‘Guns and Roses’ a new Left alternative in Irish politics?

[Eoghan Mag]

Another one that I'd introduce is that if a multinational company, wanted to invest here they would only be allowed in if an Irish company was at the same time granted the same level of grants and incentives given out. For years this has not been a level playing pitch. Outsiders who are always, as history has shown, going to eventually pull out are always given things quicker than homegrown talent. 

[muppet]

Universal health care. Spare me the usual excuses of not having a reason.

Hey I'll do that too.

Free money and a 1 day working week for all workers.

Now how about a coherent policy that wouldn't bankrupt us immediately.

Universal Healthcare paid for by selling our Natural Gas, instead of giving it away for free, might run for example.

In case you haven't noticed muppet, we are bankrupt. Why would it not be coherent? How about an increase on tax and an end to health insurance?

We are not quite bankrupt, yet.

If we raise taxes now to pay for a universal health service we will default on our debt.

We will then have either the IMF or the EU running the country.

They will increase taxes to pay our debtors and will close hospitals and schools.

Populist policies are what got us into this mess. We don't need more.

[Eoghan Mag]

Muppet if there is one thing to learn from the current shower it is how to put policy into practise. They string out the policy as long as is possible and then only dress it up for effect prior to an election. Much like they do here before a local election - all of a sudden 3 weeks before the vote all the roads are being resurfaced. A policy to shut down private hospitals would be strung out over a number of years. The doctors in them would be offered junior doctor positions in the public ones as positions became open.

[muppet]

Muppet if there is one thing to learn from the current shower it is how to put policy into practise. They string out the policy as long as is possible and then only dress it up for effect prior to an election. Much like they do here before a local election - all of a sudden 3 weeks before the vote all the roads are being resurfaced. A policy to shut down private hospitals would be strung out over a number of years. The doctors in them would be offered junior doctor positions in the public ones as positions became open.

Eoghan my post wasn't in response to yours.

I think Harney's co-location is treason. I am (shaking with rage just thinking about it) opposed to it. It disgusts me.

[Eoghan Mag]

Sorry Muppet I didn't know I wasn't allowed to respond to the question!!! No offence intended. 

In all fairness there are a lot of things policy wise that people could suggest here that are different to what is going on with the current government.

[Zapatista]

We are not quite bankrupt, yet.

If we raise taxes now to pay for a universal health service we will default on our debt.

We will then have either the IMF or the EU running the country.

They will increase taxes to pay our debtors and will close hospitals and schools.

Populist policies are what got us into this mess. We don't need more.

I think you are looking for a Government to step in and fix the recession? This isn't possible. We are at a stage where we can't compete. Our reputation is in tatters. We are a toxic investment.

During the boom money was squandered and wasted on feel goods. Popular politics, criminality and unchallenged capitalism got us into this mess. The right wing thinking in Ireland went no futher than the individual capitalising on eachother with no thought given to future investment or infrastructure. This was government failure but it is also what is expected from right wing Government and made possible by a reight wing main oppostition. You maximise your profits. Rather than use the money to build a better future and an an attractive home for investment we concentrated on lining pockets and getting cash rich but socially poor. A right wing or left wing Government cannot speed up the recovery but a leftwing Government would put in place measures where we can limit our exposure to such a recession.  

left wing thinking and it is what is sorely missing from Ireland during this recession.

[muppet]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I diagree that a jump from the right to the left is what we need. Someone said out of the frying pan into the fire and I would agree. Back to the centre and away rom the extremes would be more up my street.

I do think there are areas where left wing thinking should prevail and in fairness you mentioned one, the Health service and the 2nd I would add is education. I think cutbacks in those areas is misguided. They may need streamlining certainly so we (taxpayer) get value for money but the spend shouldn't be reduced.

However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.

For most of the euros I earn get 45c into my hand and of that 9.4c goes back to the Government.

We will get more taxes from the current centre-right Government so proposals to put even more on top of the are not palatable. Not for me anyway.

[muppet]

Sorry Muppet I didn't know I wasn't allowed to respond to the question!!! No offence intended. 

In all fairness there are a lot of things policy wise that people could suggest here that are different to what is going on with the current government.

I wasn't offended I just thought you had picked me up wrong with regard to your suggestion of closing of private hospitals.

I have no problem with any individual spending their own money to provide a service. My problem is with the Government giving taxpayers land free to create a 2 tiered health service:

one for those who can afford the new very high cost health insurance:

and

one dumbed down poorly funded public service for the rest:

[Declan]

Some thoughts slighlty modified for a wider audience from an American professor which pretty much tallies with my thinking

Which Capitalism Will It Be?

by Benjamin R. Barber

Can the market system finally be made to serve us? Or will we continue to serve it?

