our arses treating sewage. Spew it into the lakes and rivers like we've always done. All it will do is kill a few fish and eels. Slimy bastards. What have those hoors ever done for us? And if the Jackeens are running out a water, let's borrow some money from Europe and divert the Shannon their way so the poor people of Athlone aren't getting flooded out of it all the time and poor Joan Burton doesn't have to be trawling though the Venice of the West by boat. And sure what if it's undrinkable. Boil it a few times and it's a grand cup of tea. And all the fluride will keep the auld yalla shine off the teeth. Pay for water, did you ever hear the like. Pay for Sky, for for The Sun, pay Rubert Murdorch, pay Murphy's legal fees, pay half your wages to Sinn Fein - but never, ever pay for water.

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: Denn Forever on May 03, 2016, 01:40:19 PM
There were local water boards paid by the Government who ran the pumping stations and treatment plants.  So the tax payers paid.

So people on Schemes paid twice?

Yes you pay twice. You are being done. Rossfan wants everyone to pay twice to make it more equitable.

And we taxpayers in rural areas pay the sane tax rates and have to pay for our water too.
How about tax refunds for us?
The Irish so called left get totally wound up because the cosseted people with nice snug homes were asked to pay €3 nett per week for public water and sewerage.
SF got afraid of their sh1te those cnuts would take their seats so water charges became their only real issue.
Then FF who agreed with the Troika to bring in water charges got afraid of SF and jumped on the anti bandwagon.
FG in the interests of making Kenny the first FG Taoiseach to be returned to Office agreed a shameful climb down with FF.

The money foregone in water/sewerage charges would build about 1,000 social houses per annum.
But sure we can't be doing that - much better to give legal aid to a hypocrite like Murphy.

Only " working class people" he ever met were the family servants.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2016, 01:52:17 PM
And we taxpayers in rural areas pay the sane tax rates and have to pay for our water too.
How about tax refunds for us?
The Irish so called left get totally wound up because the cosseted people with nice snug homes were asked to pay €3 nett per week for public water and sewerage.
SF got afraid of their sh1te those cnuts would take their seats so water charges became their only real issue.
Then FF who agreed with the Troika to bring in water charges got afraid of SF and jumped on the anti bandwagon.
FG in the interests of making Kenny the first FG Taoiseach to be returned to Office agreed a shameful climb down with FF.

The money foregone in water/sewerage charges would build about 1,000 social houses per annum.
But sure we can't be doing that - much better to give legal aid to a hypocrite like Murphy.

Only " working class people" he ever met were the family servants.

Surprised u don't like Enda, he flip flops as much as yourself. Console yourself with your over-inflated public sector salary, consider the money u contribute to public water system as a type of levy. You lambast anti-water charge folk as spongers. u scream for a rebate out of the other side of your mouth. Do u have tourettes?

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Do you think water prices will be set to stay at 3 euro per week forever?

It's pretty simple, the utility is being heavily pushed by the government promising low cost to households.

As soon as it is accepted and implemented it will be open to price changes at the whim of the authorities and/or sold off to a third party to make massive profits - the last bits of the family silver to pawn off to feed the TD pension funds.
Families will be faced with yet another decision on which utility it can afford to pay - will they go without heating/electric/water/food/housing in a particular month. Grim eh?

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 03:00:36 PM
Do you think water prices will be set to stay at 3 euro per week forever?

It's pretty simple, the utility is being heavily pushed by the government promising low cost to households.

As soon as it is accepted and implemented it will be open to price changes at the whim of the authorities and/or sold off to a third party to make massive profits - the last bits of the family silver to pawn off to feed the TD pension funds.
Families will be faced with yet another decision on which utility it can afford to pay - will they go without heating/electric/water/food/housing in a particular month. Grim eh?

So the money for the water charges will be going to the politicians?
That's grim alright, glad you're here to keep us in the picture.

I propose an XBox/Playstation tax to replace the Water Charges 

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 03:21:53 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 03:00:36 PM
Do you think water prices will be set to stay at 3 euro per week forever?

It's pretty simple, the utility is being heavily pushed by the government promising low cost to households.

As soon as it is accepted and implemented it will be open to price changes at the whim of the authorities and/or sold off to a third party to make massive profits - the last bits of the family silver to pawn off to feed the TD pension funds.
Families will be faced with yet another decision on which utility it can afford to pay - will they go without heating/electric/water/food/housing in a particular month. Grim eh?

So the money for the water charges will be going to the politicians?

Of course not.

The money raised for water charges will be strictly used for improving the infrastructure all over the country building a world class utility with state of the art treatment plants at the most economical cost to households.
Compensation for workers will be fair but competitive with modest bonus schemes for executives.
All profits will be passed back to households in the form of lower water rate charges.

No kickbacks or favouritism will be given to any political party/individuals and fears of cronyism will be unfounded.


There you go. Better?

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Water charges is a major stumbling block because a campaign against them gathered speed and caught the media's attention. A bill received in the post is always harder to take than an increase in VAT that may actually cost a citizen more.

If water is charged based on usage after a free allowable amount then I'm fine with it.

If a person of 60 has lived in their house all their life and, over time, the value of their house increases for reasons outside of their control, then they have to pay a higher amount in property tax. Water usage is within people's control (to an extent), property prices aren't. Why wasn't there a big campaign against property prices? Because working class citizens are less likely to be affected and so the parties/individuals that those citizens might vote for have nothing to gain by campaigning for it.

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 03:52:49 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Other taxes!

More money is needed to improve the water infrastructure. Has to be done. Has to be paid for.

