Teachers get it handy!

[tonto1888]

I have a son who is a teacher, temporary contract from September to June, does not get paid for A/L, going on 3 years now. Therefore does not get paid for three months of the yea. He is seriously considering leaving the profession. Can't get a mortgage as job is not secure. The number of friends he knows on similar situation.

Genuine question.

If there is such a shortage of young teachers, then how is it that there are such a number of young teachers stuck on temporary contracts and unable to secure a permanent post?

What am I missing here, because I can't see any explanation for this glaring discrepancy?

its a loophole which, to be honest, needs closing. I had a friend who was in the same situation for a number of years before getting a permanent post

[trueblue1234]

Anyone that goes into teaching will struggle financially.. is there a lower paid degree course job?

i.e if I did law became solicitor/barrister/corporate law?

Engineer degree and so on?

Accounting - trainees in the north get buttons

Most trainees will start low but accounting trainees do seem to be the poor cousins for professional careers. But it does move up consistently with experience. And at 4-5 years is usually a guaranteed reasonable salary. I think it's a fair model to be honest. Some engineer graduates are starting positions at nearly £30k. I think that's too high to be honest for a fresh grad.

[imtommygunn]

Software engineering can be 30-35k which yeah for grads is too high. Then you have people expecting 50+k with about 2 years experience and can't understand why they won't get it...

[Milltown Row2]

Anyone that goes into teaching will struggle financially.. is there a lower paid degree course job?

i.e if I did law became solicitor/barrister/corporate law?

Engineer degree and so on?

Accounting - trainees in the north get buttons

I remember the wife started for a accountancy firm in Belfast when she left college, they were paying her buttons as a tax trainee, though potentially the money would have been a lot better after she completed her exams, when she informed them that she was going to leave and do a teaching degree, they doubled her salary lol!

I get that there are types of graduate jobs that will be low paying at the start, but once you get your professional exams that will far exceed a teachers wage

[Delgany 2nds]

Eye4education labour Market information gives a great insight into under / over supplied career options

[Tony Baloney]

I dont think any young person would regret doing a degree in engineering (broad spectrum) or software eng.

[trailer]

So reading few posts from above. Principals are laying teachers off all over the place and yet there is also a shortage of teachers.

Teaching is the craziest industry ever.

[5times5times]

A big problem in the occupied 6 is, retired teachers are being hired as part-timers in schools, when recent grads are sitting idle.

At god knows what daily rate.

[tbrick18]

]Funding in NI would need to increase by £500 per pupil for schools to balance their budgets. [/b]

The thing to remember is whether a school has a deficit or not  , it's not going to close anytime soon !

It wouldn't matter if funding increased by £500 or £5,000 per pupil; some schools will stay within budget and others will continue to massively overspend. Because there is no accountability. Some of the overspends in schools are absolutely scandalous. Deficits in controlled schools are roughly twice those in maintained schools. And some very high profile principals are among the worst offenders; two have relatively recently moved on to higher profile, more "prestigious" positions, leaving combined debts in the region of £2 million. There's plenty of scope to increase class sizes, amount of teacher contact time and reduce financial burden of management structures in many schools. I know of one school whose staffing is so bloated that it is used as an example of what not to do and, even then, nothing is done about it.

Until principals and governors are held to account for school budget deficits, we will continue to see massive wastage.
[/quote]
This is what I wondered about when the teaching union fella on the radio said 50% of schools have run up deficits, and therefore presumably 50% haven't.  Various excuses were posted on here, but I can't help wonder are some principals just spending away irresponsibly with no regard whatsoever for the consequences.  Which seems damned unfair on principals who are running a tight financial ship. 

For example principal A lays off a teacher to balance the books, but class size increases and parents aren't
[/quote]

Going by news stories this week, English schools are broke as well with SEN  spending through the roof. Scotland the biggest spenders per pupil.

Funding in NI would need to increase by £500 per pupil for schools to balance their budgets.

The thing to remember is whether a school has a deficit or not  , it's not going to close anytime soon !

