China Coronavirus

[thewobbler]

We're rehashing a lot of old arguments around vaccines. But I will leave you with a couple of thoughts. Unless a large percentage of the population get vaccinated certainly greater than 70% we will never have normal. It'll be rolling maybe localised lockdowns as we deal with flare ups or even worse mutations. So what is your solution / alternative?
For those people who want a better society then nothing will improve your community more than you getting the vaccine. So you can complain about governments and their handling of this pandemic but to be offered this route out and then not take it is foolish. No government will stand for a health service being overstretched. BJ made it clear with English roadmap that the vaccination programme's success is key. If it starts to run out of steam then restrictions will continue.

Wobbler asked the question: "why would any young person get vaccinated?"

i) because Covid poses a threat to them, perhaps not a massive threat, but a threat nonetheless
ii) because Covid poses a greater threat to older people, and we all know and love or have loved older people, and they deserve a fair shot at living
iii) because we have to exist in society - and every person alive has an interest that society functions - and it cannot function with Covid running rampant

This is about basic societal solidarity, not horrible individualism

Therefore it is entirely appropriate that society puts measures in place which give advantages to those who are responsible and disadvantages those who are not

If your mother was in hospital, should she have the choice of being treated or attended to by somebody who has refused to be vaccinated

Should she have that information

What if she is not in a position to make that choice

To any reasonable person, the answer is yes, she should have that choice, or if she is not in a position to make that choice, her loved ones should

That is a real case of empowering society to make the best decisions

And if somebody who refuses to get vaccinated suffers from that, well, that's their choice, but they shouldn't expect there not to be consequences

"Societal solidarity"

"Empowering society"

"To any reasonable person"

Emotive language cannot mask the fact that the utopia you yearn for, demands that any citizen who refuses to succumb to your will, would be outcast. As societal policies go, the sheer black and white stance means it doesn't get much more divisive than that.

Out of curiosity - and this is a genuine question not a fishing attempt - is there a percentage of the population you have in mind, that must agree with your approach, before it can be considered the will of society? Would 50.1% be enough? Would 70% be enough to trod over the wishes of 30%? I'm assuming that the feelings of the great unwashed wouldn't be ignored.

[Milltown Row2]

The vaccine discussion tends to end up with pro-vaccine zealots smirking and nodding heads at each other after posting something along the lines of "same lad won't take the vaccine just ordered a mystery meat burger / line of coke / something heavily processed".

Would you wise to f**k up folks. Here's the basics: when you buy anything local or buy anything often, it's traceable. Not what's in it, so much as if there's any side effects. And if there's no known side effects, then what does it matter what's in it?

Stop acting like you're smarter and more considered about risk than anyone else. We are humans. We are all born with eyes, ears and noses, that allow us to risk detect what we digest.

——

I'll take the vaccination by the way. But why we would force/expect healthy people in their teens and twenties to take a vaccine for a virus that is basically a non threat to them, well that's just f**king wrong on every level.

We give healthy kids vaccines every year, and not an eyebrow raised.

It is fair to say MR2 that there are concerns about them around autism etc, im not sure of scientific evidence, but it was always talked about when my children were young

There is absolutely no evidence, scientific or otherwise, that supports those claims. Andrew Wakefield who published that report has been struck off and widely discredited.

I'm at odds with this as I don't know the full facts on whether autism has been increased or caused by vaccinations, I'd be certain that autism has been around for a long time, before national vaccines were brought about, so I think it hasn't been generated by a vaccine. 

[GetOverTheBar]

To the people who are having doubts about the vaccine - or just downright refusing it.

You do know that if not enough people get it then the chances of it mutating into something else (and causing many many more lockdowns and deaths) is much higher - thats the way virus' work.

So if we just settle for some of the population getting vaccinated what is your solution to eradicate or reduce this virus?

Will you be content with more lockdowns when the time comes and it mutates?

I am just trying to see some logical rationale here and what your alternatives are.

Your fundamental point is incorrect.

The only verifiable upside of a vaccine is that it reduces severity of the virus. It does not reduce people cathcing it or transmitting it that has been proven yet. It does not stop the vaccine from mutating that been proven yet.

The whole premise of your argument is flawed.