George W. Bush argued that the crisis is "not a failure of the free-market system, and the answer is not to try to reinvent that system." But while it is going too far to declare that capitalism is dead, the philanthropist George Soros is right when he says that "there is something fundamentally wrong" with market theory.
The issue is not the death of capitalism but what kind of capitalism - standing in which relationship to culture, to democracy and to life?
It is hard to discern any movement toward a wholesale rethinking of the dominant role of the market in our society.
No one is questioning the impulse to rehabilitate the consumer market as the driver of western commerce. Economists and politicians across the spectrum continue to insist that the challenge lies in revving up inert demand.
For in an economy that has become dependent on consumerism to the tune of 70 percent of GDP, shoppers who won't shop and consumers who don't consume spell disaster. Yet it is precisely in confronting the paradox of consumerism that the struggle for capitalism's soul needs to be waged.
The crisis in global capitalism demands a revolution in spirit - fundamental change in attitudes and behavior. Reform cannot merely rush parents and kids back into the mall; it must encourage them to shop less, to save rather than spend.
Penalize carbon use by taxing gas so that it's $4 a gallon regardless of market price, curbing gas guzzlers and promoting efficient public transportation.
And how about giving producers incentives to target real needs, even where the needy are short of cash, rather than to manufacture faux needs for the wealthy because they've got the cash?
Or better yet, take in earnest that insincere MasterCard ad, and consider all the things money can't buy (most things!). Change some habits and restore the balance between body and spirit.
It's time, finally, for a Cabinet-level arts and humanities post to foster creative thinking within government as well as throughout the country. Time for serious education money to teach the young the joys and powers of imagination, creativity and culture, as doers and spectators rather than consumers.
Recreation and physical activity call for parks and biking paths rather than multiplexes and malls. Speaking of the multiplex, why has the new communications technology been left almost entirely to commerce? Its architecture is democratic, and its networking potential is deeply social. Yet for the most part, it has been put to private and commercial rather than educational and cultural uses. Its democratic and artistic possibilities need to be elaborated, even subsidized.
Of course, much of what is required cannot be leveraged by government policy alone, or by a stimulus package and new regulations over the securities and banking markets. A cultural ethos is at stake.
For far too long our primary institutions - from education and advertising to politics and entertainment - have prized consumerism above everything else, even at the price of infantilizing society. If spirit is to have a chance, they must join the revolution.
The costs of such a transformation will be steep, since they are likely to prolong the recession. Capitalists will be asked to create new markets rather than exploit and abuse old ones; to simultaneously jump-start investments and inventions that create jobs and help generate those new consumers who will buy the useful and necessary things capitalists make once they start addressing real needs (try purifying tainted water in the Third World rather than bottling tap water in the First!).
The good news is, people are already spending less, earning before buying (using those old-fashioned layaway plans) and feeling relieved at the shopping quasi-moratorium. Suddenly debit cards are the preferred plastic. Parental "gatekeepers" are rebelling against marketers who treat their 4-year-olds as consumers-to-be. Adults are questioning brand identities and the infantilization of their tastes. They are out in front of the politicians, who still seem addicted to credit as a cure-all for the economic crisis.
There are epic moments in history, often catalyzed by catastrophe, that permit fundamental cultural change. The Civil War not only brought an end to slavery but knit together a wounded country, opened the West and spurred capitalist investment in ways that created the modern American nation. The Great Depression legitimized a radical expansion of democratic interventionism; but more important, it made Americans aware of how crucial equality and social justice (buried in capitalism's first century) were to America's survival as a democracy.
Today we find ourselves in another such seminal moment.
Will we use it to rethink the meaning of capitalism and the relationship between our material bodies and the spirited psyches they are meant to serve? Between the single-minded commercialism that we have allowed to dominate us, and the pluralism, heterogeneity and spiritedness that constitute our professed national character?
But we will need leadership to turn the economic disaster into a cultural and democratic opportunity; to make service as important as selfishness (what about a national service program, universal and mandatory, linked to education?); to make the needs of the spirit as worthy of respect as those of the body (assist the arts and don't chase religion out of the public square just because we want it out of City Hall); to make equality as important as individual opportunity ("equal opportunity" talk has become a way to avoid confronting deep structural inequality); to make prudence and modesty values no less commendable than speculation and hubris (saving is not just good economic policy; it's a beneficent frame of mind).
Such values are neither conservative nor liberal but are at once cosmopolitan and deeply human. Their restoration could inaugurate a quiet revolution. The struggle for the soul of capitalism is, then, a struggle between the world's economic body and its civic soul; a struggle to put capitalism in its proper place, where it serves our nature and needs rather than manipulating and fabricating whims and wants.
Saving capitalism means a revolution of the spirit. Are we up to it?

