The Horse racing thread

[BennyHarp]

Frankel walks into a bar. BARMAN: Why the long face? FRANKEL: My job doesn't challenge me. Glass of champagne, please.

[SLIGONIAN]

Im far from a expert in horse racing but i need to ask this question, i dont care how stupid it will make me look. Frankel is 13 wins from 13 races, he is classed as greatest horse of all time. Some of these races had only 4 horses racing, and most of the races were not big events to win, only 13 races, how many races would horses normally race in a lifetime and why not race in bigger races, i know different horses race different lengths but frankel never seemed to up any of the big guns?

[thewobbler]

Frankel has won 11 group one races in a row.

While you get the odd exception, group one races involve the best horses available at that distance/age group.

Every time he has ran, he has done so against the highest quality of horses, and he has routinely shat all over each and every one of them. It's not his fault that no significant challenger has appeared, but the other side of this is that because he's a freak, there is no chance of a serious competitor appearing.

Some people might write about him needing to win at 1.5 miles to prove he is the greatest. But they're the type of people who will tell you that Usain Bolt isn't that good. Truth is, if Bolt concentrated on 400m, he'd walk it too. Similarly, if Frankel concentrated on longer distances, he'd win. But you have to concentrate your efforts somewhere.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Some people might write about him needing to win at 1.5 miles to prove he is the greatest. But they're the type of people who will tell you that Usain Bolt isn't that good. Truth is, if Bolt concentrated on 400m, he'd walk it too. Similarly, if Frankel concentrated on longer distances, he'd win. But you have to concentrate your efforts somewhere.

I'd be one of those people!

Frankel is indeed a complete freak and I would be someone who would have had doubts about him before. The first time I became a believer was after the Sussex last year when he slammed a genuine top class miler in Canford Cliffs. Excelebration has never let the form down either and has won Group 1s in France and Germany when away from Frankel. Even going back to his 2yo days he beat horses like Nathaniel, Dream Ahead, Treasure Beach and Colour Vision who have since won a King George, an Eclipse, a July Cup, a Haydock Sprint Cup, an Irish Derby and an Ascot Gold Cup between them.

It's a pity though that he's only going up in trip now because there was nothing more left too achieve at a mile after last year. The pattern for 10f horses is excellent in Europe (Prix Ganet, Tatts Gold Cup, Prince of Wales, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Irish Champion Stakes) and it would have allowed greater flexibility to either go up or down in trip had he taken in some of those earlier races instead of the Lockinge and the Queen Anne. I don't think it was the most stellar field of 10f horses yesterday but it was a decent Group 1 all the same. St Nick was a champion 2yo and has won two Coronation Cups and a Breeders Cup Turf. He's better over 12f but he was beaten all ends up yesterday and was never getting back at the great horse. Farrh has quite good Group 1 form over 10f after being unlucky in running when close up behind So You Think at Ascot and then just touched off by Nathaniel in the Eclipse at Sandown.

If Frankel does go on to Ascot as planned then he'll probably be coming up against a similar field. The Arc would be his greatest challenge and would be a fitting race to retire after. I think it would be a shame if the greatest horse in the world didn't run in the world's greatest race. The 12f trip would be an unknown but he wasn't stopping at the finish yesterday and his full brother stays the distance. It would be asking the horse to step out of his comfort zone but that is something that all the great horses were asked to do. The Arc was the pinnacle for both Sea The Stars and Dancing Brave and I've no doubt it would be a similar story for Frankel if he ran. I suspect the fear of losing the unbeaten record comes into play but it shoudn't. Not retiring undefeated has not tarnished the legacy of great horses like the two mentioned above or Nijinsky (who was beaten by a head in the Arc) or Brigadier Gerard.

I just think a win in the Arc would elevate the horse's standing even further. A hack canter around Ascot would be a great lap of honour for the Frankel but it won't add anything to his glittering CV.

[homeofhurling8]

I see Johnny Murtagh has received his marching orders from the Aga Khan, its becoming a bit of a habit at this stage ! Still, i suppose he left him no choice following the result of the Leger trial on Saturday, its not like Johnny has made much of an attempt to disguise who is actually training Tinklers horses, its been an open secret in horse racing circles for quite a while now.