For the likes of me, someone fit and healthy in the u40 category, there is no upside to the vaccine for me that would encourage me to take it? It's not going to save my life, all it might do is give me a rather milder dose of something that is not going to cause problems anyway. But yet there are a number of zealots here who demand people should not have free will to decide whether they want to get an injection or not and there are a lot of genuine grounds for people having reservations that people are ignoring. It's basically fascism that people are trying to force this vaccine on the general population.

I don't know if anyone will take that argument on with you Angelo. It's fair enough.

Look this is just going to be a life choice - You can't force people to have a vaccine, it's just immoral to suggest anyone take something they don't want to. That is the world, thankfully we live in.

I think we ran a poll here again recently and it was heavily in favour of those who would take the vaccine, but if you choose to not take the vaccine I would have no problem with you either. I'm 28, do I want to take the vaccine? Not particularly, will I take it if it gets me back to a decent life? Absolutely.

I do not agree with the forcing of the vaccine onto people via vaccine passports and this type of thing that is flying around. Surely there is a trade off to be made, if we have vaccinated the most vulnerable third of the population in Northern Ireland....isn't that what the aim was all along?

[armaghniac]

Do the Wobblers, Rudis etc ever wonder why polio, diphtheria,  smallpox and other former prevalent diseases don't attack us any more?
Thankfully there was no Facebook when those vaccines started.
Hopefully we will see "No vaccination No entry" policy in vogue everywhere.

That is a dangerous path to trod.

It won't help anything, infact it will maybe undermine things more than you appreciate.

The figures are out, people know. 99.98% of people will get Covid and be fine.....to bring in something like that people will start going on the mad conspiracy tangents....it's not helpful to try and promote something like that - we need people to take it on of their own free will, when you force, there will be resistance.

There are restrictions on people all the time, naked people cannot go into supermarkets in most places.
I would expect restrictions on people who refuse to get vaccinated. They are free to make that choice if they stay away from other people, but they should not be allowed go on aeroplanes, work in health care environments or indeed enter GAA grounds.

This is not an imminent thing, there is still 6 months of vaccination to go. By then there will have been up to one billion people vaccinated, there will be 7 or 8 vaccines using different approaches, there will be hundreds of research datasets describing the use of the these. Any problems will be addressed and concerns can be alleviated if people look to this information and not nutters on Facebook. But if people wish to ignore science and be thran for their own reasons, then they must pay a price in terms of lack of access to public places inhabited by responsible people.

[Milltown Row2]

To the people who are having doubts about the vaccine - or just downright refusing it.

You do know that if not enough people get it then the chances of it mutating into something else (and causing many many more lockdowns and deaths) is much higher - thats the way virus' work.

So if we just settle for some of the population getting vaccinated what is your solution to eradicate or reduce this virus?

Will you be content with more lockdowns when the time comes and it mutates?

I am just trying to see some logical rationale here and what your alternatives are.

Your fundamental point is incorrect.

The only verifiable upside of a vaccine is that it reduces severity of the virus. It does not reduce people cathcing it or transmitting it that has been proven yet. It does not stop the vaccine from mutating that been proven yet.

The whole premise of your argument is flawed.

For the likes of me, someone fit and healthy in the u40 category, there is no upside to the vaccine for me that would encourage me to take it? It's not going to save my life, all it might do is give me a rather milder dose of something that is not going to cause problems anyway. But yet there are a number of zealots here who demand people should not have free will to decide whether they want to get an injection or not and there are a lot of genuine grounds for people having reservations that people are ignoring. It's basically fascism that people are trying to force this vaccine on the general population.

I don't know if anyone will take that argument on with you Angelo. It's fair enough.

Look this is just going to be a life choice - You can't force people to have a vaccine, it's just immoral to suggest anyone take something they don't want to. That is the world, thankfully we live in.

I think we ran a poll here again recently and it was heavily in favour of those who would take the vaccine, but if you choose to not take the vaccine I would have no problem with you either. I'm 28, do I want to take the vaccine? Not particularly, will I take it if it gets me back to a decent life? Absolutely.

I do not agree with the forcing of the vaccine onto people via vaccine passports and this type of thing that is flying around. Surely there is a trade off to be made, if we have vaccinated the most vulnerable third of the population in Northern Ireland....isn't that what the aim was all along?