It wouldn't matter if funding increased by £500 or £5,000 per pupil; some schools will stay within budget and others will continue to massively overspend. Because there is no accountability. Some of the overspends in schools are absolutely scandalous. Deficits in controlled schools are roughly twice those in maintained schools. And some very high profile principals are among the worst offenders; two have relatively recently moved on to higher profile, more "prestigious" positions, leaving combined debts in the region of £2 million. There's plenty of scope to increase class sizes, amount of teacher contact time and reduce financial burden of management structures in many schools. I know of one school whose staffing is so bloated that it is used as an example of what not to do and, even then, nothing is done about it.

Until principals and governors are held to account for school budget deficits, we will continue to see massive wastage.

This is what I wondered about when the teaching union fella on the radio said 50% of schools have run up deficits, and therefore presumably 50% haven't.  Various excuses were posted on here, but I can't help wonder are some principals just spending away irresponsibly with no regard whatsoever for the consequences.  Which seems damned unfair on principals who are running a tight financial ship. 

For example principal A lays off a teacher to balance the books, but class size increases and parents aren't happy.
Principal B in the same position holds onto the teacher and runs up the deficit - no complaints here from the parents, but up goes the deficit and seemingly no accountability for that.

That's not a good system.

Principals can spend money, but ultimately the board of governors are responsible and a
Going by news stories this week, English schools are broke as well with SEN  spending through the roof. Scotland the biggest spenders per pupil.

Funding in NI would need to increase by £500 per pupil for schools to balance their budgets.

The thing to remember is whether a school has a deficit or not  , it's not going to close anytime soon !

It wouldn't matter if funding increased by £500 or £5,000 per pupil; some schools will stay within budget and others will continue to massively overspend. Because there is no accountability. Some of the overspends in schools are absolutely scandalous. Deficits in controlled schools are roughly twice those in maintained schools. And some very high profile principals are among the worst offenders; two have relatively recently moved on to higher profile, more "prestigious" positions, leaving combined debts in the region of £2 million. There's plenty of scope to increase class sizes, amount of teacher contact time and reduce financial burden of management structures in many schools. I know of one school whose staffing is so bloated that it is used as an example of what not to do and, even then, nothing is done about it.

Until principals and governors are held to account for school budget deficits, we will continue to see massive wastage.
[/quote]
This is what I wondered about when the teaching union fella on the radio said 50% of schools have run up deficits, and therefore presumably 50% haven't.  Various excuses were posted on here, but I can't help wonder are some principals just spending away irresponsibly with no regard whatsoever for the consequences.  Which seems damned unfair on principals who are running a tight financial ship. 

For example principal A lays off a teacher to balance the books, but class size increases and parents aren't happy.
Principal B in the same position holds onto the teacher and runs up the deficit - no complaints here from the parents, but up goes the deficit and seemingly no accountability for that.

That's not a good system.
[/quote]

Principals can spend money, but ultimately the board of governors are responsible and a principal answers to them. Generally a BOG will have a finance officer or committee.
If a school runs up a huge deficit, I'd argue it's not all the fault of the principal, it's more of a governance issue.
From what I've seen in schools, the majority of principals are ex teachers who don't have the skillset to manage a business. BOG members, are usually volunteers who will do a certain amount, but don't want to get too involved. A combination of both scenarios are probably a major factor in schools and defecits, BUT schools are underfunded so that compounds the issues.
[/quote]

What have you seen in schools, then?

When schools are properly funded they will generally be in surplus but it is very difficult at the minute.

Also , teachers & non teaching salaries account for 90 - 95% of budget allocation. The Education Authority undertake all the financial planning. Grammar schools have a bursar to manage finances ! So Principals & BOG have little input !


[/quote]

I used to be on a BOG for a primary school - so not close to what happens in Grammar schools, just assumed the governance structures would be similar.

