Clerical abuse!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.

Whether you are meaning it or not it sounds to me that you are using celibacy as an excuse ( or an explaination). You may have a point but its more like a theory unless you can back it up woth some stats.

We are all responsible for our own individual actions ludermor, so it can never be an excuse. That doesn't mean, however, that some rational analysis can't be applied. That always leaves you open to accusations of being an apologist, but then we were all psychopathic sociopathic dysfunctional republicans in the worst days of the recent troubles.

Tabloid analysis is easy.

[mylestheslasher]

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

Maybe it isn't your intention myles but it upsets me that others are insinuating that by not disassociating yourself from the Church in the wake of this means you are somehow condoning or at least excusing or ignoring what's gone on.

Well if you're going to use the GAA in this context, could I also liken parishes to clubs - the Catholic Church to me is more than a hierarchy - it's a community thing, much like the GAA club. 
I had a fantastic experience with those involved in the church while growing up, and since.  I don't want to see my parish community disintegrate.  The nuns and priests who had a bearing on my life were nothing but inspiring in their Christian values. 
And that to me is the Catholic Church - if any of those clergy that I had contact with on a regular basis were involved in any cover-up or directly in abuse, then I'd be disgusted on a personal level (and am with those I've never had any contact with), but I also won't forget how much comfort their colleagues brought me after a bereavement, the investment they put into teaching Christian behaviours and the joy and friendships they encouraged through involvement in parish life. 

What's being uncovered now is sad and the perpitrators (in whatever sense) should be held accountable, hopefully beginning with the replacement of those guilty parties still involved in the Church.  But on a daily basis, this affair will not change my memories or practices with the Church, and I hope that people don't try to make me feel guilty for it.

Rois -  I am not trying to upset you, genuinely asking the question. Neither am I trying to make you feel guilty. But the fact remains that the church is rotten to the core right from the top. That is now an established fact in my opinion. The good people that influenced you would be better off to take their christian values outside the church now and work from there or they risk getting sucked down with it. You are right too, the church is like a hierarchy or maybe even a monarchy. A monarchy that allowed unspeakable acts to happen. Even if there are good people within, I could not bring myself to give a penny to that organisation ever again for anything. I could never allow myself to be apart of any group that had an affiliation to such acts. I don't know if you have kids but I do and when you hear these things you think of your own kids and what they could have been subjected too. It makes me mad and i am not afraid to admit that.

[HowAreYeGettinOn]

But the fact remains that the church is rotten to the core right from the top. That is now an established fact in my opinion.

Well said.

Miriam O'Callaghan asked an interesting question of Diarmuid Martin last night - it was along the lines of 'If you are so humbled / ashamed / troubled by these revelations, why don't you use your influence to do some good and ask some of the bishops named in the report, who are now serving in other dioceses in the country, to resign?'

Martin, despite his obvious decent intentions (and he is a quantum leap forward from his predecessors in that regard), gave the old reliable 'bishops should look into their own hearts and ask themselves the question...'-type answer. In other words, he ain't gonna sack no-one.

Like Marie Collins, the abuse survivor said, nothing has really changed. The Catholic Church see this whole thing not as a mortifying scandal that necessitates a long (i.e. decades) period of contrition, humility and repentance on their behalf, but as state busybodies interfering in their business. They just want it all to go away so that they can get back to 'normal'.

There will be no great purge of offenders, no putting in place of transparent safety measures, no real effort to change on the Church's behalf. Just apologies like Martin's yesterday. They're just keeping their heads down, hoping that these reports stop soon. They haven't a notion of doing anything about their internal 'culture'.

[Declan]

In other words, he ain't gonna sack no-one.

He can't sack anyone

[orangeman]

The contempt in which the commission was held by the Vatican and the Papal Nuncio would lend weight to the argument that things haven't really changed that much :


Vatican 'snubbed Ireland church abuse inquiry' 

The handling of allegations of child sex abuse in Dublin was investigated
The inquiry into sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland has disclosed that the Vatican ignored formal requests for information.

The inquiry asked for details of reports on abuse sent to the Vatican by the Dublin archdiocese in 2006.