Will you wait till your children are old enough to make up their own decisions on the vaccines they should take at an early age?

[GetOverTheBar]

Do the Wobblers, Rudis etc ever wonder why polio, diphtheria,  smallpox and other former prevalent diseases don't attack us any more?
Thankfully there was no Facebook when those vaccines started.
Hopefully we will see "No vaccination No entry" policy in vogue everywhere.

That is a dangerous path to trod.

It won't help anything, infact it will maybe undermine things more than you appreciate.

The figures are out, people know. 99.98% of people will get Covid and be fine.....to bring in something like that people will start going on the mad conspiracy tangents....it's not helpful to try and promote something like that - we need people to take it on of their own free will, when you force, there will be resistance.

There are restrictions on people all the time, naked people cannot go into supermarkets in most places.
I would expect restrictions on people who refuse to get vaccinated. They are free to make that choice if they stay away from other people, but they should not be allowed go on aeroplanes, work in health care environments or indeed enter GAA grounds.

This is not an imminent thing, there is still 6 months of vaccination to go. By then there will have been up to one billion people vaccinated, there will be 7 or 8 vaccines using different approaches, there will be hundreds of research datasets describing the use of the these. Any problems will be addressed and concerns can be alleviated if people look to this information and not nutters on Facebook. But if people wish to ignore science and be thran for their own reasons, then they must pay a price in terms of lack of access to public places inhabited by responsible people.

You realise what you are saying here?

[Angelo]

Do the Wobblers, Rudis etc ever wonder why polio, diphtheria,  smallpox and other former prevalent diseases don't attack us any more?
Thankfully there was no Facebook when those vaccines started.
Hopefully we will see "No vaccination No entry" policy in vogue everywhere.

That is a dangerous path to trod.

It won't help anything, infact it will maybe undermine things more than you appreciate.

The figures are out, people know. 99.98% of people will get Covid and be fine.....to bring in something like that people will start going on the mad conspiracy tangents....it's not helpful to try and promote something like that - we need people to take it on of their own free will, when you force, there will be resistance.

There are restrictions on people all the time, naked people cannot go into supermarkets in most places.
I would expect restrictions on people who refuse to get vaccinated. They are free to make that choice if they stay away from other people, but they should not be allowed go on aeroplanes, work in health care environments or indeed enter GAA grounds.

This is not an imminent thing, there is still 6 months of vaccination to go. By then there will have been up to one billion people vaccinated, there will be 7 or 8 vaccines using different approaches, there will be hundreds of research datasets describing the use of the these. Any problems will be addressed and concerns can be alleviated if people look to this information and not nutters on Facebook. But if people wish to ignore science and be thran for their own reasons, then they must pay a price in terms of lack of access to public places inhabited by responsible people.

Would you describe people who want to force or demonise citizens who have genuine concerns over taking the vaccine as nutters? Or is that how you like to paint people that disagree with you?

[Louther]

Some people making decision that they fit and healthy, which is what they are now, today.

In real time, that could change tomorrow for any number of reasons and they could land in a vulnerable person category. I'd like to give myself a chance if that were to happen and already have a vaccine in place for myself.

You can't force people to take one but you'd like to think they make informed decisions rather than working off hearsay.

[trailer]

Anyone.... what is your alternative if we don't get the necessary numbers vaccinated? What is the alternative? I don't want to hear that you're not a risk as I get that but in a wider sense if a large cohort don't get the vaccine then what is your solution for the pandemic?

For me it's a wee bit like the NI protocol argument. Unionists don't like it, I don't particularly like it if I'm honest but I haven't heard a viable alternative. So I get that people want freedom and a choice and they aren't at risk etc etc, but what is your alternative to bring an end to this pandemic?

[thewobbler]

Some people making decision that they fit and healthy, which is what they are now, today.

In real time, that could change tomorrow for any number of reasons and they could land in a vulnerable person category. I'd like to give myself a chance if that were to happen and already have a vaccine in place for myself.

You can't force people to take one but you'd like to think they make informed decisions rather than working off hearsay.

Same people make a similar decision each winter about the flu jab. The elderly get it. Those with underlying health conditions get it. People who are susceptible to heavy flus get it. Most of us don't bother as we either haven't had a proper flu, or have had a proper flu so rarely, that the benefits to accrued are minimal.