What I've specifically seen in one school, is a principal who spent a lot of money (sometimes funding money meant for one purpose spent on other things), the school getting into financial stress shall we say, and the principal's answer was do take on more children with special needs (as they get more funding) whilst reducing the classroom assistant hours/cleaning hours/kitchen staff hours. Resulting in teachers doing non-teaching tasks like cleaning and not being able to meet the needs of all the SEN children.
Parental complains to BOG made the finance committee put extra governance around the principal's spending power and decision making, but in general it was a total mess.
Kids not getting what they need (primary function of a school), teachers being asked to do unrealistic tasks and the school running a deficit. The under funding compounded the problem, of course, and even everything had been controlled well there still was likely to be a deficit issue, but due to poor governance before I joined the school was on it's a*s.

Appreciate it might not be the same everywhere, but from what I see principals are they are generally former teachers. What experience would they realistically have managing finances of an organisation? IMO, it should be extracted away from a principal and a professional accountant be a mandatory member of the BOG in schools. It won't fix the issue, but shuould reduce issues occurring due to poor management and governance.

[Milltown Row2]

I don't think a teacher just randomly rocks up to being a principle

They have to do the principle which no doubt covers the managing of the school, I'd say (I hope) that it would cover a lot of aspects or the finances and budgeting requirements needed to run schools.

Not sure of any school that has a principle that isn't from an educational background, as the criteria would/should have educational background in it.

I always wondered (outside of doing the interviews) what BOG's did and what real active involvement in regards to funds and budgeting they had

[trailer]

I don't think a teacher just randomly rocks up to being a principle

They have to do the principle which no doubt covers the managing of the school, I'd say (I hope) that it would cover a lot of aspects or the finances and budgeting requirements needed to run schools.

Not sure of any school that has a principle that isn't from an educational background, as the criteria would/should have educational background in it.

I always wondered (outside of doing the interviews) what BOG's did and what real active involvement in regards to funds and budgeting they had

Perhaps they rock up to be a Principal.
Like I said, you'd be a shite teacher

[Milltown Row2]

I don't think a teacher just randomly rocks up to being a principle

They have to do the principle which no doubt covers the managing of the school, I'd say (I hope) that it would cover a lot of aspects or the finances and budgeting requirements needed to run schools.

Not sure of any school that has a principle that isn't from an educational background, as the criteria would/should have educational background in it.

I always wondered (outside of doing the interviews) what BOG's did and what real active involvement in regards to funds and budgeting they had

Perhaps they rock up to be a Principal.
Like I said, you'd be a shite teacher

How long will it take and how many misspells will I get from your previous posts?

I'm not teaching anymore as the money was crap

[Deerstalker]

I don't think a teacher just randomly rocks up to being a principle

They have to do the principle which no doubt covers the managing of the school, I'd say (I hope) that it would cover a lot of aspects or the finances and budgeting requirements needed to run schools.

Not sure of any school that has a principle that isn't from an educational background, as the criteria would/should have educational background in it.

I always wondered (outside of doing the interviews) what BOG's did and what real active involvement in regards to funds and budgeting they had

Perhaps they rock up to be a Principal.
Like I said, you'd be a shite teacher

How long will it take and how many misspells will I get from your previous posts?

I'm not teaching anymore as the money was crap

Did you teach in primary or secondary ?

[Milltown Row2]

I don't think a teacher just randomly rocks up to being a principle

They have to do the principle which no doubt covers the managing of the school, I'd say (I hope) that it would cover a lot of aspects or the finances and budgeting requirements needed to run schools.

Not sure of any school that has a principle that isn't from an educational background, as the criteria would/should have educational background in it.

I always wondered (outside of doing the interviews) what BOG's did and what real active involvement in regards to funds and budgeting they had

Perhaps they rock up to be a Principal.
Like I said, you'd be a shite teacher

How long will it take and how many misspells will I get from your previous posts?

I'm not teaching anymore as the money was crap

Did you teach in primary or secondary ?

College, engineering

[ONeill]

Be honest, have you ever met a teacher who wasn't a total w**ker? Even Mrs Milltown seems a right piece of work.