Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

ONeill

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow. Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.

Tremendous post FoSB and sums up my views of this horrendous history.

What are the cases of abuse in Italy or South America compared to here?

I wanna have my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames.

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: ONeill on November 27, 2009, 11:22:53 PM
What are the cases of abuse in Italy or South America compared to here?

Fair question Shane, and something I've wondered about myself. It seems that sexual abuse is more prevalent with adults than minors in the non-Anglophone areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

ardmhachaabu

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow. Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.
FoSB :)

I think that the vow of celibacy which some clergy take is a very important part of their vocation - their vocation being to love everyone

You know my craic, my faith is very important to me - I am not asking it to be important to you or anyone else, with respect.  I don't think it's too much to ask for my thoughts to be respected in the same way as others want their beliefs in a 7 headed purple monster - actually those who say they believe in something so ludicrous are more likely to be believed than someone like  me with a simple faith :)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something

Fear ón Srath Bán

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 28, 2009, 12:01:28 AM
I think that the vow of celibacy which some clergy take is a very important part of their vocation - their vocation being to love everyone

You know my craic, my faith is very important to me - I am not asking it to be important to you or anyone else, with respect.  I don't think it's too much to ask for my thoughts to be respected in the same way as others want their beliefs in a 7 headed purple monster - actually those who say they believe in something so ludicrous are more likely to be believed than someone like  me with a simple faith :)

I'm not knocking it for everyone ardmhachaabu, but my preference would be for it to be a voluntary thing, not compulsory (there are so many instances of humans going off the rails with compulsory edicts that it's just not funny). I would like to see the compulsory aspect abolished, then it would truly be a thing of vocation, not compulsion.

And I respect your beliefs and faith, don't get me wrong. If the values of Christianity were adhered to by those who profess to love it most we wouldn't find ourselves in the mess we now do.
Good luck to you, sincerely.

Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

stew

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 28, 2009, 12:11:24 AM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 28, 2009, 12:01:28 AM
I think that the vow of celibacy which some clergy take is a very important part of their vocation - their vocation being to love everyone

You know my craic, my faith is very important to me - I am not asking it to be important to you or anyone else, with respect.  I don't think it's too much to ask for my thoughts to be respected in the same way as others want their beliefs in a 7 headed purple monster - actually those who say they believe in something so ludicrous are more likely to be believed than someone like  me with a simple faith :)

I'm not knocking it for everyone ardmhachaabu, but my preference would be for it to be a voluntary thing, not compulsory (there are so many instances of humans going off the rails with compulsory edicts that it's just not funny). I would like to see the compulsory aspect abolished, then it would truly be a thing of vocation, not compulsion.

And I respect your beliefs and faith, don't get me wrong. If the values of Christianity were adhered to by those who profess to love it most we wouldn't find ourselves in the mess we now do.
Good luck to you, sincerely.

Well said fear, your last sentence speaks volumes about you and sums up perfectly the state Christianity finds itself in.

I removed my last post because I am a coward, that said I love God and understand fully that none of us should put to much faith in man, any man, I did and I think to a certain extent we all did before the news of abuse broke. I cannot post on this thread anymore, it is too emotive.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

Fear ón Srath Bán

#500
Begone with you, begone!

From today's (28th Nov) Irish Times:

Pressure mounts on bishops named in abuse report to resign


PATSY McGARRY & HARRY McGEE

PRESSURE ON the five bishops who still hold office and whose handling of clerical child sex abuse was addressed by the Dublin diocesan report increased throughout yesterday.

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said all bishops implicated in the report should resign immediately. He said those who were in positions of authority in Dublin archdiocese, and who knew what was going on, should no longer continue in such positions.

"This is another appalling litany of shame. Apologies here are not good enough," he said.

Former Labour Party leader Pat Rabbitte said that any bishop "directly implicated" in the Dublin report "should have no role as a school patron".