As a species we are innately good at measuring risk.

——

Before some gobshite rounds on me for comparing flu with Covid, I am not. I am comparing the thought processes of people who seek inoculations.

[sid waddell]

We're rehashing a lot of old arguments around vaccines. But I will leave you with a couple of thoughts. Unless a large percentage of the population get vaccinated certainly greater than 70% we will never have normal. It'll be rolling maybe localised lockdowns as we deal with flare ups or even worse mutations. So what is your solution / alternative?
For those people who want a better society then nothing will improve your community more than you getting the vaccine. So you can complain about governments and their handling of this pandemic but to be offered this route out and then not take it is foolish. No government will stand for a health service being overstretched. BJ made it clear with English roadmap that the vaccination programme's success is key. If it starts to run out of steam then restrictions will continue.

Wobbler asked the question: "why would any young person get vaccinated?"

i) because Covid poses a threat to them, perhaps not a massive threat, but a threat nonetheless
ii) because Covid poses a greater threat to older people, and we all know and love or have loved older people, and they deserve a fair shot at living
iii) because we have to exist in society - and every person alive has an interest that society functions - and it cannot function with Covid running rampant

This is about basic societal solidarity, not horrible individualism

Therefore it is entirely appropriate that society puts measures in place which give advantages to those who are responsible and disadvantages those who are not

If your mother was in hospital, should she have the choice of being treated or attended to by somebody who has refused to be vaccinated

Should she have that information

What if she is not in a position to make that choice

To any reasonable person, the answer is yes, she should have that choice, or if she is not in a position to make that choice, her loved ones should

That is a real case of empowering society to make the best decisions

And if somebody who refuses to get vaccinated suffers from that, well, that's their choice, but they shouldn't expect there not to be consequences

"Societal solidarity"

"Empowering society"

"To any reasonable person"

Emotive language cannot mask the fact that the utopia you yearn for, demands that any citizen who refuses to succumb to your will, would be outcast. As societal policies go, the sheer black and white stance means it doesn't get much more divisive than that.

Out of curiosity - and this is a genuine question not a fishing attempt - is there a percentage of the population you have in mind, that must agree with your approach, before it can be considered the will of society? Would 50.1% be enough? Would 70% be enough to trod over the wishes of 30%? I'm assuming that the feelings of the great unwashed wouldn't be ignored.

So to you, the "reasonable" position is that Covid-positive medical staff should be allowed spread the virus to patients

That's your "utopia"

Figures

[GetOverTheBar]

To the people who are having doubts about the vaccine - or just downright refusing it.

You do know that if not enough people get it then the chances of it mutating into something else (and causing many many more lockdowns and deaths) is much higher - thats the way virus' work.

So if we just settle for some of the population getting vaccinated what is your solution to eradicate or reduce this virus?

Will you be content with more lockdowns when the time comes and it mutates?

I am just trying to see some logical rationale here and what your alternatives are.

Your fundamental point is incorrect.

The only verifiable upside of a vaccine is that it reduces severity of the virus. It does not reduce people cathcing it or transmitting it that has been proven yet. It does not stop the vaccine from mutating that been proven yet.

The whole premise of your argument is flawed.

For the likes of me, someone fit and healthy in the u40 category, there is no upside to the vaccine for me that would encourage me to take it? It's not going to save my life, all it might do is give me a rather milder dose of something that is not going to cause problems anyway. But yet there are a number of zealots here who demand people should not have free will to decide whether they want to get an injection or not and there are a lot of genuine grounds for people having reservations that people are ignoring. It's basically fascism that people are trying to force this vaccine on the general population.

I don't know if anyone will take that argument on with you Angelo. It's fair enough.

Look this is just going to be a life choice - You can't force people to have a vaccine, it's just immoral to suggest anyone take something they don't want to. That is the world, thankfully we live in.

I think we ran a poll here again recently and it was heavily in favour of those who would take the vaccine, but if you choose to not take the vaccine I would have no problem with you either. I'm 28, do I want to take the vaccine? Not particularly, will I take it if it gets me back to a decent life? Absolutely.