It's a new tax. It's a pain in the hole. Nobody likes paying or enjoys paying tax. But most realise its necessary to be able to provide services.

How do you think the taxes should be raised? Let someone else pay for it?

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 04:07:19 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 03:52:49 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Other taxes!

More money is needed to improve the water infrastructure. Has to be done. Has to be paid for.

It's a new tax. It's a pain in the hole. Nobody likes paying or enjoys paying tax. But most realise its necessary to be able to provide services.

How do you think the taxes should be raised? Let someone else pay for it?

Infrastructure is way down the list of priorities. Irish Water is another HSE style quango. If you're foolish enough to want to fund the likes of John Tierney's bonus and Dennis O Brien's offshore bank account then good luck to you. Plenty of rational people see it for the heist it is. Consultants, bonuses, gym, charging systems, meter installation contracts were all put ahead of infrastructure improvements. None so blind etc.

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 03:52:49 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Loans from the IMF , before that loans from the markets & before that from unsustainable taxes from a credit fuelled "boom ". 

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 05:04:55 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 04:07:19 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 03:52:49 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Other taxes!

More money is needed to improve the water infrastructure. Has to be done. Has to be paid for.

It's a new tax. It's a pain in the hole. Nobody likes paying or enjoys paying tax. But most realise its necessary to be able to provide services.

How do you think the taxes should be raised? Let someone else pay for it?

Infrastructure is way down the list of priorities. Irish Water is another HSE style quango. If you're foolish enough to want to fund the likes of John Tierney's bonus and Dennis O Brien's offshore bank account then good luck to you. Plenty of rational people see it for the heist it is. Consultants, bonuses, gym, charging systems, meter installation contracts were all put ahead of infrastructure improvements. None so blind etc.

Right. So the water charges are going to John Tierney and Denis O'Brien.
That's even worse than going to the politicians!
How did they expect to get away with it! Thank god for PBP/AAA for highlighting this ruse. It's no wonder they're entitled to get their legal fees paid by us taxpayers given the service their providing

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 05:09:57 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 05:04:55 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 04:07:19 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 03:52:49 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Other taxes!

More money is needed to improve the water infrastructure. Has to be done. Has to be paid for.

It's a new tax. It's a pain in the hole. Nobody likes paying or enjoys paying tax. But most realise its necessary to be able to provide services.

How do you think the taxes should be raised? Let someone else pay for it?

Infrastructure is way down the list of priorities. Irish Water is another HSE style quango. If you're foolish enough to want to fund the likes of John Tierney's bonus and Dennis O Brien's offshore bank account then good luck to you. Plenty of rational people see it for the heist it is. Consultants, bonuses, gym, charging systems, meter installation contracts were all put ahead of infrastructure improvements. None so blind etc.

Right. So the water charges are going to John Tierney and Denis O'Brien.
That's even worse than going to the politicians!
How did they expect to get away with it! Thank god for PBP/AAA for highlighting this ruse. It's no wonder they're entitled to get their legal fees paid by us taxpayers given the service their providing

Indeed, the likes of Catherine Murphy, Mick Wallace, Claire Daly have done great work in uncovering shady dealings by this govt. You keep funding that quango like a good lad. Loads of fat cats are relying on you.

Anyway how much of a hit are the public finances about to take so we can get a Government from among the clowns?
"Suspend" water charges -€250m
Refund the law abiding citizens most of whom would have votes FF or FG -€250m
Reduce USC -€500m
Cost of getting 2 lots of Indies on board -€1.5Bn.
Total 2.5Bn.

Meanwhile we need 20,000 social houses, 10,000 Gardai/Nurses/other public service workers, major investment in Hospitals not to mention water/sewerage.

Ah sure someone will pay for it all.......
Now where did all those tooth fairies go? Or maybe we should start catching them Leprauchàneens at the end if the rainbows.

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 05:04:55 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 04:07:19 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 03:52:49 PM

Quote from: Hound on May 03, 2016, 02:07:02 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 01:32:44 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on May 03, 2016, 01:16:40 PM
Why should water be free? Why? I don't understand this?

Who paid for it prior to Irish Water being set-up? If you know who and where they are, can you ask them to come back?

Mike, do you believe this type of stuff, or just type it for a laugh?

Its a form of tax. Country needs money and collects it through various taxes and charges.

Its actually ridiculous how there has been absolutely no debate about how to raise this money if Water Charges are abolished.
If people thought Motor Tax would increase, or Dole would decrease, or USC would increase if there was no water charges, then we might have a reasoned debate - instead you'd think its a choice between paying for water or paying nothing! Not to mention the "we already pay for our water through other tax" childish nonsense

Prior to Irish Water, how was the public water system funded?

Other taxes!

More money is needed to improve the water infrastructure. Has to be done. Has to be paid for.

It's a new tax. It's a pain in the hole. Nobody likes paying or enjoys paying tax. But most realise its necessary to be able to provide services.

How do you think the taxes should be raised? Let someone else pay for it?

Infrastructure is way down the list of priorities. Irish Water is another HSE style quango. If you're foolish enough to want to fund the likes of John Tierney's bonus and Dennis O Brien's offshore bank account then good luck to you. Plenty of rational people see it for the heist it is. Consultants, bonuses, gym, charging systems, meter installation contracts were all put ahead of infrastructure improvements. None so blind etc.

Wasting your time Mike - there's quite a few on here that haven't learned their lesson from the last number of years.
Quite sad/worrying that they can't see past the ruse that is Irish Water.

Let's see Dinny start up Irish Air and the likes of Ross and Hound will demand everyone will pay for it.
Or a Carbon Credit tax.

Worth a go!

