Ulster Senior football championship 2024

[Blowitupref]

I just want to point out this stat. Cavan are unbeaten in championship against Tyrone in Breffni for more than 40 years.

How many Cavan v Tyrone championship matches has been played in Breffni the last 40 years?

That's irrelevant

It's all relevant.

No its not

To answer my own question one match in 1983 won by Cavan 0-10 to 0-11. Since then in other venues 8 Ulster championship meetings between the two with Tyrone winning 6 and two draws.

[Itchy]

I just want to point out this stat. Cavan are unbeaten in championship against Tyrone in Breffni for more than 40 years.

How many Cavan v Tyrone championship matches has been played in Breffni the last 40 years?

That's irrelevant

It's all relevant.

No its not

To answer my own question one match in 1983 won by Cavan 0-10 to 0-11. Since then in other venues 8 Ulster championship meetings between the two with Tyrone winning 6 and two draws.

It's worth looking before 83 too, they stats are not good for Tyrone. I expect they are frozen with fear for this game.

[yellowcard]

Is it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it.  There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.

I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.

What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?

You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.

The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree. They could miss out on Ulster and make an All Ireland final which to me would be far less of a failure than winning Ulster and going out in the group stages. Similarly I'd rather have been promoted this year than win Ulster. That's not to say doing both wouldn't be nice but simply that Ulster can be viewed in isolation.

You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.

Hmm, honestly if you said to me now win Ulster and go out in group or lose in Ulster and lose in a semi final I think I'd take an Ulster given a fair chunk of our team were in primary school when we last won it.

(Pointless argument anyway because if you win Ulster and go in as top seed there would be something seriously wrong if you couldnt at least make a preliminary QF)

That's a perfectly valid view but I don't think it's one universally shared. I don't feel that way and I feel a provincial championship is as meaningful as it once was.

When you have 6 teams capable of beating eachother in a one off game in a competition it's certainly an achievement to win it!!

I genuinely don't think you have that in Ulster this year but I take your point. My issue is that it's not as meaningful as it once was. I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster at the expense of their future progress certainly not to the extent they might have in years gone bye. For me that makes it less meaningful than it used to be. As has the introduction of the back door. As has the moved to being played in April/May. As has the talk of it potentially being axed all together etc etc.

So I don't think I'm devaluing it out of some kind of coping mechanism for not winning it. I think it merely has become devalued. That's not a view shared by all and I accept that.

What do you think those counties are doing (or not doing) to lead you believe that they are giving less than 100%?

I think every county are trying their best to win a provincial title but for some it's just a safeguard mechanism that if they happen to fail along the way. The proper judgement on that will only come when the season has ended and the year as a whole can be properly assessed.

I don't think they plan to peak for a run at Ulster. I think training is set so they are at a good enough level for Ulster but hope to peak for the later matches. I think they know that being at your absolute best from April to August is much more difficult than peaking in mid to late June. I think in the modern sport science approach that many of the top counties have a similar approach.

In a similar vein I don't think fellas will risk injuries by playing when not fit in provincial games the way you would have seen in previous years.

Of course I could be wrong. As you say the only way you'll ever know is in hindsight.

I don't think player fitness levels will fluctuate very much throughout a season the way players are conditioned now. It's not like in the past where players came back pre season with weight to shed and could train for 4-6 week blocks before the League season or championship campaign began. There just isn't the room to do that anymore and they are conditioned to play matches week on week with a good base line fitness level built up. An injured player mightn't wish to put his season in jeopardy by coming back too soon alright but I don't believe that any county aren't giving 100% to win a provincial championship as there aren't that many cups to win.

Kerry and Dublin might be the rare exception as they are so far ahead of the opposition in their provinces they could probably afford to not taper too much before matches and still win their provinces easily.   

[JoG2]

Is it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it.  There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.

I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.

What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?

You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.

The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree.

I talk alot of nonsense but I'm an honest man re the comment above

You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.

Again, I'm not holding the Anglo Celt up as the be all and end all. It is 1 of 3 major honours my county can win, 1 of 2 in the championship arena. Rarely missing a home or away game in manys a year and being starved of celebrations, winning the Ulster the last two years has been huge for the county. It's the toughest province to win, and if you're able to win it, you're in good stead for the rest of the season. Not only that, you're seeded in pot one and your home, away and neutral are a bit handier.
Your hypothetical scenarios of not winning or sacrificing an Ulster to go deeper in the AI series, does this hold much merit? Armagh would do well to win Ulster and then give the AI a serious rattle, because if you're good enough to win Ulster, you won't be far away. I could maybe understand your pov more if you were from Kerry

[Tones]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

[Armagh18]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

Would have to be seen as a step backwards wouldnt it?