The Vatican did not reply but told the Irish Foreign Affairs department the request "had not gone through appropriate diplomatic channels".
The inquiry condemned church leaders for covering-up abuse for decades.

The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, which was published on Thursday, covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

The commission said it was independent of the government and therefore did not regard it as appropriate to use diplomatic channels when seeking information.

A request for information from the Papal Nuncio also was ignored. In February 2007, the commission wrote to the Dublin-based Papal Nuncio asking him to forward all relevant documents in his possession.

It also requested that he confirm whether he had any such documents but the Papal Nuncio did not reply.

Ashamed

Earlier this year, the commission again failed to receive a reply after sending the Papal Nuncio extracts from its draft report which referred to him and his office, as it was required to do.

The Vatican told The Irish Times it "was a matter for the local church involved".

A senior Vatican spokesman said diplomatic practice required that outside requests made to the governance of the Vatican pass through diplomatic channels, in this case the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin and the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in Rome.

[longrunsthefox]

What are you, a psychologist?    These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

First time I've ever been called an 'aul wan'     I ain't in my 70s or 80s... or even 50s! I don't now anyone was forced to go into the priesthood although I know of a woman whose son left the church and she felt such shame apparently said, "It would be better if he was dead." For someone who is such an expert on abuse you really personalise your messages.
.

[rossie mad]

So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

You have completely missed the point. But at least you replied unlike most of the other devout catholics on the board. I presume that you are a christian first and foremost. That is believe in Jesus Christ, son of god sent to earth to save us. As a Christain you believe in the bible as the word of god. That is my starting point.

All a church is, is a vehicle for you to express the above beliefs is it not? There are many christian organised churches and there are many christians that live their lives by the bible without the need for any church.

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

A very simple analogy - I love GAA and am a member of a club. If that club were shown to be harbouring child abusers I would leave that club without hesitation. I might join another club or I might not but it doesn't stop me still loving the GAA does it?

I am also an active member of a GAA club and if this sort thing was happening and lets say covered up by a chairman or secretary or even an club executive i would be genuinely horrified but would i leave that club?
I most definitly would not.For two reasons
1 I absolutely love that club and would not ever dream of leaving it.
2 Why should i leave a club that is my birth right to be a part of and has been ingrained in my psyche from an early age because of a paedophile and a group of people who covered it up.I didnt do any thing wrong.

I would make sure that all memebers who acted in such ways and covered up such acts would be first brought to justice under civil law and then make sure that they were never a member of the GAA again or a member of ANY club again.

I would try and rebuild the club with sweeping changes in protocols and coaching set ups so that a level of trust could be built up between the club members and parents who undoubtedly would be very wary of letting their children near such a club again.

It might not work but at least i would try.

Im not saying im going to make these changes to the catholic church but what i will do is talk to my parish preist and my parish council to make sure that in the future something like this wont happen in my parish because the protocols and systems are in place to prevent such a horrenendous act.

On another point i spent hours thinking to myself questioning my faith after watching prime time.
Forgiveness is a big value in any christian religion and i know i cant forgive these animals for the hurt they have caused to the church and if it was me or my child i kmow i wouldnt be able to forgive them.

Believe it or believe not but i am hurting badly because i am genuinely questioning my faith since revelations of this was revealed months ago and this new report has only sown fresh seeds of doubt in my mind.

[mylestheslasher]

So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

You have completely missed the point. But at least you replied unlike most of the other devout catholics on the board. I presume that you are a christian first and foremost. That is believe in Jesus Christ, son of god sent to earth to save us. As a Christain you believe in the bible as the word of god. That is my starting point.

All a church is, is a vehicle for you to express the above beliefs is it not? There are many christian organised churches and there are many christians that live their lives by the bible without the need for any church.

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

A very simple analogy - I love GAA and am a member of a club. If that club were shown to be harbouring child abusers I would leave that club without hesitation. I might join another club or I might not but it doesn't stop me still loving the GAA does it?

I am also an active member of a GAA club and if this sort thing was happening and lets say covered up by a chairman or secretary or even an club executive i would be genuinely horrified but would i leave that club?
I most definitly would not.For two reasons
1 I absolutely love that club and would not ever dream of leaving it.
2 Why should i leave a club that is my birth right to be a part of and has been ingrained in my psyche from an early age because of a paedophile and a group of people who covered it up.I didnt do any thing wrong.

