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He has done great things with Armagh but his stint with Galway have only met with endless failure. Galway have let him down big time for sure but we must not forget the great things he has done with proper teams.

No... legacy will always remain with Armagh much like JOM with Galway

I would say he's in a similar position there to Loughnane. Loughnane was previously perceived as a legend , or near it, and his rep has been somewhat tarnished by his galway stint.

JK has a bit of time with Galway just yet though.  Maybe early yet. They have a young enough team in a lot of places and are missing meehan who would walk on any team in ireland.

Quote from: imtommygunn on July 10, 2010, 08:28:53 PM
I would say he's in a similar position there to Loughnane. Loughnane was previously perceived as a legend , or near it, and his rep has been somewhat tarnished by his galway stint.

JK has a bit of time with Galway just yet though.  Maybe early yet. They have a young enough team in a lot of places and are missing meehan who would walk on any team in ireland.

Young enough, yes. But are they good enough?. Current evidence suggests not. Before they play another Championship match, Padraig Joyce will be another year older. How much longer can he carry Galway football on his back?

I actually believe the immediate future is brighter for Mayo than Galway.

Quote from: Shrewdness on July 10, 2010, 09:18:41 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on July 10, 2010, 08:28:53 PM
I would say he's in a similar position there to Loughnane. Loughnane was previously perceived as a legend , or near it, and his rep has been somewhat tarnished by his galway stint.

JK has a bit of time with Galway just yet though.  Maybe early yet. They have a young enough team in a lot of places and are missing meehan who would walk on any team in ireland.

Young enough, yes. But are they good enough?. Current evidence suggests not. Before they play another Championship match, Padraig Joyce will be another year older. How much longer can he carry Galway football on his back?

I actually believe the immediate future is brighter for Mayo than Galway.

Thought this was his last year? Maybe the way they bowed out he might want to keep going but he can't do it all himself.

I don't think Joe Kernan and Galway football are at all compatible. Kernan won his All Ireland with a certain type of player playing a particularly negative style of football. I don't think Galway have the type of players needed to play that game and its not their their natural style of play anyway and is unlikely to ever be.

Cosmo, i heard several people make that very point in the immediate aftermath of Kernan's appointment, and maybe the chickens have come home to roost now ::)

Quote from: Cosmo Kramer on July 10, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
I don't think Joe Kernan and Galway football are at all compatible. Kernan won his All Ireland with a certain type of player playing a particularly negative style of football. I don't think Galway have the type of players needed to play that game and its not their their natural style of play anyway and is unlikely to ever be.

That's not really true. Armagh's All Ireland winning campaign preceded much of the negativity that seeped through in subsequent years.

Quote from: Cosmo Kramer on July 10, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
I don't think Joe Kernan and Galway football are at all compatible. Kernan won his All Ireland with a certain type of player playing a particularly negative style of football. I don't think Galway have the type of players needed to play that game and its not their their natural style of play anyway and is unlikely to ever be.

galway don't have the players. Simple as.

Yeah, I don't think Armagh were particularly negative at the height of their powers. Anyway, surely if Joe is a decent manager he can adapt his style of play to suit the players he has and if the players are any good they add an extra string or two to their bow?

In fairness to Joe Kernan I think you have to judge him after next year. He was always rowing upstream once Michael Meehan did his knee ligaments against Kerry in the league. A fully fit Meehan and Nicky Joyce and Galway would probably have ended up winning Connacht and Kernan's first year would have been a modest success. As it is they lost two games to injury time points so it's a thin line between a pat on the back and a root up the hole. That said a Connacht title would only have been papering over the cracks. The team is not near strong enough in certain positions and PJ and Meehan can only carry them so far. Ultimately the players have to take their share of the blame. They were in winning positions against both Sligo and Wexford and blew both games in the final minutes. 

Kernan though has the figure of Kevin Walsh looming over him now as well and unless he improves things next year the clamour for Walsh to come home will be undeniable.