Meanwhile, Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy has ordered Assistant Commissioner John O'Mahoney to commence an investigation into the findings of the report.

The relevant bishops are the Bishop of Limerick, Donal Murray, whose handling of a particular allegation was described as "inexcusable" in the report; Bishop Jim Moriarty of Kildare Leighlin diocese; Bishop Martin Drennan of Galway diocese; and the two Dublin auxiliary bishops, Bishop Ray Field and Bishop Éamonn Walsh.

Speaking at foundation day ceremonies at Our Lady's Children's Hospital in Crumlin yesterday, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said the story of how the sexual abuse of children was managed in the archdiocese, as shown in the report, "was inexcusable".

He noted that "regrettably this hospital was also the scene of abuse by at least two chaplains, who exploited their role of representing the care of Jesus for the children at their most vulnerable. Information about that abuse was inexcusably not shared with the hospital authorities, even though the archbishop of the time was also the chairman of the board."

He pointed out that the Dublin report "drew attention to the need "to clarify exactly what is the role of the HSE in relation to non-familial abusers".

Yet, he continued, "in the official Government statement yesterday [Thursday] the only reply to such a vital question, some four years after the Ferns report, was to say that it requires 'further consultation'."

Responding to the Dublin diocesan report, the Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary said that "everyone is deeply disgusted and disillusioned by the awfulness of the abuse, the vulnerability of the victims and the betrayal of the sacred trust placed in those who carried out this abuse".
Carlsberg don't do Gombeenocracies, but by jaysus if they did...

muppet

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:28:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Oh dear, you are now a liar - you are not a Catholic in anything but name.  In other words, you telling the world you are doesn't make you one - you need to actually follow the teaching of the church instead of creating one of your own to suit whatever agenda it is you are following, which most certainly isn't a Catholic one

Oh dear, what a wonderful Catholic you are telling others, who you haven't even met, about their faith. You deny that the Church is responsible for the abuse of hundreds of children that were abused. Your absolution of the organisation is typical of the attitude that has perpetrated the cover-ups for decades.

You point blank refuse to discuss the abuse and resort to playing the man confident in your own Godly superiority.

The Catholic Church is responsible for the sexual abuse of hundreds of children in Ireland and thousands worldwide. That is an established fact and they have admitted it. You cannot change that.
MWWSI 2017

orangeman

My own opinion as to why it happened was because some of them ( not all ) were pushed into the priesthood by their mothers who thought that having a priest in the family was something to rejoice about and it conferred on the donor family a respect that hitherto perhaps ( not in all cases ) wasn't there.


Obviously forced celibacy was part of the problem.


The fact that priests were held in disproprtionately high esteem suggested to some that they could get away with almost anything - some of them took full advantage.


In addition, some abusers were already there when some of them went to the various seminaries and there was almost a culuture of abuse.


Therefore, there are no simple one word answers.

Here's an interesting view form today's Indo.



There are no simple answers to why it happened
By PATRICIA CASEY


Saturday November 28 2009

The theories that explain paedophilia do not provide any optimism that it can be prevented

The unfolding of the terrible horror of child sexual abuse by clerics in Ireland that has emerged over the past decade raises huge questions.

Since the publication of the Murphy report on Thursday, the focus has been on the collusion by Church and State to conceal this truth and protect the guilty.

However, a fundamental questions that begs for an answer is why did priests behave as they did? The answer is essential if such scandals are to be avoided in the future and if children are to be truly protected.

The obvious angle for many commentators has been to focus on celibacy. Yet the belief that marriage is a cure for paedophilia is flawed and is without foundation. Catholic priests in other countries have not been linked to child abuse to the extent that they have been in the English-speaking Church.


Indeed, Spanish, Italian and German Catholics describe bewilderment on hearing of the molestation of children in Ireland, the US and Australia.

Indeed, if child abusers were largely celibate then the frequency of child molestation generally should plummet since the setting in which it is currently reported is within the family usually, and those most at risk are children whose mothers are living with partners rather than with the biological father -- in other words, the child is living with a man who has no emotional tie to the child.