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Let's see Dinny start up Irish Air and the likes of Ross and Hound will demand everyone will pay for it.

Are there any examples of places that charge for air, or are you just talking bollix?

Quote from: armaghniac on May 03, 2016, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Let's see Dinny start up Irish Air and the likes of Ross and Hound will demand everyone will pay for it.

Are there any examples of places that charge for air, or are you just talking bollix?

Nail on head in second part of your question alright.
The huntfox comedy show goes on...

Mike

The work the 3 you mentioned is all fine and even dandy and I notice the boogeyman  Fat cats are identified but the bottom line is there is a massive amount of work to be done on infrastructure and not forgetting day to day delivery of services.

These issues have to addressed. The abolition of water charges will prove a very hollow "victory".

Quote from: ashman on May 03, 2016, 06:57:39 PM
Mike

The work the 3 you mentioned is all fine and even dandy and I notice the boogeyman  Fat cats are identified but the bottom line is there is a massive amount of work to be done on infrastructure and not forgetting day to day delivery of services.

These issues have to addressed. The abolition of water charges will prove a very hollow "victory".

This is where we disagree. I think it was a great victory for the people.  The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take. There are plenty of areas they could get the resources required.  They tried the easy option once too often.

Quote from: armaghniac on May 03, 2016, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Let's see Dinny start up Irish Air and the likes of Ross and Hound will demand everyone will pay for it.

Are there any examples of places that charge for air, or are you just talking bollix?

You going to accept the refund if it comes Armaghniac?

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 08:31:05 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on May 03, 2016, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Let's see Dinny start up Irish Air and the likes of Ross and Hound will demand everyone will pay for it.

Are there any examples of places that charge for air, or are you just talking bollix?

You going to accept the refund if it comes Armaghniac?

Yes, if they are not going to pursue the spongers.

Awww poor Dinny isn't happy about suspension of water charges - I wonder why he's so concerned?

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/0503/785793-denis-obriens-digicel/

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 09:11:24 PM
Awww poor Dinny isn't happy about suspension of water charges - I wonder why he's so concerned?

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/0503/785793-denis-obriens-digicel/

If there was ever any doubt then this outburst confirms why IW and the whole model set up by FG/Lab needs to be smashed.

And another thing - how dare this Maltese citizen talk about our country. Nothing to do with him.

Also cannot understand how any media outlet would interview or even quote him given the proven facts against him in the past.

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

Hate to bang on about it but who's going to stop the price of water going through the roof once the system of charging gets implemented and accepted by the people.

Has there been a revision of the nice or lisbon treaty and a revote after the government got the mandate they wanted? I don't think so...

Theres no turning back once the charges go in, even if it was for 1 euro a month. That's the biggest issue imo.

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 11:00:58 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

Hate to bang on about it but who's going to stop the price of water going through the roof once the system of charging gets implemented and accepted by the people.

Has there been a revision of the nice or lisbon treaty and a revote after the government got the mandate they wanted? I don't think so...

Theres no turning back once the charges go in, even if it was for 1 euro a month. That's the biggest issue imo.

Proper legislation should be brought in allowing a reasonable threshold of free water for every citizen and then a modest charge once
they start to overuse it. Any price changes can only be in line with CPI rises.

At the moment I can turn on every tap in my house, leave them run for a week, but it's fine because apparently I paid for it through general taxation.  ;D

Micky Martin tonight says ye should all pay ye're public water bills even though his Party  have in effect put an end to them and were the party that agreed with the Troika to bring in public water charges inthe first place.
You couldn't make it up....... And 24% of voters voted for them.

I really do wish Mr Chopra would come back and take charge from the fcukn muppetry that we elect. :-\

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

In general would these people not be hygienically challenged so they'd hardly be running multiple baths or washing their hands OCD style?

Your point about being allowed to run your tap 24/7 is valid though. I have been to many houses over the years and every single one had all their taps running all the time. I asked why they do this, they all replied "because it's free thanks to the Water Fairy and it's great craic".

Quote from: armaghniac on May 03, 2016, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Let's see Dinny start up Irish Air and the likes of Ross and Hound will demand everyone will pay for it.

Are there any examples of places that charge for air, or are you just talking bollix?

I hope you're not that thick. Very worrying if so.

I'm suggesting some would pay any tax they are told to by the government without question, no matter how ridiculous it is.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 11:08:52 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 11:00:58 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

Hate to bang on about it but who's going to stop the price of water going through the roof once the system of charging gets implemented and accepted by the people.

Has there been a revision of the nice or lisbon treaty and a revote after the government got the mandate they wanted? I don't think so...

Theres no turning back once the charges go in, even if it was for 1 euro a month. That's the biggest issue imo.

Proper legislation should be brought in allowing a reasonable threshold of free water for every citizen and then a modest charge once
they start to overuse it. Any price changes can only be in line with CPI rises.

At the moment I can turn on every tap in my house, leave them run for a week, but it's fine because apparently I paid for it through general taxation.  ;D

....... and that's the problem. In our area we are in a newly developed private scheme that was part funded by the members and have been metered now for the past 6 years. It all works fairly; each household gets a free allocation with charges kicking in if you use extra. I invested in a rain water harvester which means I only pay the standing charge of €30 p.a. I think this system of payment should be rolled out as soon as possible because it promotes conservation and ensures that the utility is funded in a fair manner.
Problem now of course is that the majority of the public see charging for water as a tax thanks to government ineptitude and the scandalous way Phil Hogan was allowed to bulldoze Irish Water into place. The reality is that unless we fund a utility properly and fairly through metering, production of a quality public water supply and waste treatment  nationally will end up costing everyone of us a lot more. A good drought would focus people's mind's here.