I would make sure that all memebers who acted in such ways and covered up such acts would be first brought to justice under civil law and then make sure that they were never a member of the GAA again or a member of ANY club again.

I would try and rebuild the club with sweeping changes in protocols and coaching set ups so that a level of trust could be built up between the club members and parents who undoubtedly would be very wary of letting their children near such a club again.

It might not work but at least i would try.

Im not saying im going to make these changes to the catholic church but what i will do is talk to my parish preist and my parish council to make sure that in the future something like this wont happen in my parish because the protocols and systems are in place to prevent such a horrenendous act.

On another point i spent hours thinking to myself questioning my faith after watching prime time.
Forgiveness is a big value in any christian religion and i know i cant forgive these animals for the hurt they have caused to the church and if it was me or my child i kmow i wouldnt be able to forgive them.

Believe it or believe not but i am hurting badly because i am genuinely questioning my faith since revelations of this was revealed months ago and this new report has only sown fresh seeds of doubt in my mind.

If I may say this, is your "faith" not to God something that you can keep without being a member of anything. What you have to the catholic church is "allegiance" in my opinion. It is that I think you should be questioning.

Regarding the GAA club analogy. If the abusers were allowed to stay and work within the club would you still stay apart of it?

[rossie mad]

Well i dont see how they could be let stay but no im afraid if my club let them stay i would leave the club but do everything in my power to get rid of them from outside.

But in fairness thats a very long winded point because as well you know it wouldnt happen however the church has done this in the past and maybe they are still at it i dont know but if they are i condemn the church wholeheartedly.

I dont have an allegiance to the catholic church i have a belief in the catholic church which has been rocked to say the least.

My faith is in god our lord jesus and the Virgin Mary.

[theskull1]

Well i dont see how they could be let stay but no im afraid if my club let them stay i would leave the club but do everything in my power to get rid of them from outside.

But in fairness thats a very long winded point because as well you know it wouldnt happen however the church has done this in the past and maybe they are still at it i dont know but if they are i condemn the church wholeheartedly.

I dont have an allegiance to the catholic church i have a belief in the catholic church which has been rocked to say the least.

My faith is in god our lord jesus and the Virgin Mary.

You say it wouldn't happen in regards to an abuser being allowed to stay within a club rossie and you'd be right on that (you, me and the rest of us live in the real world  ). But what if you found out that there was a culture of covering up these abuses in your club and that you then found out the truth about what so many influencial clubmen did to keep it hush hush rather than exposing the perputrator and protecting the vunerable within your community. Could you work with these individuals in your club knowing that and take leadership from such people? I think you know the answer to that question.

As others have said ...you don't need the trappings of a religion to have faith in a god

[rossie mad]

i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate

I think ive already answered that.
I couldnt work with them if they were still allowed work and would expose everyone involved including the perpertrator as well as the people who covered it up.

I would then make sure they could never join my or any other club for life and then would try with the help of others rebuild the club structure so this wouldnt happen again.

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.

I see the point of the religioous trappings and faith in god  but do i denounce everything ive grown to believe because of the wrong of others and what they did in my and others like me name.

I am asking myself that queston at this point in time.

By the way myles and skull ye arnt helping the whole situation either as the more i read ye the more i wonder.

[HowAreYeGettinOn]

In other words, he ain't gonna sack no-one.

He can't sack anyone

Fair enough, but he could ask them to resign, which given the amount of public pressure that would then follow would surely amount to the same thing (at least I'd hope it would).

[winghalfun]

Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

[johnneycool]

Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

Well according to Dermot Ahern they will, so we'll have to wait on that happening but I won't be holding my breath. I'd say most of the perpetrators will have to answer for their crimes at the pearly gates.

[orangeman]

Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

Well according to Dermot Ahern they will, so we'll have to wait on that happening but I won't be holding my breath. I'd say most of the perpetrators will have to answer for their crimes at the pearly gates.

[/b]


What Pearly gates ??    More fiction ?