If we lose to Down its a disaster. Looking at potential final opponents- we beat Cavan last year easily so you'd want to be doing the same, we drew with Derry so losing to them would be a backward step, Donegal were shit last year so questions would need asked if they managed to leapfrog us with a new manager. Wouldnt even want to contemplate losing to Tyrone!

[Orior]

I'm looking forward to Derry Donegal match this weekend.

Derry favourites of course, but there is that Jesus factor with Jimmy boy

[tonto1888]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

Would have to be seen as a step backwards wouldnt it?

If we lose to Down its a disaster. Looking at potential final opponents- we beat Cavan last year easily so you'd want to be doing the same, we drew with Derry so losing to them would be a backward step, Donegal were shit last year so questions would need asked if they managed to leapfrog us with a new manager. Wouldnt even want to contemplate losing to Tyrone!

if we get to the final and were beat, again (forget about this draw nonsense, they beat us hence they are the defending champions), by Derry it wouldnt be a step back in my eyes.
Arguably last year was a failure by Armagh given we had played in a higher division and the shenanigans around derry in te lead up to the final. This year, again presuming it is us and derry in the final, derry go in as league champions with a multiple all ireland winning manager and we, well, we dont. Thye played at a higher level than us all year also.

[Tones]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

Would have to be seen as a step backwards wouldnt it?

If we lose to Down its a disaster. Looking at potential final opponents- we beat Cavan last year easily so you'd want to be doing the same, we drew with Derry so losing to them would be a backward step, Donegal were shit last year so questions would need asked if they managed to leapfrog us with a new manager. Wouldnt even want to contemplate losing to Tyrone!

if we get to the final and were beat, again (forget about this draw nonsense, they beat us hence they are the defending champions), by Derry it wouldnt be a step back in my eyes.
Arguably last year was a failure by Armagh given we had played in a higher division and the shenanigans around derry in te lead up to the final. This year, again presuming it is us and derry in the final, derry go in as league champions with a multiple all ireland winning manager and we, well, we dont. Thye played at a higher level than us all year also.

Though it really isn't nonsense they won a penalty shoot out based on rules introduced by Croke Park to compress the GAA season under the guise of Club Welfare  (what has a penalty shoot out got to do with a GAA match),  but really for the leasing of Croke Park over the summer as a business venture.  That aside another year under Geezer with nothing to show would be a failure.

[JoG2]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

Would have to be seen as a step backwards wouldnt it?

If we lose to Down its a disaster. Looking at potential final opponents- we beat Cavan last year easily so you'd want to be doing the same, we drew with Derry so losing to them would be a backward step, Donegal were shit last year so questions would need asked if they managed to leapfrog us with a new manager. Wouldnt even want to contemplate losing to Tyrone!

if we get to the final and were beat, again (forget about this draw nonsense, they beat us hence they are the defending champions), by Derry it wouldnt be a step back in my eyes.
Arguably last year was a failure by Armagh given we had played in a higher division and the shenanigans around derry in te lead up to the final. This year, again presuming it is us and derry in the final, derry go in as league champions with a multiple all ireland winning manager and we, well, we dont. Thye played at a higher level than us all year also.

Though it really isn't nonsense they won a penalty shoot out based on rules introduced by Croke Park to compress the GAA season under the guise of Club Welfare  (what has a penalty shoot out got to do with a GAA match),  but really for the leasing of Croke Park over the summer as a business venture.  That aside another year under Geezer with nothing to show would be a failure.

It is 100% nonsense, couldn't be any more nonsense.
What Croke Pk venture stopped a potential replay the following weekend which was a: free and b: wouldn't be played at Croke Pk? More nonsense! 

[Armagh18]

Without getting into the penalties argument. Still think if Derry were to beat us in normal/extra time it signifies a step back. If Derry have improved so much then why havent we? And if Donegal were to leapfrog us then thats a poor reflection for a team in really the first year of its rebuild.