Quote from: Mayoffs on May 05, 2016, 11:06:21 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 11:08:52 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 11:00:58 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

Hate to bang on about it but who's going to stop the price of water going through the roof once the system of charging gets implemented and accepted by the people.

Has there been a revision of the nice or lisbon treaty and a revote after the government got the mandate they wanted? I don't think so...

Theres no turning back once the charges go in, even if it was for 1 euro a month. That's the biggest issue imo.

Proper legislation should be brought in allowing a reasonable threshold of free water for every citizen and then a modest charge once
they start to overuse it. Any price changes can only be in line with CPI rises.

At the moment I can turn on every tap in my house, leave them run for a week, but it's fine because apparently I paid for it through general taxation.  ;D

....... and that's the problem. In our area we are in a newly developed private scheme that was part funded by the members and have been metered now for the past 6 years. It all works fairly; each household gets a free allocation with charges kicking in if you use extra. I invested in a rain water harvester which means I only pay the standing charge of €30 p.a. I think this system of payment should be rolled out as soon as possible because it promotes conservation and ensures that the utility is funded in a fair manner.
Problem now of course is that the majority of the public see charging for water as a tax thanks to government ineptitude and the scandalous way Phil Hogan was allowed to bulldoze Irish Water into place. The reality is that unless we fund a utility properly and fairly through metering, production of a quality public water supply and waste treatment  nationally will end up costing everyone of us a lot more. A good drought would focus people's mind's here.

Excellent post.

Quote from: ashman on May 06, 2016, 12:18:40 AM

Quote from: Mayoffs on May 05, 2016, 11:06:21 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 11:08:52 PM

Quote from: foxcommander on May 03, 2016, 11:00:58 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 03, 2016, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: mikehunt on May 03, 2016, 07:53:12 PM
The Water Tax was the final straw for people. Politicians have rode this country for years. They now know there's only so much austerity people are willing take.

Not fully true. Charges like property tax and USC affect workers more than other citizens and are somewhat progressive in their application.
Water charges on the other hand are the charges much more likely to affect the folks who keep their hands stuffed down the front of their tracksuits.

Hate to bang on about it but who's going to stop the price of water going through the roof once the system of charging gets implemented and accepted by the people.

Has there been a revision of the nice or lisbon treaty and a revote after the government got the mandate they wanted? I don't think so...

Theres no turning back once the charges go in, even if it was for 1 euro a month. That's the biggest issue imo.

Proper legislation should be brought in allowing a reasonable threshold of free water for every citizen and then a modest charge once
they start to overuse it. Any price changes can only be in line with CPI rises.

At the moment I can turn on every tap in my house, leave them run for a week, but it's fine because apparently I paid for it through general taxation.  ;D

....... and that's the problem. In our area we are in a newly developed private scheme that was part funded by the members and have been metered now for the past 6 years. It all works fairly; each household gets a free allocation with charges kicking in if you use extra. I invested in a rain water harvester which means I only pay the standing charge of €30 p.a. I think this system of payment should be rolled out as soon as possible because it promotes conservation and ensures that the utility is funded in a fair manner.
Problem now of course is that the majority of the public see charging for water as a tax thanks to government ineptitude and the scandalous way Phil Hogan was allowed to bulldoze Irish Water into place. The reality is that unless we fund a utility properly and fairly through metering, production of a quality public water supply and waste treatment  nationally will end up costing everyone of us a lot more. A good drought would focus people's mind's here.

Excellent post.

Very good post. Except the bit about seeing water as a tax. Water charges (i.e. a tax) were agreed with the Troika as part of the bailout. Despite the ineptitude, and I agree they were inept, it was always going to be seen as a tax. I just wish they had shown some backbone and stuck with the metering idea.

I presume they'll get into bother with the EU/ECB when the proposed budget is sent in for approval if it doesn't include an income from public water charges??

Can anyone tell me what criteria are used by Bord Uisce to determine the amount to be charged to households that have signed up?
The water used is not being metered at present so what considerations are taken into account?
Two of my neighbours are elderly men and each lives on his own. 
One got a bill for €4.64 and the other in very similar circumstances got a bill for €19.94. I have heard of another, younger person who lives alone and got billed for € 35 plus.
I know there should be a logical explanation for those wildly varying amounts but I ca n't figure out what it is.
Anyone?

Was it a standard Max amount of €160 or 260 but if your metered use was less you got billed for that amount??

Quote from: Rossfan on May 06, 2016, 12:18:25 PM
Was it a standard Max amount of €160 or 260 but if your metered use was less you got billed for that amount??

But it's not being metered Ross and that's what puzzles me.

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 06, 2016, 11:21:38 AM
Can anyone tell me what criteria are used by Bord Uisce to determine the amount to be charged to households that have signed up?
The water used is not being metered at present so what considerations are taken into account?
Two of my neighbours are elderly men and each lives on his own. 
One got a bill for €4.64 and the other in very similar circumstances got a bill for €19.94. I have heard of another, younger person who lives alone and got billed for € 35 plus.
I know there should be a logical explanation for those wildly varying amounts but I ca n't figure out what it is.
Anyone?

Are you sure it is not being metered? Quite a few meters have been installed at this stage.

Quote from: armaghniac on May 06, 2016, 03:54:45 PM

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 06, 2016, 11:21:38 AM
Can anyone tell me what criteria are used by Bord Uisce to determine the amount to be charged to households that have signed up?
The water used is not being metered at present so what considerations are taken into account?
Two of my neighbours are elderly men and each lives on his own. 
One got a bill for €4.64 and the other in very similar circumstances got a bill for €19.94. I have heard of another, younger person who lives alone and got billed for € 35 plus.
I know there should be a logical explanation for those wildly varying amounts but I ca n't figure out what it is.
Anyone?