What legacy? Everyone in Armagh knows Paul grimley was the brains behind the operation and Joe was the motivator and if the truth be told i reckon Joe cost Armagh at least one other all ireland if not two. Galway might not win anything under Joe but they'll sure as hell be out a few Euro before it's all over

The fact is, Galways just aren't all that good at the minute.  Plus if Kernan was going to stamp his way of doing things on it - it was always going to be a two year process minimum

Quote from: illdecide on July 10, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
What legacy? Everyone in Armagh knows Paul grimley was the brains behind the operation and Joe was the motivator and if the truth be told i reckon Joe cost Armagh at least one other all ireland if not two. Galway might not win anything under Joe but they'll sure as hell be out a few Euro before it's all over

So when things went well it was all down to Grimley, but when things went pear shaped it was all Kernan's fault? Hmmm...

Joe's light has been fading a few years now. Didn't and Don't think he's the right man for the Galway job. Galways biggest problem (no more than their neighbours Mayo) is that they are over rated in relation to winning Sam. True Galway have slain the AI Beast in 2001, but they have been year in year out since given to much credit for playing 'nice' football and losing. Sligo have emerged from the shadows of Galway and Mayo this year, and rightly no one is talking of AI's. Why not? Anyway, I'm afraid the only thing 'Big Joe' will leave Galway with is a swelled pocket.

there's no doubting what he has achieved in the game but his record since 2005 has been very poor.

Quote from: AFS on July 10, 2010, 10:18:42 PM

Quote from: illdecide on July 10, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
What legacy? Everyone in Armagh knows Paul grimley was the brains behind the operation and Joe was the motivator and if the truth be told i reckon Joe cost Armagh at least one other all ireland if not two. Galway might not win anything under Joe but they'll sure as hell be out a few Euro before it's all over

So when things went well it was all down to Grimley, but when things went pear shaped it was all Kernan's fault? Hmmm...

Joe made bad decisions in 2004 and 2005 if memory serves me correctly it was Joe that deided not to play Oisin against Fermanagh. Then in 2005 in the 3rd game against Tyrone that season he brough McGeeney off. To say those decisions didn't cost us is way off the mark.

Don't get me wrong, I still have respect for Kernan but there is always going to be these mistakes that are going to live with Armagh forever. We had our best ever team between the years 2001 and 2006 and a manager who most would consider one of the best in the country and because of this he shouldn't have made those mistakes. Once fair enough but twice!

Would also like to add Grimley has been consistent with the teams he has been with. Such as Armagh, Kildare and Monaghan.

If given the choice to have Grimley of Kernan at Armagh - who would you pick?

Joe Kernan, McGeeney and Banty have all been carried by Grimley - simple fact. The results speak for themselves.

Who's to blame for Cavan then??? 

While undoutbedly an astute man the Grimley myth continues to grow. Easier to be a Number 2 with no ultimate responsibility - take credit for the good, deflect the bad, make the snowballs for someone else to fire.

He cant be judged on his own merits until he takes a County team as the Number 1; anyone think there's a reason why he's continued to avoid doing so for so long??

I'm certainly not a fan of Joe kernan, but your all forgetting his fantastic success at club level with not a grimley in sight. plain truth.. galway strike me as a lazy shower apart from p.joyce, when kernan tried to put his formula in place they resisted or they just couldn't perform simple tasks like defending in numbers. mccloskey had them in great shape the fault lies with the players they still think its the mid 80's where teams go out man mark and if your good enough you'll win. what armagh achieved is that they stuck to a plan that meant that no individual had to face the pete the great or the Joe brollys or the gooches they played as a team, and while  other teams had better individuals, the sum of the talents of the armagh players under this system was greater. i believe that it was infact the two Brian's that did the work, but they ran out of road, also Joes phenomenal success at club level cast a shadow over their tenure. i dont think anyone will think Joes legacy is tarnished by galways failure. people will know that he brings a 'management roadshow' with him, a sort of makeover show. i think he'd have done better in a county where the expectations are not as high as galways

Quote from: bennydorano on July 11, 2010, 01:22:01 PM
Who's to blame for Cavan then??? 

While undoutbedly an astute man the Grimley myth continues to grow. Easier to be a Number 2 with no ultimate responsibility - take credit for the good, deflect the bad, make the snowballs for someone else to fire.

