A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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Rossfan

Wasn't much choice after Bloody Sunday.
Campaign should have been called off after the Anglo Irish agreement in 1985.
However the thread's title is about the future so let's look forward and see where we go rather than dissecting the past....
(As long as the GAA stops using white Irish Catholic players of course😆)
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Syferus

#2161
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 11:17:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Violence is rarely the only option. To say so is such a convienent lie I can't let it pass.

It was the only option in 1916...and it was the only option after 1969/and or Bloody Sunday, depending on when you want to start.

In 1916! The public and a lot of the IRB themselves were against the Rising.

smelmoth

Quote from: naka on March 09, 2018, 08:46:59 PM
Arguments that Adams and mc Guinness did the same.
Smelmouth
We can differ on opinion, I lived through all  the troubles as was born in the 60s I am an avid reader of history across the world, like Sykes /picot agreement , NI was a mess from the start
We can argue all night .
ANC atrocities 1983 airforce bombing in Pretoria 19 killed, 219 injured, 1980 sasbourg oil refinery attack , in the truth and reconciliation report they accepted responsibility for 500 bombings over 11 years as well as 95 associated bomb attacks not in their name, the acceptance that they planted land mines that killed farm workers.
Their report makes for grim reading

Always willing to read new material so post up your evidence that Adams and McGuinness' campaign of violence had a massive majority.
Post the evidence that they gaining access to elections. Post the evidence that Catholics/ nationalists were barred from public office. Post your evidence that they were denied access to a free print press. Post your evidence that they could not have used peaceful protest and access to foreign media (and I'm not denying the atrocity of Bloody Sunday). This will be the evidence that they had no option but the violent one.

How exactly are you linking Mandela to culpability for events in the 1980s

smelmoth

#2163
Quote from: ned on March 09, 2018, 10:08:57 PM
A Catholic's situation in the north was not as dire as the black South Africans, however, we were essentially viewed as second class and not worthy of equal rights hence the civil rights movement which was supported by more than just the nationalist people.

"When a man is denied the right to live the life he believes in, he has no choice but to become an outlaw." Nelson Mandela

Having come through the trauma of the troubles whether on one side or the other, every person, whatever their involvement, had the right to have their say.

"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison." Nelson Mandela

Just because a party's "terrorist" history is longer in the past doesn't mean they have a greater moral compass.

Don't make the assumption that the leap between "there certainly was discrimination " and "therefore any reaction including indiscriminate murder is legitimate" is a small or obvious one

smelmoth

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 09, 2018, 10:38:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on March 09, 2018, 08:46:03 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 06:52:22 PM
How did the majority of nationalists vote whilst the violence was ongoing?

SDLP. It wasn't until after the IRA ceasefire that SF took over the majority of nationalist votes.

Helped by the carve up with DUP and SF agreeing at St Andrews that the FM would no longer be from the majority representatives from one community and that FM and DFM would be appointed by the majority party on each side with no vote necessary for Assembly approval. Suits the DUP in destroying UUP and wiping SF eye by ensuring that ILA was never included in the legislation by the Blair government.

This mechanism has polarised the voting as both sides demand that voters should vote for them to keep the other side out/in of FM.

Results now in the FM appointment becoming the most important aspect of the election for the assembly.  So, instead of four relatively equal parties the dominant parties can never be removed from government.  Imagine if an election could be held and unionist voters could vote out DUP without worrying that a non-unionist would take over as FM. Instead we have mirror opposites without any hope of compromise.

A sound analysis

smelmoth

Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM
Catholics in the North had it bad,but not as bad as Mandela and his supporters had it. Pure dung.

Are you taking this show on tour?

How much are the tickets

ned

Long before Mandela was freed and ANC came to government in South Africa, the world knew about apartheid. Still took a long time for it to end.
You can't equate Catholics situation in the north with blacks in South Africa exactly. Does not mean it was all sweetness and light. Also there is the added complication of the wish for a UI. They may have been alternative means of bringing about equality but the unionists, and the British government, sure as hell weren't showing any sign of compromise. Of course there is an argument that things would have changed naturally without conflict but we will never know this. It's the same the world over.

smelmoth

Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM


Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers.

Post this evidence.

Post the causal link between an indiscriminate bombing in a Protestant town and rights for Catholics.
Post the evidence that there was no option.
Post these university figures

smelmoth

Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 11:17:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 09, 2018, 11:02:12 PM
Violence is rarely the only option. To say so is such a convienent lie I can't let it pass.

It was the only option in 1916...and it was the only option after 1969/and or Bloody Sunday, depending on when you want to start.

Prove it.

And if it was the only option why was their neither mass action or mass support?

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM


Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers.

Post this evidence.

Post the causal link between an indiscriminate bombing in a Protestant town and rights for Catholics.
Post the evidence that there was no option.
Post these university figures

Don't waste your time on him, just a WUM. Use the block mechanism.

smelmoth

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 10, 2018, 11:52:05 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM


Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers.

Post this evidence.

Post the causal link between an indiscriminate bombing in a Protestant town and rights for Catholics.
Post the evidence that there was no option.
Post these university figures

Don't waste your time on him, just a WUM. Use the block mechanism.

I hear you but it's a bit broader than that.

Those that supported paramilitary violence have a recurring pattern in the behaviour

Attempt to whitewash history
Invent a level of popular support
Result to name calling
Don't answer questions

It's important that rational people don't let them away with that

seafoid

Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM


Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers.

Post this evidence.

Post the causal link between an indiscriminate bombing in a Protestant town and rights for Catholics.
Post the evidence that there was no option.
Post these university figures
The NI economy collapsed between 1970 and the late 90s. The public sector was expanded to provide missing jobs. The economy has never fully recovered.
Catholic levels of education seem to be higher.
Sunningdale was rejected in 1974 or 5 by Paisley and Co.  You could argue that violence delivered it a generation later.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

smelmoth

#2172
Quote from: seafoid on March 10, 2018, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM


Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers.

Post this evidence.

Post the causal link between an indiscriminate bombing in a Protestant town and rights for Catholics.
Post the evidence that there was no option.
Post these university figures
The NI economy collapsed between 1970 and the late 90s. The public sector was expanded to provide missing jobs. The economy has never fully recovered.
Catholic levels of education seem to be higher.
Sunningdale was rejected in 1974 or 5 by Paisley and Co.  You could argue that violence delivered it a generation later.

The argument that it is legitimate to commit murder can NEVER be based on " you could argue " or "seemed"

That sounded like a contempt for human life

red hander

So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

smelmoth

Quote from: red hander on March 10, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?