Are you sure it is not being metered? Quite a few meters have been installed at this stage.

That's what we were told by a govt. spokesman (can't recall which minster) when the original charges were set aside.  Besides, there are areas, in North Dublin at any rate, where the meters have been removed by  an anti-water charge element. I've seen a photo of 70/80 units that were ripped out, before they were destroyed. I was also assured that there were other areas where the the same thing has been done. This is an organised gang who will move in if the householder is willing and they can rip it out in a matter of minutes. Surely if that amount of units are not functioning, the water board would have taken action by now.

The FF-PD-Green Government, the one that signed us up to the Troika deal and committed us to water charges, originally wanted to charge households €500 for water.

Now FF wants credit for suspending the €260 water charge, while leaving everything completely up in the air.

Ya couldn't make it up Mup. ::)
Anyway we have your man back as Taoiseach again.
How long can it last?

Quote from: Rossfan on May 06, 2016, 06:23:19 PM
Ya couldn't make it up Mup. ::)
Anyway we have your man back as Taoiseach again.
How long can it last?

Not long I'd say.

Shane Ross has Transport.  ;D

Imagine him meeting what he has called The Beards' for decades to discuss the Luas strike?

So, have been living away for a few years but had noticed chat about refunds being issued for Irish Water bills that were paid.

The charges weren't in that long before I left, so my water grant payment ended up covering the total charges that I paid. I'm now led to understand that all paid charges will be refunded and they're not seeking to recoup the grant. Is this correct?

What a complete farce at the end of it all. What was does this leave Irish Water due the future?

Meanwhile me and maybe half a million other households have to pay for our water and also pay the same rates of tax as the "Free" water crowd.
What about our rights to "Free" water Ogle, Boyd Barrett, Murphy, Coppinger and all the other hoors?
Biggest farce of all was giving €100 to fckrs who didn't pay anything.

Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

I haven't read the thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before, but would you suggest a similar protest against the LPT?

Quote from: Esmarelda on November 15, 2017, 04:17:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

I haven't read the thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before, but would you suggest a similar protest against the LPT?

Even more so. At least if you're forced to pay for water you (usually) get the actual water. You get nothing for the LPT.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:21:04 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on November 15, 2017, 04:17:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

I haven't read the thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before, but would you suggest a similar protest against the LPT?

Even more so. At least if you're forced to pay for water you (usually) get the actual water. You get nothing for the LPT.

Well at least you're consistent. Why do you think the left wing groups didn't raise this issue as they did the water? Could it be because many of their voters aren't home owners and so don't get hit with the tax?

Let's all stop paying for anything.

Quote from: Rossfan on November 15, 2017, 04:27:50 PM
Let's all stop paying for anything.

Sort of what I was getting at. I paid my water charges and my LPT. I wondered what was the difference between these two. But what's the difference between them and USC or PAYE?

Quote from: Esmarelda on November 15, 2017, 04:24:35 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:21:04 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on November 15, 2017, 04:17:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

I haven't read the thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before, but would you suggest a similar protest against the LPT?

Even more so. At least if you're forced to pay for water you (usually) get the actual water. You get nothing for the LPT.

Well at least you're consistent. Why do you think the left wing groups didn't raise this issue as they did the water? Could it be because many of their voters aren't home owners and so don't get hit with the tax?

I'm not sure. That's quite possible but they did kick up quite a stink. They didn't get much traction though. It was easier to boycott the water charges as it wasn't a tax and they weren't able to steal it out of your wages. However I do think annoyance at the LPT contributed greatly to the water charges protests. A tax too far. Plus the total mess they made of IW, some of the cronies appointed to IW, their refusal to block privatisation of IW.......it was a perfect storm. The left wing parties at the forefront of this unfortunately hadn't the vision to see what was happening before their eyes or if they did, they hadn't the ability or inclination to harness it. Do they really want power to implement what they talk about - I think deep down lots of them don't - which is unfortunate especially for those within those movements who really want to and would be able to make a difference.

Quote from: Rossfan on November 15, 2017, 04:27:50 PM
Let's all stop paying for anything.

2 plus 2 does not equal 5,673,889.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:36:12 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on November 15, 2017, 04:24:35 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:21:04 PM

Quote from: Esmarelda on November 15, 2017, 04:17:37 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

I haven't read the thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before, but would you suggest a similar protest against the LPT?

Even more so. At least if you're forced to pay for water you (usually) get the actual water. You get nothing for the LPT.

Well at least you're consistent. Why do you think the left wing groups didn't raise this issue as they did the water? Could it be because many of their voters aren't home owners and so don't get hit with the tax?

I'm not sure. That's quite possible but they did kick up quite a stink. They didn't get much traction though. It was easier to boycott the water charges as it wasn't a tax and they weren't able to steal it out of your wages. However I do think annoyance at the LPT contributed greatly to the water charges protests. A tax too far. Plus the total mess they made of IW, some of the cronies appointed to IW, their refusal to block privatisation of IW.......it was a perfect storm. The left wing parties at the forefront of this unfortunately hadn't the vision to see what was happening before their eyes or if they did, they hadn't the ability or inclination to harness it. Do they really want power to implement what they talk about - I think deep down lots of them don't - which is unfortunate especially for those within those movements who really want to and would be able to make a difference.

