You're All British in the North Now!!

Started by screenexile, October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM

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screenexile

Quote from: johnnycool on October 15, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on October 15, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quoterecognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?

No... De Souza is trying to say that she only has Irish Citizenship when this is not the case.

According too the law being born in the North means you're automatically a British citizen until you denounce it!


David McKeown

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 15, 2019, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 15, 2019, 10:24:02 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

And if the GFA or anything similar to it never existed, Mrs. De Souza would still be regarded as a full British Citizen by the UK anyway, so it's a moot point here. I'm also seeing some historical revision - I don't recall any mention by anyone at wishing to have negative identity legally enshrined back in 1997/98 when discussions were ongoing, or when the agreement was signed, or when it was being put to a referendum to be ratified. Positive identity most certainly, but not negative. But sure, it's easy to blame the Brits or the Shinners etc. of the time.

Just to add, although I'm sure they're well aware of this but if the De Souza's have any children together in future they will automatically acquire US citizenship through their father. Obviously the GFA doesn't come into this, but the US Government will regard them as US citizens even if neither the child or both their parents chose to identify themselves as such. In that sense, they would be legally required to enter or leave the USA with an American passport while as adults they are also subject to US taxation laws etc. as I mentioned earlier. They can renounce it, but it's not that easy (or cheap) to do...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

Essentially, you can only give your renunciation in person at a US Embassy or Consulate, signing your renunciation is irrevocable and once confirmed and approved essentially means that to visit the USA in the future, you'll be treated as any other foreigner whom never held US citizenship in the first place - but that does not stop you from (in their eyes) fulfilling your tax, financial or military obligations under US law. Also, there is a fee for renouncing your American citizenship. I don't have a figure for 2019, but the most recent fee I've seen is an eye-watering US$2350! And you thought the fee to renounce British citizenship was bad.  :o

I think that's exactly the point. The GFA made zero impact on the UK's views regarding those born in Northern Ireland and wishing to identify as Irish. That in turn begs the question if that is the case then why was it included in the GFA in the first place? If we assume that all parties intend to give effect to all parts of the treaties they sign up to (basic rules of statutory interpretation) then to me it would appear that the UK are breach of their international obligations under the GFA as they failed to do anything in domestic law to give effect to what they signed up for.
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omaghjoe

Quote from: tiempo on October 15, 2019, 10:25:10 AM
Britain - Union between England and Wales
Great Britain - Union between England Wales and Scotland

UK - GB & 6 counties
Free State - demilitrised zone for quislings

This is typical of the general public's rationale to understand the terminology of the jurisdiction of these islands

David McKeown

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 05:37:48 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 15, 2019, 11:07:35 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on October 15, 2019, 10:24:02 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

And if the GFA or anything similar to it never existed, Mrs. De Souza would still be regarded as a full British Citizen by the UK anyway, so it's a moot point here. I'm also seeing some historical revision - I don't recall any mention by anyone at wishing to have negative identity legally enshrined back in 1997/98 when discussions were ongoing, or when the agreement was signed, or when it was being put to a referendum to be ratified. Positive identity most certainly, but not negative. But sure, it's easy to blame the Brits or the Shinners etc. of the time.

Just to add, although I'm sure they're well aware of this but if the De Souza's have any children together in future they will automatically acquire US citizenship through their father. Obviously the GFA doesn't come into this, but the US Government will regard them as US citizens even if neither the child or both their parents chose to identify themselves as such. In that sense, they would be legally required to enter or leave the USA with an American passport while as adults they are also subject to US taxation laws etc. as I mentioned earlier. They can renounce it, but it's not that easy (or cheap) to do...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

Essentially, you can only give your renunciation in person at a US Embassy or Consulate, signing your renunciation is irrevocable and once confirmed and approved essentially means that to visit the USA in the future, you'll be treated as any other foreigner whom never held US citizenship in the first place - but that does not stop you from (in their eyes) fulfilling your tax, financial or military obligations under US law. Also, there is a fee for renouncing your American citizenship. I don't have a figure for 2019, but the most recent fee I've seen is an eye-watering US$2350! And you thought the fee to renounce British citizenship was bad.  :o

I think that's exactly the point. The GFA made zero impact on the UK's views regarding those born in Northern Ireland and wishing to identify as Irish. That in turn begs the question if that is the case then why was it included in the GFA in the first place? If we assume that all parties intend to give effect to all parts of the treaties they sign up to (basic rules of statutory interpretation) then to me it would appear that the UK are breach of their international obligations under the GFA as they failed to do anything in domestic law to give effect to what they signed up for.