[The GAA]

So can we take it from the responses then that no one here apart from Zapatista would support a 'leftist' government? I guess we're still a nation of (post-industrial) peasants. We've a long way to fall yet I suspect... 

I'd be very interested in leftist option at the polls. unfortuantely this country doesn't have a credible one given the state the labour party is in

[Donagh]

However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.

But how much of that is wasted muppet?

Some measures I would take would involve:

1. Slashing bureaucracy in government departments as well as the pay for politicians and public servants - for the national good. No more trips on private jet or special limos, so if a little old fashioned patriotism and pride in working for your country isn't enough of a perk then you can go elsewhere.

2. Nationalise the banks and all national resources including gas, water, minerals, telecoms, fisheries and electricity distribution. If the EU don't like it they can feck off as well.

3. I'd hit the property developers for the money they should have been contributing to infrastructure development whilst the building boom was happening. If they don't have the money clean them out of every asset and piece of land they have.

4. Invest in infrastructure and renewable energy. We must have one the the 'windy-ist' peices of real estate on the face of the Earth, so I've have wind farms everywhere generating electricity and flog the surplus to the Brits through the interconnector. This and wave-power are areas we should become world leaders in.

5. Tax the feck out of car owners and second homes, making the later pretty much unaffordable. Invest massively in public transportation and abolish all those bungalows in Donegal.

6. Nationalise the universities (most of them are massive money making operations) and pour resources into research in certain sectors such as engineering (see point 4), medicine, technology and education in an effort to make us world leaders in some of these areas - something we could market abroad. I'd have enough doctors and engineers trained so that we can again export our expertise e.g. use the Cuban model of sending trainee doctors to work in developing countries overseas, which creates goodwill, knowledge transfer and cash.

8. Decentralise power into Civil Forums to administer local governance

7. Nationalise the Churches and their property, but also give them an active role the Civic Forum, education and health-care (if they are willing, if not they can feck off as well)

9. Go in hard against the big criminals and drug dealers. This would involve taking their citizenship and property and sending them across the water (in whatever direction they want). Same goes for the tax exiles - if they don't pay up they can stay away permanently.

I'm not saying a left-leaning government would take these measures but I outline them just to give an indication on the level of pain needed to turn the country around. And I haven't even went near the farmers yet...

[Zapatista]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I diagree that a jump from the right to the left is what we need. Someone said out of the frying pan into the fire and I would agree. Back to the centre and away rom the extremes would be more up my street.

I do think there are areas where left wing thinking should prevail and in fairness you mentioned one, the Health service and the 2nd I would add is education. I think cutbacks in those areas is misguided. They may need streamlining certainly so we (taxpayer) get value for money but the spend shouldn't be reduced.

However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.

For most of the euros I earn get 45c into my hand and of that 9.4c goes back to the Government.

We will get more taxes from the current centre-right Government so proposals to put even more on top of the are not palatable. Not for me anyway.

True that we all have opinions. I am not suggesting a jump from right to left. The current system is a right system and has grown over the space of about 20 years. It is currently the only one that exists here. In order to change that you must work within the current system. It's not a case of out with the old and in with the new it is a gradual change of thinking and attitude towards what the wealth of a Nation is. All the tax details you post might not change greatly with a left Government and a left Government (I think Labour seemedhappy enough with the tax system) wouldn't be any better or faster at fixing the current crisis no matter who they tax. What they would do is get the country back to that middle ground you are talking about.

There aren't enough extreme or even strong socialists in Ireland to bring Ireland to a socialist country there are enough left of centre to bring it to a place were we can counter the mistakes made by the majority right. There is nothing to be afraid of. There are very few loonies in Irish politics and the Irish population but there are plenty of people that will capitalise on the myth that there are.

[muppet]

However to pay for the above a realistic counter-policy needs to be put forward. Simply puting up taxes for the middle classes isn't the answer. Most of us pay 42% tax + 1% levy + 5% PRSI. If you are in the private sector you should be putting money into a pension (I pay 7%) giving a total of 55% and then I pay 21% vat on almost everything I buy.

But how much of that is wasted muppet?

Way way too much.