Good post. I agree about them not wanting power. Some of them of a very narrow political focus and, although they have an important role to play in opposition, they're not ready for government.

Luckily for me I'm loaded and I paid the lot.

Can you imagine Coppinger or Daly if they had nothing to moan about?
They'd disintegrate  ;D They're only happy when they have their many faces on.
Meanwhile hardly a peep out of them about homelessness and the housing crisis.
Much too busy pushing abortion related issues.

Quote from: Rossfan on November 15, 2017, 05:11:14 PM
Can you imagine Coppinger or Daly if they had nothing to moan about?
They'd disintegrate  ;D They're only happy when they have their many faces on.
Meanwhile hardly a peep out of them about homelessness and the housing crisis.
Much too busy pushing abortion related issues.

That's simply not true but it's not the first time you've jumped to the wrong conclusion based on the (I'd guess, limited) evidence you have. And your own bias.

I presume you'll voluntarily be sending your grant money back Seanie?

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 05:17:31 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 15, 2017, 05:11:14 PM
Can you imagine Coppinger or Daly if they had nothing to moan about?
They'd disintegrate  ;D They're only happy when they have their many faces on.
Meanwhile hardly a peep out of them about homelessness and the housing crisis.
Much too busy pushing abortion related issues.

That's simply not true but it's not the first time you've jumped to the wrong conclusion based on the (I'd guess, limited) evidence you have. And your own bias.

I haven't seen protests and marches being organised by the loony left or the Eirigi rent a mob etc..

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 05:17:31 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 15, 2017, 05:11:14 PM
Can you imagine Coppinger or Daly if they had nothing to moan about?
They'd disintegrate  ;D They're only happy when they have their many faces on.
Meanwhile hardly a peep out of them about homelessness and the housing crisis.
Much too busy pushing abortion related issues.

That's simply not true but it's not the first time you've jumped to the wrong conclusion based on the (I'd guess, limited) evidence you have. And your own bias.

And limited intelligence

Some irony that Avondhu talking about limited intelligence ;D

Quote from: gallsman on November 15, 2017, 05:49:15 PM
I presume you'll voluntarily be sending your grant money back Seanie?

I am not sure what you're on about. I didn't get any grant. I never opened any of the letter from IW.

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 15, 2017, 06:19:28 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

You're abusive post doesn't deserve a reply but I'll indulge you.

What you've said there is called a false equivalence. A bit like Rossfan - using a fact and jumping to a completely irrational, unrelated and false conclusion. Like, say, that Mayo won't win Sam until those two ould lads left from their last win pass away. Pure bullshit. No one advocated pumping raw sewage into the sea at any stage. You made that up.

For the record - I pay my all my taxes including Motor Tax which is the funding vehicle set up to fund water services in this country since the 1997 FA. There is more than enough money collected in taxation under its various guises to ensure all facets of water services are catered for. The mismanagement, lack of planning and waste of money is not a reason to add another charge on people for what they're already paying for. You're obviously under some illusion that IW was going to make everything better - clearly that won't happen and couldn't happen as it's full of the same people who managed water services for the local authorities. Mr Kearns who was the county manager who left Sligo county council over €10M in debt being a prime example.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 16, 2017, 02:54:34 PM

Quote from: gallsman on November 15, 2017, 05:49:15 PM
I presume you'll voluntarily be sending your grant money back Seanie?

I am not sure what you're on about. I didn't get any grant. I never opened any of the letter from IW.

So you never registered for the water grant? How many do you think of your fellow non-payers registered for it, knowing it was universally paid even to those not paying charges? A majority?

How do I go about getting a refund of my motor tax seeing as I have to pay for water?

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 16, 2017, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 15, 2017, 06:19:28 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

You're abusive post doesn't deserve a reply but I'll indulge you.

What you've said there is called a false equivalence. A bit like Rossfan - using a fact and jumping to a completely irrational, unrelated and false conclusion. Like, say, that Mayo won't win Sam until those two ould lads left from their last win pass away. Pure bullshit. No one advocated pumping raw sewage into the sea at any stage. You made that up.

For the record - I pay my all my taxes including Motor Tax which is the funding vehicle set up to fund water services in this country since the 1997 FA. There is more than enough money collected in taxation under its various guises to ensure all facets of water services are catered for. The mismanagement, lack of planning and waste of money is not a reason to add another charge on people for what they're already paying for. You're obviously under some illusion that IW was going to make everything better - clearly that won't happen and couldn't happen as it's full of the same people who managed water services for the local authorities. Mr Kearns who was the county manager who left Sligo county council over €10M in debt being a prime example.

Well that's obviously untrue. The taxes go into one big pot and we've been running a budget deficit since the crash, so there isn't enough money to cover everything that's draining from the same pot.
And even if it was true and we had enough money to cover all our spending commitments, you can be sure once times got tight, the water budget would be one of the first to be cut.
Which is why if there was a dedicated income stream for IW it couldn't be touched - there would be a guaranteed income so future investment could be planned with certainty.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 16, 2017, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 15, 2017, 06:19:28 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

You're abusive post doesn't deserve a reply but I'll indulge you.

What you've said there is called a false equivalence. A bit like Rossfan - using a fact and jumping to a completely irrational, unrelated and false conclusion. Like, say, that Mayo won't win Sam until those two ould lads left from their last win pass away. Pure bullshit. No one advocated pumping raw sewage into the sea at any stage. You made that up.