From the point of view you're presenting, the problem is that to solve that issue is not that simple. As I've already mentioned, most whom are born in NI are automatically granted UK citizenship and like pretty much every such country that does the same, you cannot passively renounce it. If UK nationality law was changed in NI to where being born there no longer granted automatic British citizenship at birth, but gave formal rights when actively applied for as is the case presently regarding Irish citizenship for those born in NI, this leaves us with a situation where most babies in NI are born stateless due to a lack of jus soli. That in itself throws up a fair few potential problems especially if there are questions concerning parentage, a baby born in NI to non-Irish or UK citizens whose parents own citizenship either doesn't allow or restricts jus sanguinis, parents refusing or just not bothering to formally apply for any nationality the child can receive etc. Even then, some born in NI may be entitled to automatic citizenship (though not Irish or British) of a country that doesn't recognise multiple citizenship and that trying to register British citizenship whilst already holding citizenship of another country has additional stringent checks in place that does not apply when citizenship is already granted at birth.

It's also worth remembering that since the GFA came into effect, Ireland itself has changed its rights to acquiring citizenship through jos soli after several incidents came to light of certain women deliberately coming to NI to give birth so their child could acquire an EU citizenship meaning both of them would be far harder to deport out of another EU country, as well as foreign nationals holding no Irish citizenship giving birth in the state and later being able to prevent themselves being deported, referencing a Supreme Court ruling from 1989 that forbade the deporting of a parent of an Irish citizen. This right was originally enshrined in the passing of the 19th amendment to the constitution that was tied to the rights of Irish citizenship stated in the GFA, and was later changed with the 27th amendment. Like it or not, immigration concerns are what drove the 27th amendment to pass after the loopholes of the idealism of the 19th amendment were being taken advantage of.

I'm not in agreement with you here for a few reasons. Firstly what the problem be in simply considering anyone born in NI as both a British and Irish citizen until such time as they confirm their preference?  That gets round the issue of statelessness although as shall be seen below I think that's a misnomer anyway.

Secondly the example you gave is an interesting one because a person born in NI is not automatically British unless one of their parents is British or is settled in the UK so in your example the child is arguably stateless until they are 10 or their parent becomes settled. So there is already a subset of persons born here who the UK can not and do not know what their citizenship is. So the idea of not knowing what someone is until they assert a citizenship right is not the major issue it's suggested to be.

Thirdly British law provides no extra support for those wishing to establish Irish citizenship and as you have mentioned Irish citizenship is now far harder to get than it was pre GFA partially because of the GFA.

All in all I am failing to see what the impact of the relevant clauses of the GFA are to Britain. I then come back to my original point which is why If there was no point to them are they contained within the GFA. What was the intent of including them?
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BennyCake

Another thing...

If Irish citizenship of those in the north isn't technically recognised, should James McClean not be playing for Norn Iron?

Milltown Row2

Quote from: BennyCake on October 15, 2019, 07:58:50 PM
Another thing...

If Irish citizenship of those in the north isn't technically recognised, should James McClean not be playing for Norn Iron?


f**k! If big Cas can be Irish then James should be also  ;)
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

David McKeown

Fionntamhnach

I think the point I go back to is, I think it was clearly the intention of the GFA to require of the UK some form of legislative change to domestic UK law to either protect or enhance the rights of those born in NI to claim Irish citizenship (if legally entitled), British citizenship or to have both, certainly something more than anyone who have been entitled to dual citizenship of the UK and another country (not Ireland) would have. I don't believe that what that change was to be is prescribed by the GFA but I do think it is clearly the intention that something should be done to give a practical effect to the wording of the GFA. I further think that we can both agree that nothing has been done domestically. Which in turn means that as the law stands the De Souza decision was correct.

I'm not trying to suggest what that change should be I am just trying to suggest that the GFA imposes an obligation on the UK to do something and that a failure to so do leaves the UK in breach of an international obligation created by the GFA.
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David McKeown

Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 16, 2019, 11:18:26 AM
Fair 'nuff. My point is that trying to legislate on how to accommodate such aspiration or obligation in the spirit of the GFA throws up potential issues concerning international diplomacy and citizenship beyond Irish-British relations, with the 19th Amendment being an example. At best, successive British governments may have felt that amendments to nationality legislation within the UK wasn't needed to meet the aims mentioned in the GFA. At worst, they were being deliberately or even mendaciously neglegent. Given current political shenanigans in Westminster, it would take a brave MP to try and introduce such measures to remedy this at this time, as I can't see the current government and home secretary doing so.

