America`s Gun Culture

[muppet]

It is only fair to point out that case was from 6 years ago.....but it is still fascinating to see how poor people are fined for misdemeanours and then become trapped into a ruinous cycle of debt and jail.

https://www.thenation.com/article/town-turned-poverty-prison-sentence/

Dana Burdette is a petite white woman with auburn hair and, at 37, a face that looks a decade younger. She has three kids and, like many other Harpersville residents, has worked most of her life in low-wage jobs.

In 2007, she was getting by running errands and taking care of a few older people in the area. On Thanksgiving night, one asked her to drive him to a relative's house for the holiday because he had been drinking.

Near the intersection in Harpersville, an officer pulled Burdette over and ticketed her for driving without a license—a common occurrence in Alabama, where an unpaid ticket can lead to an automatic license suspension. Although the car belonged to the man Burdette was driving, she was also ticketed for an expired tag, no proof of insurance, and possession of drug paraphernalia after the officer found a pipe under the seat. "The car doesn't belong to me, it's not registered to me, none of that had nothing to do with me," Burdette said. "But here I am, in all this trouble."

By January 2007, Harpersville's crowded court had gone from convening once a month to every other week. Those who arrived early could claim a seat among the dozens of chairs in front of the dais; the rest stood as they waited for Judge Larry Ward to call their case.

Ward was the longest-serving judge in Alabama's 274 municipal courts, which are often homespun affairs consisting of a folding table and chairs set up in the town hall. Appointed by the local government, municipal judges are required to have a license to practice law in the state, but they don't need to have much legal experience. Though Ward earned a law degree from the University of Alabama, he never practiced. Instead, he worked as a bond salesman for Morgan Keegan & Company, often selling bonds to the same small towns over whose courts he presided. At one time, he served as a judge in thirteen different municipal courts in central Alabama. He ruled in Harpersville's court for more than a decade.

It was Ward whom Burdette faced that day in Harpersville's town hall. "He made us sign this paper saying we waived legal counsel at the time," she recalled. Burdette didn't think much of it: "I didn't know you could get a lawyer for a traffic ticket and didn't think I needed one—it was a traffic ticket."

Her fines for the three charges added up to $2,922, court papers show. Ward sentenced her—and others who said they couldn't pay their full fines that day—to probation. Once a means of allowing convicted offenders to stay out of jail on the condition of good behavior, probation had now become a court-sanctioned tool for debt collection.

Burdette was sent to the mayor's office, where representatives from JCS processed the new probationers. She signed the paperwork and, several days later, reported to the JCS office in nearby Childersburg, where she paid her probation officer $100. Of that, $45 went toward her fine, $10 toward a one-time "start-up fee," and the last $45 to JCS as a monthly fee for service.

Burdette didn't think she was guilty of all the charges against her, but probation seemed easier than fighting them. She was already struggling to keep working and to take care of her kids and her sick parents; she didn't need one more thing on her plate. By February 2008, however, she was in arrears, prompting JCS to send her a letter stating that if she didn't pay $400 immediately, her probation could be revoked and she could go to jail. Following that letter, at a hearing that Burdette did not attend—she said she never received notification by mail—Judge Ward revoked her probation and signed a warrant for her arrest.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

NYT piece on contemporary debtor's prisons

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/opinion/sunday/is-it-a-crime-to-be-poor.html?_r=0

[The Iceman]

You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.

I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?

I'll freely and ashamedly admit that I have some element of racism now since moving here and living here.  I felt the same though when I lived in Crystal Palace for a year. 

[muppet]

You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.

I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?

I'll freely and ashamedly admit that I have some element of racism now since moving here and living here.  I felt the same though when I lived in Crystal Palace for a year.

Fair play, you are the first I have ever heard admit it.

However, it wouldn't take much to make a hypocrite out of me as well. For example if someone tested my tolerance of travellers to the limit, it mightn't reach the standards I would like.

[ballinaman]

@stephengreaves
These armed guys are not police or military, just local guys exercising the second amendment. #tvnews #pmwf5   

[muppet]

They remind me of Orangemen on the 12th.

But with better dress sense.

[seafoid]

You're absolutely embarrassing yourself here, as if your attempt to drag the girlfriend into it because of the way she looks wasn't bad enough.

I questioned the girlfriend's intent. She is making a holy show of her grief when the camera is on and is so distraught she was able to get her hair done, teeth whitened and a makeover...
I think it's all being played up and she is adding to it when she is supposed to be a grieving girlfriend....

@ muppet
I agree with your deductions but I add that there is much more to it - it isn't cut and dry.  There is a real divide here - some say manufactured by politicians - either way its real and getting worse.

There sure is a real divide.

I am guessing by US standards your view would be seen by whites as moderate and quite normal, but I would also guess by non-US standards your views are seen as outrageous which might explain the reaction you get here.

Like I said, each individual case has its own circumstances, and thus is a statistical anomaly from which we shouldn't draw conclusions, but the overall trend about black deaths is undeniable. For example you defend the behaviour of the cop religiously but criticise the female passenger's behaviour. One kills someone, but is white, the other kills no one, but is black. See how this looks?



Anyway, I would like to know about the debt-cycle issue. I have only read about it recently and am completely shocked at the way this is handled. I am certain it applies to poor people of any colour but it seems Dickensian in nature and is hard to believe this goes on in the 21st Century, in the world's richest country. Do you know anything about it?