For the record - I pay my all my taxes including Motor Tax which is the funding vehicle set up to fund water services in this country since the 1997 FA. There is more than enough money collected in taxation under its various guises to ensure all facets of water services are catered for. The mismanagement, lack of planning and waste of money is not a reason to add another charge on people for what they're already paying for. You're obviously under some illusion that IW was going to make everything better - clearly that won't happen and couldn't happen as it's full of the same people who managed water services for the local authorities. Mr Kearns who was the county manager who left Sligo county council over €10M in debt being a prime example.

It's a bit rich feeling persecuted after opening your own post by calling people stupid.

Tubberman has already replied with most of what I would have said.

It's worth noting also that of all the reasons protestors gave for not paying their bills, only one of them has been resolved i.e. having to pay the actual money, but the protests have stopped. Unless you've been out protesting about general inefficiency in govt spending (which I don't disagree with) which you claim is the reason you didn't pay Seanie?

Quote from: Tubberman on November 16, 2017, 04:22:20 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 16, 2017, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 15, 2017, 06:19:28 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

You're abusive post doesn't deserve a reply but I'll indulge you.

What you've said there is called a false equivalence. A bit like Rossfan - using a fact and jumping to a completely irrational, unrelated and false conclusion. Like, say, that Mayo won't win Sam until those two ould lads left from their last win pass away. Pure bullshit. No one advocated pumping raw sewage into the sea at any stage. You made that up.

For the record - I pay my all my taxes including Motor Tax which is the funding vehicle set up to fund water services in this country since the 1997 FA. There is more than enough money collected in taxation under its various guises to ensure all facets of water services are catered for. The mismanagement, lack of planning and waste of money is not a reason to add another charge on people for what they're already paying for. You're obviously under some illusion that IW was going to make everything better - clearly that won't happen and couldn't happen as it's full of the same people who managed water services for the local authorities. Mr Kearns who was the county manager who left Sligo county council over €10M in debt being a prime example.

Well that's obviously untrue. The taxes go into one big pot and we've been running a budget deficit since the crash, so there isn't enough money to cover everything that's draining from the same pot.
And even if it was true and we had enough money to cover all our spending commitments, you can be sure once times got tight, the water budget would be one of the first to be cut.
Which is why if there was a dedicated income stream for IW it couldn't be touched - there would be a guaranteed income so future investment could be planned with certainty.

Serious question here - how much of that deficit is used to service our debt that was incurred when bailing out private organisations (the banks)?

Hazard a guess 4% of €65bn = €2.65bn? ???

I believe the books will balance this year.

Quote from: Tubberman on November 16, 2017, 04:22:20 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 16, 2017, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 15, 2017, 06:19:28 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

You're abusive post doesn't deserve a reply but I'll indulge you.

What you've said there is called a false equivalence. A bit like Rossfan - using a fact and jumping to a completely irrational, unrelated and false conclusion. Like, say, that Mayo won't win Sam until those two ould lads left from their last win pass away. Pure bullshit. No one advocated pumping raw sewage into the sea at any stage. You made that up.

For the record - I pay my all my taxes including Motor Tax which is the funding vehicle set up to fund water services in this country since the 1997 FA. There is more than enough money collected in taxation under its various guises to ensure all facets of water services are catered for. The mismanagement, lack of planning and waste of money is not a reason to add another charge on people for what they're already paying for. You're obviously under some illusion that IW was going to make everything better - clearly that won't happen and couldn't happen as it's full of the same people who managed water services for the local authorities. Mr Kearns who was the county manager who left Sligo county council over €10M in debt being a prime example.

Well that's obviously untrue. The taxes go into one big pot and we've been running a budget deficit since the crash, so there isn't enough money to cover everything that's draining from the same pot.
And even if it was true and we had enough money to cover all our spending commitments, you can be sure once times got tight, the water budget would be one of the first to be cut.
Which is why if there was a dedicated income stream for IW it couldn't be touched - there would be a guaranteed income so future investment could be planned with certainty.

Quite the opposite in fact. There's oceans of money available to the exchequer but waste, unwillingness to properly chase tax evaders among other things have meant our current position hasn't been great. That and the ridiculous acceptance of 43% of Europe's bank debt and the interest thereon.

As for the guaranteed future investment - how can you say this? There's absolutely no guarantees with IW, especially if/when Dobby takes it over. This organisation have handed out meaty bonuses to themselves on the basis of what exactly. Your faith in them is blindingly naïve to put it mildly especially with the track records of some involved. Perhaps a national utility company is the best approach but it must be funded from central taxation - taxes people pay on the basis of ability to pay. Well that's the theory anyway. In practice tax avoidance/evasion is the biggest spanner in the works of how our democracy is supposed to work. And IW must be answerable to the government/Oireachtas. If they're not doing their job then the politicians must sort it out or face the consequences.

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 16, 2017, 07:53:43 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 16, 2017, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: macdanger2 on November 15, 2017, 06:19:28 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 15, 2017, 04:13:11 PM
Enjoy your refunds lads, any of ye that were stupid enough to pay. There's no need to thank the thousands of us that stood up for what is right, just get up off your arses the next time yourselves.

You're some arsehole  ;D

You'd prefer not to pay and instead just pump raw sewerage out into the sea

You're abusive post doesn't deserve a reply but I'll indulge you.

What you've said there is called a false equivalence. A bit like Rossfan - using a fact and jumping to a completely irrational, unrelated and false conclusion. Like, say, that Mayo won't win Sam until those two ould lads left from their last win pass away. Pure bullshit. No one advocated pumping raw sewage into the sea at any stage. You made that up.