I think we are broadly in agreement then. Although I welcome Simon Conveys comments about raising the issue with the UK
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Franko

Quote from: David McKeown on October 16, 2019, 11:38:10 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 16, 2019, 11:18:26 AM
Fair 'nuff. My point is that trying to legislate on how to accommodate such aspiration or obligation in the spirit of the GFA throws up potential issues concerning international diplomacy and citizenship beyond Irish-British relations, with the 19th Amendment being an example. At best, successive British governments may have felt that amendments to nationality legislation within the UK wasn't needed to meet the aims mentioned in the GFA. At worst, they were being deliberately or even mendaciously neglegent. Given current political shenanigans in Westminster, it would take a brave MP to try and introduce such measures to remedy this at this time, as I can't see the current government and home secretary doing so.

I think we are broadly in agreement then. Although I welcome Simon Conveys comments about raising the issue with the UK

It would seem that one of the chief participants in the negotiations would concur with your thoughts David.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50067547

Main Street

Quote from: johnnycool on October 15, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on October 15, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quoterecognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?
It is puzzling that people thought the GFA changed anything re a NI person's birthright to be a dual citizen. This matter was discussed ad nauseum in the FIFA eligibility thread.
De Souza did not have even have a just legal basis for a challenge. The GFA did not change British or irish nationality law.

It is the Irish constitution (not British nationality law)  which gives most everybody born on the Island the automatic right to Irish  citizenship. It is the British nationality law which endows most everybody born in the 6 counties the right to be a british citizen. It is a legal babtism of British nationality. As long as a NI born resides in the UK,  that person resides as a British citizen by default unless the person resigns their Brit citizenship.  The GFA never attempted to change that basic legal concept of British nationality. I have commented many times that Nordie nationalist are British nationals  by default  and need to rinse themselves of that stain by following a due process. The GFA did not do that rinsing.

 

David McKeown

Quote from: Main Street on October 17, 2019, 12:48:45 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on October 15, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on October 15, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quoterecognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?
It is puzzling that people thought the GFA changed anything re a NI person's birthright to be a dual citizen. This matter was discussed ad nauseum in the FIFA eligibility thread.
De Souza did not have even have a just legal basis for a challenge. The GFA did not change British or irish nationality law.

It is the Irish constitution (not British nationality law)  which gives most everybody born on the Island the automatic right to Irish  citizenship. It is the British nationality law which endows most everybody born in the 6 counties the right to be a british citizen. It is a legal babtism of British nationality. As long as a NI born resides in the UK,  that person resides as a British citizen by default unless the person resigns their Brit citizenship.  The GFA never attempted to change that basic legal concept of British nationality. I have commented many times that Nordie nationalist are British nationals  by default  and need to rinse themselves of that stain by following a due process. The GFA did not do that rinsing.



Indeed but it still begs the question what was the intention of it?  It was clearly intended to do something but what that is I've no idea.
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Main Street

#41
Good news in that Emma de Souza has won a personal victory in her battle with the Bitish Gov,
https://www.thejournal.ie/emma-de-souza-northern-ireland-irish-british-immigration-5099038-May2020/

that British and Irish citizens born in the North will be treated as EU citizens for certain immigration purposes, meaning that the spouses of these people who are born outside the EU can apply for a residence permit to stay in the UK post-Brexit.
but there is a but.
these changes are time-limited, from August 24th until the end of the UK's post-Brexit transition period.


Why the time restriction?
I have said this before that the British nationality act only endows British nationality to NI born at birth.  British nationality is the default nationality at birth even if NI born also happen to be Irish citizens at birth, in effect dual nationals at birth.

From the British perspective, the GFA just recognises a right for a NI born to identify themselves as Irish only, but that person's default nationality is still British.
The GFA  does not say that the British state recognises all NI born to be dual nationals.
The British state is not compelled to uphold the rights that your irish citizenship endows.
as it has to  with your British nationality.

The Dual nationaity at birth is important riight of course  but as long as a Nordie doesn't spend the GBP 140 to give up their british nationality, their primary de facto nationality in the UK is their British nationality.


In simple terms, a NI born footballers british nationality allows him/her to play for the IFA
The same footballers Irish nationality allows them to play for the FAI.




BennyCake

So what happens when Brexit is sorted? Does Emma go back to being a Brit?

Baile Brigín 2

She did a media thing with Jim Wells, who during the week said if she wants to be Irish she can move south, and he said

  "There's no point quoting the Belfast Agreement to me, we've never accepted it".

Its 20focking20

BennyCake

And if there was a United Ireland in the morning, would Wells be an Irish citizen whether he liked it or not?