I do not agree with the forcing of the vaccine onto people via vaccine passports and this type of thing that is flying around. Surely there is a trade off to be made, if we have vaccinated the most vulnerable third of the population in Northern Ireland....isn't that what the aim was all along?

Will you wait till your children are old enough to make up their own decisions on the vaccines they should take at an early age?

You know that is not the same thing MTR2. It's an emotional viewpoint (and theoretical at this stage....!) so I can't give you an answer.

I'm not anti vaccination, I will take it surely. But I do not believe we should be allowed to force it onto others. It's not something I'll go to the grave arguing, but I don't feel we need to do this for something that statistically....you'll be be grand (if not 50+).

I realise that will upset those in the 50+ age bracket, but it's kind of a similar thing to hear if you are under and you know you'll be fine without a vaccination. We have locked down and put our lives on hold for whatever time it's been now to protect the vulnerable (and the NHS)....so now they are largely all sorted. Can we not go through the rest of the population who wants it....those that don't ?

You can't send them to the Gulags like Armaghniac proposes, that type of thinking can not and will not thankfully be taken seriously but are we suggesting we treat people who don't get vaccinated (for whatever reason) as outcasts? I mean that is ridiculous thinking, they might never get it in their lives anyway...

[Redhand Santa]

Some people making decision that they fit and healthy, which is what they are now, today.

In real time, that could change tomorrow for any number of reasons and they could land in a vulnerable person category. I'd like to give myself a chance if that were to happen and already have a vaccine in place for myself.

You can't force people to take one but you'd like to think they make informed decisions rather than working off hearsay.

Same people make a similar decision each winter about the flu jab. The elderly get it. Those with underlying health conditions get it. People who are susceptible to heavy flus get it. Most of us don't bother as we either haven't had a proper flu, or have had a proper flu so rarely, that the benefits to accrued are minimal.

As a species we are innately good at measuring risk.

——

Before some gobshite rounds on me for comparing flu with Covid, I am not. I am comparing the thought processes of people who seek inoculations.

Yeah but there's definitely a higher level of risk with covid. You only need to look at the numbers that have been in hospitals in recent months (a lot of whom are u60) - it might not kill a younger person but it could take a lot out of them. Also given this particular strain of virus is new and more infectious than flu there is also a much greater chance of getting it.

[lenny]

Some people making decision that they fit and healthy, which is what they are now, today.

In real time, that could change tomorrow for any number of reasons and they could land in a vulnerable person category. I'd like to give myself a chance if that were to happen and already have a vaccine in place for myself.

You can't force people to take one but you'd like to think they make informed decisions rather than working off hearsay.

Same people make a similar decision each winter about the flu jab. The elderly get it. Those with underlying health conditions get it. People who are susceptible to heavy flus get it. Most of us don't bother as we either haven't had a proper flu, or have had a proper flu so rarely, that the benefits to accrued are minimal.

As a species we are innately good at measuring risk.

——

Before some gobshite rounds on me for comparing flu with Covid, I am not. I am comparing the thought processes of people who seek inoculations.

Not only are you protecting yourself by getting the covid vaccine, you are protecting all your family, close friends, work colleagues and everyone you come into contact with. Also, if you're young, fit and healthy you might have an extremely low risk of death from covid but you still have a not insignificant risk of serious long term damage to your health or of getting long covid which is extremely debilitating. The vaccine will stop you having to worry about that happening to yourself or family.

[trailer]

Some people making decision that they fit and healthy, which is what they are now, today.

In real time, that could change tomorrow for any number of reasons and they could land in a vulnerable person category. I'd like to give myself a chance if that were to happen and already have a vaccine in place for myself.

You can't force people to take one but you'd like to think they make informed decisions rather than working off hearsay.

Same people make a similar decision each winter about the flu jab. The elderly get it. Those with underlying health conditions get it. People who are susceptible to heavy flus get it. Most of us don't bother as we either haven't had a proper flu, or have had a proper flu so rarely, that the benefits to accrued are minimal.

As a species we are innately good at measuring risk.

——

Before some gobshite rounds on me for comparing flu with Covid, I am not. I am comparing the thought processes of people who seek inoculations.

That approach won't work though because this is Coronavirus and not the flu. Remember the uproar back in Feb / Mar 2020 when the UK based their approach on a flu model and not Coronavirus? That's not a viable alternative.