For the record - I pay my all my taxes including Motor Tax which is the funding vehicle set up to fund water services in this country since the 1997 FA. There is more than enough money collected in taxation under its various guises to ensure all facets of water services are catered for. The mismanagement, lack of planning and waste of money is not a reason to add another charge on people for what they're already paying for. You're obviously under some illusion that IW was going to make everything better - clearly that won't happen and couldn't happen as it's full of the same people who managed water services for the local authorities. Mr Kearns who was the county manager who left Sligo county council over €10M in debt being a prime example.

It's a bit rich feeling persecuted after opening your own post by calling people stupid.

Tubberman has already replied with most of what I would have said.

It's worth noting also that of all the reasons protestors gave for not paying their bills, only one of them has been resolved i.e. having to pay the actual money, but the protests have stopped. Unless you've been out protesting about general inefficiency in govt spending (which I don't disagree with) which you claim is the reason you didn't pay Seanie?

I outlined my reasons quite clearly several times. I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion. A contributory factor but the main one was having to pay a 2nd or 3rd time for a service. Secondly, the fear of IW being privatised once they had established an income stream....I genuinely believe it was only a matter of time before FG handed IW over to their buddy Dobby. No income stream has basically neutralised that. So my main reasons are dealt with. It's still not an ideal situation but a victory nonetheless.

Meanwhile I'm still paying for water and paying tax to subsidise the townies.

Arguing against water taxes is the typical "me first f**k the rest" attitude. It will be viewed in 30 years time as a major mistake and the populist rush that moved to counter them will someday swell to support their introduction.

Typical fucktard attitude of the educated masses.

The €200m which the taxpayer (including those of us who have to pay for water) has to stump up in lieu of public water and sewerage charges would build around 800 social houses annually.
Less people struggling to rent privately = lower rents and lower house prices for the kids of middle class townies.
But NO! Let us keep our €3 a week and to hell with the future.....

Fairy stories guys.

You do know that part of the reason to tax water specifically is to tackle usage. If people have to pay for something you're less likely to waste it. Water is a very expensive commodity, getting people to use it sensibly and sparingly

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on November 25, 2017, 10:39:33 PM
You do know that part of the reason to tax water specifically is to tackle usage. If people have to pay for something you're less likely to waste it. Water is a very expensive commodity, getting people to use it sensibly and sparingly

Fixing the water network would achieve a lot more than an elimination of water wasting by the general public. I wouldn't encourage wasting of water but we're not a country that's short of water - it's just a problem with a creaking network after years of underinvestment that we're only getting a fraction of it to the tap.

Fixing the water network costs  €€€€€s which will have to come from that "General Taxation" so beloved of the loonielefties.
So are we going to pay the extra taxes needed?
Yet all I'm hearing from the Government is tax cuts.
If you want Scandinavian public services.......

Quote from: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 09:47:03 AM
Fixing the water network costs  €€€€€s which will have to come from that "General Taxation" so beloved of the loonielefties.
So are we going to pay the extra taxes needed?
Yet all I'm hearing from the Government is tax cuts.
If you want Scandinavian public services.......

We pay more than enough through direct indirect taxes if FF/FG/Lab hadn't squandered so much money over the years. Hell - we even came up with 43% of Europe's banking debt one time when we were asked to. Where here's a will there's a way. Nationalise our oil and gas, or increase the royalties significantly) - that would pay for a lot.

Quote from: magpie seanie on December 07, 2017, 10:14:15 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 09:47:03 AM
Fixing the water network costs  €€€€€s which will have to come from that "General Taxation" so beloved of the loonielefties.
So are we going to pay the extra taxes needed?
Yet all I'm hearing from the Government is tax cuts.
If you want Scandinavian public services.......

We pay more than enough through direct indirect taxes if FF/FG/Lab hadn't squandered so much money over the years. Hell - we even came up with 43% of Europe's banking debt one time when we were asked to. Where here's a will there's a way. Nationalise our oil and gas, or increase the royalties significantly) - that would pay for a lot.

We paid the banking debt that we were stupid enough to accrue .  That

Whether it was 43% of the Eurozone's ( not Europe's debt is moot) .  That 43% is not the case as further banking debt in other counties has come to light .

Irish based banks accrued that debt. Nothing to do with the Irish people. Our stupid politicians put us on the hook for the debt. There's either a Eurozone or there's not.

As regards gas and oil royalties - how much of each is being extracted from our waters, what would be the royalty and how much would it bring in in a year?
Anyone any idea?

We don't know and this clip, among other excellent insights, explains why. It's 7 minutes but worth it if you're genuinely interested in this scandal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ij_l5szHY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ij_l5szHY)

This video clearly outlines the decline in the Labour Party. Either gross incompetence or blatant lies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvauCoE8-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBvauCoE8-g)

My Cheque arrived today I'm rich for Christmas  8)

Will somebody please think of the half million homes who have to pay for their water?

Quote from: Rossfan on December 11, 2017, 10:54:06 PM
Will somebody please think of the half million homes who have to pay for their water?

They are outside Dublin so they don't really matter
You should know that by now

Quote from: magpie seanie on December 07, 2017, 09:05:20 AM

Quote from: Mayo4Sam on November 25, 2017, 10:39:33 PM
You do know that part of the reason to tax water specifically is to tackle usage. If people have to pay for something you're less likely to waste it. Water is a very expensive commodity, getting people to use it sensibly and sparingly

Fixing the water network would achieve a lot more than an elimination of water wasting by the general public. I wouldn't encourage wasting of water but we're not a country that's short of water - it's just a problem with a creaking network after years of underinvestment that we're only getting a fraction of it to the tap.

You do realise that the water that comes out of the sky can't be drank?
Its costs a huge amount to treat water

We need water charges in the North. It was silly not to introduce them 15 years ago.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57737142 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57737142)