He cant be judged on his own merits until he takes a County team as the Number 1; anyone think there's a reason why he's continued to avoid doing so for so long??

Paul Grimley wasn't there that long was he? And no offence to Cavan but I dont think any manager in the country could sort them out at the moment. Historically they are the best team in Ulster but now they are one of the worst.

And so im not completely biased in Grimley's favour, with Armagh he inherited a great team which was built by the 2 Brians.

Quote from: illdecide on July 10, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
What legacy? Everyone in Armagh knows Paul grimley was the brains behind the operation and Joe was the motivator and if the truth be told i reckon Joe cost Armagh at least one other all ireland if not two.

By that logic, Armagh lost out on more All Irelands because they weren't motivated. If that's the case, you have to blame the players just as much as Kernan.

perhaps he ran out of things to throw into the shower :D

I love all these clowns who say Grimley was the brains behind the Armagh success and Joe was just a face.

What a load of rubbish.
Big Joe was the man with his head on the block and Grimley was an outstanding 2nd in command.

To say he was the main man is nonsense. He had his chance at the No.1 spot with Cavan and look where they went! Surely if he was the man they say he'd have done something with them?

Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??
McGeeney, a new voice, new training, taking on the Kildare team alone with some motivation would have had the same effect year one and Monaghan aren't some new bunch of youngsters either, they're a hardened team.
He's not been a huge success with DCU either has he?

Grimley is a very, very good coach, but to take credit from Joe is very biased and unfair.


It's been a shocking start for Joe in Galway and God know's he needs time, but it'll take a while longer to destroy his legacy ... 

Its hard to fly like an Eagle when your working with Turkeys!

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??

Make that 2 championship wins.
But I'd agree that he hasn't had that much work to do with Monaghan. He's not exactly starting from scratch.

Quote from: Maguire01 on July 11, 2010, 02:54:22 PM

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??

Make that 2 championship wins.
But I'd agree that he hasn't had that much work to do with Monaghan. He's not exactly starting from scratch.

Disagree Grimley has added 50% to monaghan

Quote from: Maguire01 on July 11, 2010, 02:54:22 PM

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??

Make that 2 championship wins.
But I'd agree that he hasn't had that much work to do with Monaghan. He's not exactly starting from scratch.

Sorry *2nd one hardly counts! ha ha!

I think that he's a great 2nd in Command, but to say he was the man behind Armagh's success is short sighted.
Obviously a few people on here with hidden agendas.


(Just noticed he's picked his teams well too.... Cavan, DCU, Kildare, Clontibret, Bank of Banty, none of whom are struggling for a few bob)

Quote from: INDIANA on July 11, 2010, 02:58:03 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on July 11, 2010, 02:54:22 PM

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??

Make that 2 championship wins.
But I'd agree that he hasn't had that much work to do with Monaghan. He's not exactly starting from scratch.

Disagree Grimley has added 50% to monaghan

They are 50% improved now? Well the AI is theirs then!! 
;D

How in God's name after one proper USFC match can you make that statement?

Banty himself has gotten them to Ulster finals and to within a whisker of Kerry on his own before ... this is not a bad Monaghan team.

Seems like only one man with an agenda to me Konica

I've no agenda, just balancing the argument and defending the man.
I just can't understand this sudden turn for every man rushing sticking the boot in Kernan now he's down.

You think Big Joe was the reason Armagh lost All Irelands and Grimley was the reason behind Armaghs success?

Haven't a clue.

Attempting to destroy Grimley's credability seems like a strange way to defend Joe mor

CROSSMAGLEN COUNTS FOR NOTHING??? :o

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
I love all these clowns who say Grimley was the brains behind the Armagh success and Joe was just a face.

What a load of rubbish.
Big Joe was the man with his head on the block and Grimley was an outstanding 2nd in command.

To say he was the main man is nonsense. He had his chance at the No.1 spot with Cavan and look where they went! Surely if he was the man they say he'd have done something with them?

Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??
McGeeney, a new voice, new training, taking on the Kildare team alone with some motivation would have had the same effect year one and Monaghan aren't some new bunch of youngsters either, they're a hardened team.
He's not been a huge success with DCU either has he?

Grimley is a very, very good coach, but to take credit from Joe is very biased and unfair.


It's been a shocking start for Joe in Galway and God know's he needs time, but it'll take a while longer to destroy his legacy ...

They were both made to look good because they inherited a team that was built by the 2 brians. Kernan and Grimley added the finishing touches to the team. Like I said, if you could have Grimley or Kernan as manager who would you have?

Quote from: DuffleKing on July 11, 2010, 03:17:27 PM

Haven't a clue.

Attempting to destroy Grimley's credability seems like a strange way to defend Joe mor

Nothing of the sort - I think and I've said repeatedly he's a wonderful number 2 - and he will improve Monaghan too this year. In fact I think they can take Tyrone and largely because of his input - but that's different from walking into a team like Cross and taking them from 'bottom' to top.

Quote from: Armaghgeddon on July 11, 2010, 03:26:17 PM

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:45:03 PM
I love all these clowns who say Grimley was the brains behind the Armagh success and Joe was just a face.

What a load of rubbish.
Big Joe was the man with his head on the block and Grimley was an outstanding 2nd in command.

To say he was the main man is nonsense. He had his chance at the No.1 spot with Cavan and look where they went! Surely if he was the man they say he'd have done something with them?

Someone said Grimley has had success everywhere he's gone! A strawberry season with Kildare and one Championship win with Monaghan??
McGeeney, a new voice, new training, taking on the Kildare team alone with some motivation would have had the same effect year one and Monaghan aren't some new bunch of youngsters either, they're a hardened team.
He's not been a huge success with DCU either has he?

Grimley is a very, very good coach, but to take credit from Joe is very biased and unfair.


It's been a shocking start for Joe in Galway and God know's he needs time, but it'll take a while longer to destroy his legacy ...

They were both made to look good because they inherited a team that was built by the 2 brians. Kernan and Grimley added the finishing touches to the team. Like I said, if you could have Grimley or Kernan as manager who would you have?

That's a very fair and valid point, often forgotten.

Personally I'd have Joe as Manager.
I think as an organiser and head it would be Joe and trust he could (as he's done before) bring in the best men for the various selecting and training roles - which is part of the role of manager.

Quote from: The Konica on July 11, 2010, 02:58:30 PM
(Just noticed he's picked his teams well too.... Cavan, DCU, Kildare, Clontibret, Bank of Banty, none of whom are struggling for a few bob)

Odd to infer that Grimley is a money grabber as a response to questions over Joe's capabilities.
Is Joe in Galway for the good of his health?

maybe he saw cavan were no good. the answer is no, big joe got the thumbs up from the galway county board. todays irish star

as above. joes ok the players weren't good enough

This thread makes interesting reading today. I thought Grimley was carrying McGeeney?

Quote from: illdecide on July 10, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
What legacy? Everyone in Armagh knows Paul grimley was the brains behind the operation and Joe was the motivator and if the truth be told i reckon Joe cost Armagh at least one other all ireland if not two. Galway might not win anything under Joe but they'll sure as hell be out a few Euro before it's all over

+1 - WHAT LEGACY are we talking about?

Quote from: mrgaa1 on July 24, 2010, 08:01:49 PM

Quote from: illdecide on July 10, 2010, 09:56:54 PM
What legacy? Everyone in Armagh knows Paul grimley was the brains behind the operation and Joe was the motivator and if the truth be told i reckon Joe cost Armagh at least one other all ireland if not two. Galway might not win anything under Joe but they'll sure as hell be out a few Euro before it's all over

+1 - WHAT LEGACY are we talking about?

Was Paul Grimley 'the brains behind' Monaghan the last couple of weeks? Perhaps he's only the brains behind winning teams?

The only people who worry about legacies are those who couldn't even dream of having the attributes to create them.

