Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

HowAreYeGettinOn

Quote from: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 10:53:15 AM
I would make sure that all members who acted in such ways and covered up such acts would be first brought to justice under civil law and then make sure that they were never a member of the GAA again or a member of ANY club again.

I would try and rebuild the club with sweeping changes in protocols and coaching set ups so that a level of trust could be built up between the club members and parents who undoubtedly would be very wary of letting their children near such a club again.

It might not work but at least i would try.

RM, your attitude is the one we all wish the church would adopt regarding these scandals. If there was a SERIOUS intent demonstrated by the church to deal with the scandals along the lines you've mentioned - not just apologies, which Diarmuid Martin himself admitted yesterday will never be adequate to heal survivors' pain - then I might go back to church myself, or even have some respect for the church. Right now I have none.

Yes, there are good priests, and all of this is desperately unfair on them. But they're not speaking up in this debate either. Where is the movement within the priesthood to rid the church of this corruption? If the 'good priests' don't start that, who will?

The church continue to show, not by their words but by their (in)action, that they have no intention of doing anything to change their ways. In their world, all of this is an irritating imposition on them.

theskull1

Quote from: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 11:53:51 AM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.


As long as we question rather than accept dogma then I think were all on the right path rossie (even though we're on two different one's)  ;)

Any talk you have with your priest/bishop will be all about them trying to quell the discussions regarding this sorry mess. You will get lots of soft words and admissions of shame and guilt, but they will trot out that language to everyone troubled soul who comes in the hope that it will help get things back to normal. Justice will not come into their thinking. The congregations are being played for fools

I wish you well on your journey....and always remember the dark side (athiesm) isn't as bad as you think  :)
It's a lot easier to sing karaoke than to sing opera

mylestheslasher

Quote from: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 11:53:51 AM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

I think ive already answered that.
I couldnt work with them if they were still allowed work and would expose everyone involved including the perpertrator as well as the people who covered it up.

I would then make sure they could never join my or any other club for life and then would try with the help of others rebuild the club structure so this wouldnt happen again.

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.

I see the point of the religioous trappings and faith in god  but do i denounce everything ive grown to believe because of the wrong of others and what they did in my and others like me name.

I am asking myself that queston at this point in time.

By the way myles and skull ye arnt helping the whole situation either as the more i read ye the more i wonder. ;D

Best of luck coming to a decision.

mylestheslasher

Quote from: winghalfun on November 27, 2009, 11:57:23 AM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

I'm sure the people who did the actual acts will be prosecuted, but what about those that covered it up. They are EQUALLY guilty but will face no penalty. The law needs to be changed in this regard. Only the church can deal with them now and there is little hope of that.

orangeman

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: winghalfun on November 27, 2009, 11:57:23 AM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

I'm sure the people who did the actual acts will be prosecuted, but what about those that covered it up. They are EQUALLY guilty but will face no penalty. The law needs to be changed in this regard. Only the church can deal with them now and there is little hope of that.



Do you remember this being rammed down your throat ? Penalty will be waiting for them at those gates !



"I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do"





Jim_Murphy_74

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 11:07:56 AM
Regarding the GAA club analogy. If the abusers were allowed to stay and work within the club would you still stay apart of it?

Or if the club constitution stated that the reputation of the club and it's executive was more important than the safety of children?

Or if the club constitution outlined how to deal with criminals outside of the civil law?

Or if the club constitution was regarded (at least in practice) to over-ride civil law?

/Jim.

pintsofguinness

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:17:53 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:09:33 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

Wtf? Going without will not turn you in to a pervert! There are ordinary lay people who go without too, there's no correlation between celibacy and raping children!

That's just a lazy suggestion as to why or how the Catholic Church gathered up so many perverts!
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

redhugh

Rossie mad - in an earlier post you claim that the vast majority on the board here are better people than you.This is simply not true.You're  certainly no worse than anyone on here, in fact I'd say, you're probably a better person than many of us.
Personally I have a very strong faith in God.I was brought up a catholic and had a strong belief in the catholic church for most of my life.I have travelled a fair bit, and always in times of need sought and found sanctuary in the church,nomatter where in the world.I tried to live my life according to the churches teachings as much as I could.But when it began to dawn on me what this church that had been such a big part of my life had been up to,it made me feel sick - seriously.