[Donnellys Hollow]

I see Johnny Murtagh has received his marching orders from the Aga Khan, its becoming a bit of a habit at this stage ! Still, i suppose he left him no choice following the result of the Leger trial on Saturday, its not like Johnny has made much of an attempt to disguise who is actually training Tinklers horses, its been an open secret in horse racing circles for quite a while now.

Murtagh will do well with Tommy Carmody/Andrew Tinkler. They have a very tidy operation together down at Pollardstown. They'll have a few going jumping too so I wonder will Murtagh take out a national hunt license again like he did to ride Golden Cross. Maybe his age might be a factor in that decision.

Shane Foley looks a worthy successor given his success this season on the Aga's horses for Mick Halford.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Quite sad to have heard the news of John Oaksey's passing today. I grew up like many more watching him and Brough Scott on Channel 4. He did such great work for the Injured Jockey's Fund and racing will be a lesser place for his loss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-178iVld-Jk

[GAA_Talk]

Did anyone here the commentator on ATR after Camelot got beat? sounded like he lost the mortgage on that race the way he was criticizing JP. disappointing result, unless you backed Encke obviously. 

[Donnellys Hollow]

It was a very poor ride and I'm sure Joseph would ride the race a lot differently if he could get another chance at it. People forget that he's only 19 but I doubt he'll be much be able to ride for much longer on the flat given his size. It's a pity he has missed the chance to make racing history.

[barelegs]

Just as a casual observation JPOB seems to be riding overweight a lot over the last couple of weeks. It's always been an sporadic issue but it seems to be a more regular occurence lately. I don't think we'll see him back next season. It'll be interesting to see what the future holds for him. I'm not convinced he'll go jumping (as a jockey anyway.)

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

It was a very poor ride and I'm sure Joseph would ride the race a lot differently if he could get another chance at it. People forget that he's only 19 but I doubt he'll be much be able to ride for much longer on the flat given his size. It's a pity he has missed the chance to make racing history.

I agree that his performances should be judged in the context of his age but if he's going to get eh leg up on the best horses consistently, he'll be judged against the best jockeys. Today he fell short and for all that Aidan O'Brien has achieved, his best chance chance to equal Vincent's greatest feat may have gone.

And what a finish to the Irish Leger! DH, what do you think the future holds for Dawn Approach?

[homeofhurling8]

In fairness i wouldn't blame Joe, the horse didn't pick up, simple as, the boys were as bullish as they have ever been but these things happen, joe thought his speed would pick everything else up,it cost me a small fortune but i dont blame Joe or anyone else at ballydoyle,horse racing isn't an exact science.

[Aaron Boone]

Agree. Horse wasn't there a furlOng out. Young Joe had him pretty much ready to go and...he didn't.

[Donnellys Hollow]

I don't know lads. I think the best horse lost that race. O'Brien has ridden some great races this year but he had a mare today. He went for a run up the inside that was never really going to materialise with the pacemaker falling away. He never got his horse rolling before getting him out in the clear then. Barzalona had been rowing away on his horse for nearly a furlong and had built up a head of steam. Joseph went from just niggling along to an all out drive in the space of a few strides. That's not something you'd see him normally do and it's generally a sign of a jockey who has gone from ultra confident to panicking in the blink of an eye. It's like changing from second gear straight into fifth in a car.

As for Dawn Approach, plenty to like about him. Lovely professional way of running and looks like he'll get the mile well. If the Sheikh leaves him with Bolger then he's a serious Guineas horse but if he's off to Dubai after the Dewhurst than you can put a line through him for Newmarket. There haven't been many 2yos worth getting excited about yet. Mars is the talking horse but we haven't seen him since his maiden. Hughesie gave Toronado a smashing ride in the Champagne Stakes today but I doubt he's top class. I liked Noseda's Dalakhani colt that won the Solario at Sandown but I wouldn't say he's extraordinary either.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Great card down at Listowel tomorrow. Some big talking horses like Minsk, Pique Sous and Teelin Star all on retrieval missions after disappointing last time out. The Kerry National looks a very good quality handicap chase for this time of year.