Muppet the US is very backward when it comes to social justice/worker protection. Paid holidays and pay for days taken off sick are taken for grated in Europe but absent in a lot of US workplaces. It is even worse now with the gig economy 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBRrCY5uhWY

[Declan]

Two teenagers playing Pokemon Go in the middle of the night have been shot at after being mistaken for burglars.

A 19-year-old man and his 16-year-old friend were playing the game in a car in Florida at around 1.30am when an armed man walked out of his house and opened fire on the vehicle.

Immediately before the shooting, one of the players asked the other: "Did you catch him?"

According to Flagler County Sheriff's Office, the other replied: "Yeah, did you?"

As soon as they heard gunshots, the teenagers drove off.

It was only in the morning that one of their mothers discovered bullet holes in the rear tyre, hubcap and fender. She immediately reported the shooting to the sheriff's office.

According to a statement from Flagler County Sheriff's Office, the homeowner "was awakened by a loud noise coming from outside of his home. He got up from bed and looked outside and noticed a small white car with its brake lights on in the roadway in front of his home."

The resident thought he heard someone say "did you get anything?"

The report claims he "stepped in front of the vehicle and ordered it not to move. The homeowner stated the vehicle accelerated toward him causing him to flee the roadway.

"Because he believed the vehicle was attempting to strike him, he discharged his handgun several times at the vehicle."

After speaking to the teenagers the following morning, it became clear that they were merely playing Pokemon Go.

Flagler County Sheriff's Office has confirmed the "investigation is continuing".

The incident follows a number of Pokemon Go-related injuries. One "hunter" crashed his car into a tree, while two others fell off a cliff in the hunt for creatures

[muppet]

If those quotes are correct, the shooter's story is going to need some work. 😃

[AZOffaly]

Hard to blame a man for shooting Pokemon Go players in fairness.

That white 'militia' picture above is scary. That's where I'd be afraid this is going to go. Forget stupid/scared/racist police shooting innocent or guilty black men, when it escalates it will become in some peoples' minds black v white. Not black v white establishment, or black v cops, or even poor v rich. It will become nigger v cracker, us v them, black v white. And when that happens, and you get idiots like the above, it's only a matter of time before white vigilantes start taking shots at black vigilantes, and then all holy hell will break loose, and will make the civil right riots of the 60s look like Diarmuid Connolly v James Dolan.

[seafoid]

The fact that vets were responsible for 2 doses of cop killing is very scary. Vets have a 90% likelihood of divorce on return and most live in poverty . They have worse PTSD and brain trauma than rugby players .

[J70]

Don't worry, people will thank them for their service wherever they go!

[Muck Savage]

BLM have been running an anti-cop campaign for the past two years. They may not have been directly involved in the cop shootings in the past week but they have encouraged the hate against the police which has resulted in 8 police deaths.
Have they marched about this in the past week? Have they marched about the 25 other Black men shot dead in the past week by other black men? Surly their lives also matter, even the black police officer if they are only going to march for Black lives.
The hate for the police is getting out of hand and even though BLM are not the flame that is doing the damage they are the fan that is stoking it.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right and that BLM is getting out of hand in their rhetoric. That their tactics need to be reevaluated. Let's put that aside for now.

The issue, the reason for their existence, is the treatment of black people by the justice system i.e. the state, in the US. The unarmed men being killed because the police are afraid/prejudiced and overreact. The historical lack of accountability for law enforcement when it happens. The disparate sentences they receive for the same crimes when compared to white people. The harrassment by law enforcement.

Just because you don't like their rhetoric or their tactics doesn't mean that the issues they are concerned with are illegitimate.

And on the black on black crime - do you seriously think that all these black people don't give a bollocks about what is happening in their own neighbourhoods? That there are no movements out there among black communities trying to address the poverty and social issues which drive the high crime rates in their areas?

Some of there rhetoric talks about Killing or Dead cops, how does that help? They are increasing tension between sides and increasing hatred towards the cops, that is not the way to fix problems. 8 cops dead, more injured and even more shot at across the country is not going address it.

Lets say you are a cop for a day, not any way racist, and someone starts shooting at you while you protect a group of protesters protesting against you. Would you be OK with this? Going into areas where people hate you because of your skin color.
Yes there are a few bad apples in the police force but these are very few. Taking it out on the rest of them is not the way to get people behind you.

Does the right really give a shit about black poverty and crime rates in inner cities, or are their "concerns" just a red herring to try to delegitimize the issues on which BLM is based?

You're going to have to go find someone in the Right to answer that question.

I believe it's wrong to see police shooting innocent Black men but protesters shouting about "Killing" "Shooting" cops is not the way to fix this. Why are they being shot? Is it really racism? Is it improper training? Is it education? Dialog needs to start to sort this out, I don't see too many meetings or conferences to try address the issue being publicized.

[J70]

No argument from me that they should never be calling for violence against cops. I've said so on several occasions on this thread.

As for why, I'd say it's all those reasons: fear on account of prejudice; unwillingness to give the benefit of the doubt on account of prejudice;  poor training; poor selection of candidates... depends on person/situation.

And on measures to address these problems, a number of police forces have already begun to implement reforms and outreach, with some success. Those include Dallas.

[muppet]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38136658

Ohio State University this time......

Hopefully only the gunman is dead.