Would you be in favour of a second tier?

Started by sligoman2, June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

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Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
136 (52.7%)
No
104 (40.3%)
Undecided
18 (7%)

Total Members Voted: 258

BennyCake

HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

From the Bunker

Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

+1

High Fielder

#572
For last nights matches, Dublin were 1/100 with bookmakers. The handicap was 6 goals, which they covered easily. They are by far the most skewed odds you will see on a bookmakers website. I have tried hard but I'm unable to think of a sporting equivalent, in an organised tournament situation, where the odds would be so extreme. This is not even sport any more, and the GAA should be f**king ashamed

I think there comes a point in any sport where you are doing harm to yourself if you continue to play in a match you cannot win. We have gone well passed that point with some of these matches. If it was a club game, there'd by no time wasted in some places offering a walkover.

lenny

Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

I don't understand your logic at all. Clubs can progress through the ranks from junior to senior so the same can happen at county level. A few big guns will generally always be there but if there's a 2 up, 2 down system there's lots of room for progression.

themac_23

Quote from: BennyCake on May 25, 2019, 10:59:23 PM
Themac23, sure the league is effectively meaningless, as in nobody really is bothered if they win it or not. And if the provincial c'ship is a stand-alone Competition, it effectively becomes meaningless too.

Also, the team in the preliminary round. Do you think they'd seriously bust their balls 4 weeks running to win a meaningless Ulster? And kn**ker themselves for the main competition?

I understand where you're coming from with regards to teams not busting themselves for 4 weeks before a main competition but effectively that's where we are at the min anyway, the provincial championship is effectively just a safety net for the big counties, for example Mayo getting beaten last night I still fully expect to see them in the super 8s. But nobody can tell me they enjoyed that Antrim game, we had 13 behind the ball when 10pts down, was complete damaged limitation from the start, to me that's not football. Play teams at your own level that's how to progress. It's one issue that seems to totally divide, I know people who like myself are all for it and also people who are dead set against it but I think it is something needs really looked at

trailer

Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

trailer

I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.

Estimator

#577
Quote from: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?
Agreed.
Even if it was tiered, hammerings will still happen.

This century we’ve had 9pt, 8pt, 12pt, and 10pt victories in All-Ireland finals.

In the last 10yrs there have been victories in the Quarter Finals / Super 8 of 10pts, 22pts, 14pts, 18pts, 9pts, 10pts, 27pts, 8pts, 15pts, 19pts, 13pts, 18pts, 13pts, 8pts, 9pts, 13pts and 17pts

In the Semi-Finals there have been hammerings of 12pts, 9pts and 9pts.

If this board was around in the 1970’s / 80’s.  Some would be discussing whether or not to allow Ulster sides compete in the All-Ireland competition.  As an extension,  they would suggest that Leinster and Munster should compete for Sam, and Connacht and Ulster should compete in a second tier.

Even if we look at league standings - over the last 5 years the two teams that have finished bottom of Div 1 [teams that would be considered to be Top 8] have a grand total of 10 victories from 70 matches. Cork own 3 of those from the 2016 league.
Ulster League Champions 2009

BennyCake

Quote from: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?

Exactly.

Roscommon are top 9/10, and they clearly aren't good enough to compete in the top grade.

Esmarelda

I hope Limerick beat Cork next weekend so we can an opposite but equal reaction of, look little teams can beat big teams.

In all seriousness though, I thought that Aidan O'Rourke's proposal yesterday was good, despite it being complicated and, by his own admission, not taking every area of the sport into consideration. I think it would keep a lot of people happy.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0524/1051431-future-of-football-blueprint-for-a-3-tier-championship/

BennyCake

Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why it's bollocks.

Substandard

I would be very wary of a tiered system, but already the smaller counties get so little exposure.
Maybe if there was an open draw where win your first Tier 1 game, you get a home draw next day.  Lose, and you go into a neutral venue, which would be a home venue for a Tier 2 winner.  (I haven't done the maths here, so don't shoot if it ends up unworkable).
The winners of each play off (1 and 2) progress, the losers in Tier 1 go into a relegation semi-final.

The Top 2 in Tier 2 automatically qualify for Tier 1 next year.  The bottom 2 (losing relegation semi-finalists) Tier 1 teams relegated, and the winning semi-finalists play off against the losing semi-finalists from Tier 2.  Therefore, there could be potentially a 4 team swing in any given year, however unlikely that could be.
It's not perfect, I haven't allowed for New York or the provincials, but I strongly believe that there needs to be a realistic target for promotion to the top Tier for teams from behind.  If it's a case of only one, or even two up, then you are effectively cutting off a lot of counties for good, and there would be at least 12 counties with significant games, whether to win their Tiers, or stay in Tier 1.
It's just my tuppence worth, as I said, there's probably huge, and maybe unworkable, holes in it.

On the subject of exposure, maybe a Match Of The Day format with a decent amount of match highlights with minimal analysis to showcase the counties, and a separate program which could deal with more in-depth analysis.

trailer

Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why it's bollocks.

Works at club level.
Antrim would've been lucky to have had 500 supporters at the match yesterday. Yet they had a chance of winning an USFC and an AI. Shite teams have shite support, end of story.
Anyone who thinks things must go on this way because they always have, has no clue about GAA or sport in general. They are the enemy of the GAA and every Irish person who has ever lived.
Change is coming.

Maiden1

Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and there's no way back. It'll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. You'll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA won't care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why it's bollocks.

Works at club level.
Antrim would've been lucky to have had 500 supporters at the match yesterday. Yet they had a chance of winning an USFC and an AI. Shite teams have shite support, end of story.
Anyone who thinks things must go on this way because they always have, has no clue about GAA or sport in general. They are the enemy of the GAA and every Irish person who has ever lived.
Change is coming.
:o

Up there with Cromwell

There are no proofs, only opinions.

Farrandeelin

Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RTÉ bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.