Some measures I would take would involve:

1. Slashing bureaucracy in government departments as well as the pay for politicians and public servants - for the national good. No more trips on private jet or special limos, so if a little old fashioned patriotism and pride in working for your country isn't enough of a perk then you can go elsewhere.

I am amzed that the Government jet isn't the first thing people should be in the street about. It cost €164,000 for the recent futile trip to Dell beause they used the Gulfstream.

2. Nationalise the banks and all national resources including gas, water, minerals, telecoms, fisheries and electricity distribution. If the EU don't like it they can feck off as well.

The banks looks like happening soon, the gas in the ground should be ours anyway (treasonous decision to give it to Shell free IMHO), the utilities I have no problem with but if it is just for ideological reason I'm not interested. I'm sick of ideology.

3. I'd hit the property developers for the money they should have been contributing to infrastructure development whilst the building boom was happening. If they don't have the money clean them out of every asset and piece of land they have.

I have no sympathy for the developers. Anyone I know who has met any of these men use the same word to describe them, 'ignorant'. Funny that because other successful types attract different descriptions but the developers, always 'ignorant'.

4. Invest in infrastructure and renewable energy. We must have one the the 'windy-ist' peices of real estate on the face of the Earth, so I've have wind farms everywhere generating electricity and flog the surplus to the Brits through the interconnector. This and wave-power are areas we should become world leaders in.

Agree 100% but you would have to create incentives to do it that you mightn't like such as tax relief etc. Also maybe it's time to look at nuclear, when oil prices went through the roof last summer the French were sitting pretty due to their nuclear power stations.

5. Tax the feck out of car owners and second homes, making the later pretty much unaffordable. Invest massively in public transportation and abolish all those bungalows in Donegal.

Not sure why you want to attack car owners. What would make more sense would be to scrap car tax and load it on fuel meaning it would be a lot cheaper to drive less and use public transport. Second homes not so sure about but incomes from property could see a change in how it is viewed. I think it should be seen more as a business so corporate tax on any income but no mortgage relief to deter amateur speculators (like me!) in a boom.

6. Nationalise the universities (most of them are massive money making operations) and pour resources into research in certain sectors such as engineering (see point 4), medicine, technology and education in an effort to make us world leaders in some of these areas - something we could market abroad. I'd have enough doctors and engineers trained so that we can again export our expertise e.g. use the Cuban model of sending trainee doctors to work in developing countries overseas, which creates goodwill, knowledge transfer and cash.

No problem here.

8. Decentralise power into Civil Forums to administer local governance

You mean county councils? IMHO they have done more to fuel the property boom and bust than anyone. We need another way alright but local Government in a nation of chancers is not the way.

7. Nationalise the Churches and their property, but also give them an active role the Civic Forum, education and health-care (if they are willing, if not they can feck off as well)

It used to belong to us anyway.

9. Go in hard against the big criminals and drug dealers. This would involve taking their citizenship and property and sending them across the water (in whatever direction they want). Same goes for the tax exiles - if they don't pay up they can stay away permanently.

No problem with the headline but I would like to see how this would be done exactly.

I'm not saying a left-leaning government would take these measures but I outline them just to give an indication on the level of pain needed to turn the country around. And I haven't even went near the farmers yet...

My concern with a traditional left leaning government is that they will dramatically raise taxes and completely cripple the economy with even greater job losses and welfare bills.

[Billys Boots]

3. I'd hit the property developers for the money they should have been contributing to infrastructure development whilst the building boom was happening. If they don't have the money clean them out of every asset and piece of land they have.

Well, for a start, the banks we now own should be seizing the land-banks owned by the developers as recompense for their debts to us, as shareholders.  This would effectively eliminate the 'dog-in-the-manger' class of developers from the nation, and should allow us, as a nation to reset (where we like) the fundamental value of housing.

I like Declan's article too, some good ideas there, amongst the hand-wringing.  

The emergence of microfinancing (in the third world), and its uneffected progress through the credit crunch, would tend to give credence to the theory that the way forward is to build new markets based on serving those who are poor, rather than those who are not.

[Pangurban]

The old Right and Left divisions do not have the same relevance in an increasingly globalised world economy. The choice facing Ireland today is between the European social model of society and American individualism. With 70% of our laws emanating from Europe and our dependence on American investment, with the resultant need to please them, our scope for independent decision making is very limited. One decision we could make to prevent the mistakes of the past from being repeated , would be to introduce Capital gains Tax on profits from House sales. This would prevent the runaway crazy prices we have witnessed during the boom, and keep prices of the average home within the reach of the average working family.