[tonto1888]

Without getting into the penalties argument. Still think if Derry were to beat us in normal/extra time it signifies a step back. If Derry have improved so much then why havent we? And if Donegal were to leapfrog us then thats a poor reflection for a team in really the first year of its rebuild.

see the afore mentioned multi AI winning manager for one. Playing against better opposition all year. Lack of nonsense around them this year especially in the build up to the - as yet hypothetical Ulster final -  Doesnt mean we havent improved but we may not have improved as much as them

[tbrick18]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

Would have to be seen as a step backwards wouldnt it?

If we lose to Down its a disaster. Looking at potential final opponents- we beat Cavan last year easily so you'd want to be doing the same, we drew with Derry so losing to them would be a backward step, Donegal were shit last year so questions would need asked if they managed to leapfrog us with a new manager. Wouldnt even want to contemplate losing to Tyrone!

if we get to the final and were beat, again (forget about this draw nonsense, they beat us hence they are the defending champions), by Derry it wouldnt be a step back in my eyes.
Arguably last year was a failure by Armagh given we had played in a higher division and the shenanigans around derry in te lead up to the final. This year, again presuming it is us and derry in the final, derry go in as league champions with a multiple all ireland winning manager and we, well, we dont. Thye played at a higher level than us all year also.

Though it really isn't nonsense they won a penalty shoot out based on rules introduced by Croke Park to compress the GAA season under the guise of Club Welfare  (what has a penalty shoot out got to do with a GAA match),  but really for the leasing of Croke Park over the summer as a business venture.  That aside another year under Geezer with nothing to show would be a failure.

Derry won based on the rules of the game.
Whether or not you agree with the rules is up to you but result is there. Derry beat Armagh.
Remains to be see if we can do it again. At the minute I'll be happy if we beat Donegal.

There honestly is no weight of expectation from Derry fans that I'm aware of, I think coming from years of false dawns we now always expect the worst but doesn't stop us from hoping for the best.

[tonto1888]

Armagh season imo hinges on some silverware and the only thing left open to them is an Ulster title, should they get beat by Down or lose an Ulster Final but achieve a step further than last few years in the All Ireland - will that be a success?

Would have to be seen as a step backwards wouldnt it?

If we lose to Down its a disaster. Looking at potential final opponents- we beat Cavan last year easily so you'd want to be doing the same, we drew with Derry so losing to them would be a backward step, Donegal were shit last year so questions would need asked if they managed to leapfrog us with a new manager. Wouldnt even want to contemplate losing to Tyrone!

if we get to the final and were beat, again (forget about this draw nonsense, they beat us hence they are the defending champions), by Derry it wouldnt be a step back in my eyes.
Arguably last year was a failure by Armagh given we had played in a higher division and the shenanigans around derry in te lead up to the final. This year, again presuming it is us and derry in the final, derry go in as league champions with a multiple all ireland winning manager and we, well, we dont. Thye played at a higher level than us all year also.

Though it really isn't nonsense they won a penalty shoot out based on rules introduced by Croke Park to compress the GAA season under the guise of Club Welfare  (what has a penalty shoot out got to do with a GAA match),  but really for the leasing of Croke Park over the summer as a business venture.  That aside another year under Geezer with nothing to show would be a failure.

Derry won based on the rules of the game.
Whether or not you agree with the rules is up to you but result is there. Derry beat Armagh.
Remains to be see if we can do it again. At the minute I'll be happy if we beat Donegal.

There honestly is no weight of expectation from Derry fans that I'm aware of, I think coming from years of false dawns we now always expect the worst but doesn't stop us from hoping for the best.

as an armagh man I agree and it bugs me when people say otherwise.
As for your last sentence beent here for a long time but i have now moved onto expecting the worst and getting it haha

[imtommygunn]

Without getting into the penalties argument. Still think if Derry were to beat us in normal/extra time it signifies a step back. If Derry have improved so much then why havent we? And if Donegal were to leapfrog us then thats a poor reflection for a team in really the first year of its rebuild.

Tbh though Derry had significant upheaval going into that game last year. I would say Derry are a bit (good bit) ahead of where Armagh are. Derry are in the top 3 counties but Armagh aren't and weren't. I am not convinced that Armagh would have been as close to them had the circumstances been normal - will never know granted.

If Armagh beat Derry in normal time they've improved massively.

(Not a derry person!)