You are right in saying that forgivness is a big part of what we believe in.I for one, feel that if I'm honest I cannot forgive so many lives being destroyed over and over,for such a long period of time,while the supposed men of God kept it all quiet.
I know that there is a lot of good in the church,and that a lot of good work is done.I know many good priests who are horified by all that has gone on in this church that they have devoted their lives to.I just feel that I can no longer be a part of this church.Good luck trying to find your answer - I did'nt come by mine easily.

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 05:27:20 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:17:53 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:09:33 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

Wtf? Going without will not turn you in to a pervert! There are ordinary lay people who go without too, there's no correlation between celibacy and raping children!

That's just a lazy suggestion as to why or how the Catholic Church gathered up so many perverts!

It's not just going without, it's enforced abstinence, or supposed to be, and I'd reckon there were more than a few that took that vow under emotional duress. And I haven't said that that's the sole reason, but it is part of the mix IMO. If it isn't, why don't the non-Catholic churches have the same problem to the same degree (they all have their perverts, but not to the extent that the Catholic Church does)?

Can you answer me that?

Of course, like I also said, it became a bolthole for perverts too, with the complicity of the State. Shameful.



Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

stew

Quote from: theskull1 on November 27, 2009, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 11:53:51 AM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.


As long as we question rather than accept dogma then I think were all on the right path rossie (even though we're on two different one's)  ;)

Any talk you have with your priest/bishop will be all about them trying to quell the discussions regarding this sorry mess. You will get lots of soft words and admissions of shame and guilt, but they will trot out that language to everyone troubled soul who comes in the hope that it will help get things back to normal. Justice will not come into their thinking. The congregations are being played for fools

I wish you well on your journey....and always remember the dark side (athiesm) isn't as bad as you think  :)

Athiesm is as bad as some people think, worse.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

muppet

Quote from: winghalfun on November 27, 2009, 11:57:23 AM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

This is the crux of the problem in Ireland. The perpetrators and everyone who facilitated them or interfered with any official investigation into this should all be prosecuted. But this won't happen.

Firstly the fact that we are reading about this as yet another investigation report tells me that it will be filed under the same limbo status as the tribunals. Nothing will come out of it until it is a police investigation.

Secondly 180 odd priests were investigated and only 11 were named. This investigation doesn't include anything after 2004 so the mantra of 'sub judice' is a tonne of shite as the other 170 (I know some are dead) are hardly all before the courts for the last 5 years are they?

Thirdly there have been 130 odd complaints since so this has not been stopped, if anything it has gotten worse but the Church are against any other Diocese being investigated. So far there have been two, Ferns in 2005 which was described as 'the worst Diocese in the world' and now in 2009 Dublin which is worse that the worst Diocese in the world. They should all be investigated, by the Gárdaí, now!

Finally, the Vatican has behaved disgracefully. They are beneath contempt as far as I am concerned on one hand preaching the Gospel while on the other hiding behind diplomatic procedures to protect pedophiles.

I would advocate the immediate breaking off of Diplomatic Relations with the Vatican and the seizing of all their assets, until they furnish the DPP with every document they hold concerning any Irish victims of child abuse. The CAB legislation might allow it and if not introduce some that does.
MWWSI 2017

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: theskull1 on November 27, 2009, 12:17:43 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 11:53:51 AM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.


As long as we question rather than accept dogma then I think were all on the right path rossie (even though we're on two different one's)  ;)

Any talk you have with your priest/bishop will be all about them trying to quell the discussions regarding this sorry mess. You will get lots of soft words and admissions of shame and guilt, but they will trot out that language to everyone troubled soul who comes in the hope that it will help get things back to normal. Justice will not come into their thinking. The congregations are being played for fools

I wish you well on your journey....and always remember the dark side (athiesm) isn't as bad as you think  :)
All these high faluting ideas you have and you think you are so right in them and you can't even spell what you believe or don't believe in  :D
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Pangurban

If i hear one more Bishop,Priest, or apologists of any ilk, say they are on a learning curve, i will go demented. Did they not know the difference between right and wrong, what is it they are learning. I still support the Church, and recognise that without the laity there is no Church. When the Laity demand the removal of all personell involved in covering up these horrific crimes, and force changes in structure and organisation which prevent decent priests and people from voicing concerns and being heard, then and only then will meaningful and genuine change be effected..I pray this will happen soon

ardmhachaabu

Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

muppet

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 09:14:02 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.

The 4 Arch-Bishops of Dublin were the Church for that Arch-Diocese.
MWWSI 2017