I've always been a wee bit saddened by the way people in Armagh over the past few years have been inclined to a have a bit of a go at Joe. Albeit that it never descended to the pillioring wee Pete took in Down but distasteful all the same.

seems big joe is in the picture for the royals manager job. good luck to him

Quote from: lawnseed on October 25, 2010, 10:41:17 PM
seems big joe is in the picture for the royals manager job. good luck to him

Good luck to him surely.  taking over a up & coming team.

Will he be flying there too??

Legacy ??????   One all ireland title !!  Yer avin a larf.

Yeah, but football was only invented in 2002 !!

Quote from: fearglasmor on October 26, 2010, 09:41:10 PM
Legacy ??????   One all ireland title !!  Yer avin a larf.

Did he not win a few all irelands at Crossmaglen? Surely creating one of greatest club sides ever to play the game, then to win the all Ireland at his first attempt with a team who had never won it before has created a little bit of a legacy for the man? But then again, part time glory hunting supporters who dust down their scarves every summer and shout the loudest (like Mike Sheehy with his comment above - as i think you'll find Joe had won 3 all-irelands by 2002) probably don't even realise  that club football exists.

I think most managers are only as good as the squad they have in front of them.
When Big Joe took over in 2002 he had a great squad of hungry players who had already been to the well several times and had built up the hunger for a big drive again.
I think most people would agree he did put the finishing touches to a good side and dragged them over the line and I suppose made them believe they could beat Kerry among other Big teams

He brought a new level of professionalism to that squad and dare I be so cheeky to say made them believe they were better than they really were. For a number of years from 2002-2007 Armagh's biggest strength in my eyes was their self belief and inner strength that they were the best team in Ireland. A lot of this probably came from McNulty and McGeeney and their emphasis on positive thinking all the time.
The look on their faces in 2003 when Tyrone beat them was one of shock that they actually had lost.
I think they were never allowed to even contemplate what to do if things were going wrong.
A lot of games they won in the last 10 mins when other teams thought they had them beaten.

I fear big Joe though is not the tactical genius that some other managers might be and while he bring a lot to the table with commitment & hard work, his main contribution that sticks out in my head is the throwing of the losers medal against the wall at half time and saying that's all that means to me.
The success of managers is totally determined on results and winning cups and if they don't have the players to fulfil this then it doesnt matter how good the man in charge is.

Quote from: Fuzzman on October 27, 2010, 10:59:40 AM
I think most managers are only as good as the squad they have in front of them.
When Big Joe took over in 2002 he had a great squad of hungry players who had already been to the well several times and had built up the hunger for a big drive again.
I think most people would agree he did put the finishing touches to a good side and dragged them over the line and I suppose made them believe they could beat Kerry among other Big teams

He brought a new level of professionalism to that squad and dare I be so cheeky to say made them believe they were better than they really were. For a number of years from 2002-2007 Armagh's biggest strength in my eyes was their self belief and inner strength that they were the best team in Ireland. A lot of this probably came from McNulty and McGeeney and their emphasis on positive thinking all the time.
The look on their faces in 2003 when Tyrone beat them was one of shock that they actually had lost.
I think they were never allowed to even contemplate what to do if things were going wrong.
A lot of games they won in the last 10 mins when other teams thought they had them beaten.

I fear big Joe though is not the tactical genius that some other managers might be and while he bring a lot to the table with commitment & hard work, his main contribution that sticks out in my head is the throwing of the losers medal against the wall at half time and saying that's all that means to me.
The success of managers is totally determined on results and winning cups and if they don't have the players to fulfil this then it doesnt matter how good the man in charge is.

Im a Tyrone man so not sure why i am sticking up for Joe, but Armagh where knocking on the door for a few years without really being able to win the all ireland, no matter what anyone says about Joe Kernan - he got them over the line.. And when its your home county and its their first time, it definately, for me, creates a massive legacy - even if he wasnt a tactical genius! If Mickey hadn't won another two all irelands in Tyrone - he would still always be a legend here after taking them to a first all ireland! The achievement of taking a team to its first all ireland title should never be underestimated as there are so many mental barriers that need to be overcome and it takes a special manager to create the atmosphere for that to happen. Also what he did at Crossmaglen shouldn't be underestimated either.