A recurring theme in much of the scientific literature, as well as from clinical reporting on child abuse, is that there is a cycle of abuse from one generation to the next. Not all studies support this thesis, but many do.

A possible explanation is that the rationalisations of the abuser, such as claims that the behaviour is an expression of love are incorporated into the thinking of the victim.

The understandable shame of what has happened becomes transmuted in a belief that the actions are an expression of care.

Furthermore, many children will never have known true parental love and the only "love" they will have experienced is the sexualised form -- hence their early sexualisation.

A further Fiach Kelly of abuse rests with the misuse of alcohol that many abused adolescents resort to in order to deaden the pain and block the memories of the abuse they suffered. Over time, whatever sexual inhibitions they possess are dissolved by alcohol and the brake pads of guilt, shame and restraint are no longer operational.

But it is vulnerable children who are usually targeted by abusers. Abusers do not relate easily in mature adult relationships and they feel more comfortable in those that do not make demands for reciprocity, trust, responsibility.

Instead, they crave power and control and seek out those who are unable to defend themselves against sexual pressures. In this respect, personality, immaturity and flawed sexual development are found in all child abusers, clerical or lay.

However, priests were in a unique position of trust within society and so had ready access to children. Whether they were attracted to the priesthood for that reason is unknown but, in my opinion, this is unlikely. After all, there were other methods by which they could gain access to children without having to survive the rigours of seminary life, the years of study and the loneliness of the priest's life.


It is possible that some entered the priesthood not because they wanted to, but because society and their parents expected them to.

Their religious vocation was externally rather than internally driven and they lacked the personal maturity to make independent choices.

Coupled with inadequate preparation for a life in the priesthood that involved loneliness and, among other things, celibacy, they decompensated into the sexual abuse of children. In their personalities they were weak but the abuse of children conferred a vicarious sense of power.


There is no single, magic bullet to explain the cause of paedophilia and seeking such will only yield fool's gold. And the theories that explain it do not provide any optimism that it can be prevented.

Above all, we must not accept claims it can be cured -- only tragedy will follow as the Murphy report shows.

Patricia Casey is Professor of Psychiatry at UCD/Mater HosPital

- PATRICIA CASEY

Irish Independent


Main Street

Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.





pintsofguinness

Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2009, 01:04:30 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.

So would i!
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

muppet

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2009, 01:13:28 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2009, 01:04:30 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.

So would i!

Why is that important?
MWWSI 2017

pintsofguinness

Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2009, 01:21:11 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2009, 01:13:28 PM
Quote from: Main Street on November 28, 2009, 01:04:30 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.

So would i!

Why is that important?
I dont think it is important or really relevant if we're talking about why there was so much abuse, just passing comment that I doubt many, if any stick to to celibacy, to it's full meaning.
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

mylestheslasher

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:50:14 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:38:35 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:28:44 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:13:23 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Oh dear, you are now a liar - you are not a Catholic in anything but name.  In other words, you telling the world you are doesn't make you one - you need to actually follow the teaching of the church instead of creating one of your own to suit whatever agenda it is you are following, which most certainly isn't a Catholic one

This is the pathetic depressing type of comment I spoke about earlier. No better man to come out with it. What Muppet has said is the truth, is there something in the catholic teaching that says you only speak the truth as long as it is not critical of the church?

The church allowed priests to abuse kids, covered it up and hindered and fought tooth and nail to be keep it covered up. This attitude is right the way to the top in the vatican. You keep telling yourself it is all a few bad apples, stick your head in the sand and wait for it all to blow over. You are made of the same stuff as the bishops and cardinals. Sounds like you missed your calling.

The people abused in this country have done us a great service by fighting for justice against the catholic church. Now we can all see what a scourge they have been on this country. Go back to any major event in Irish history that the catholic church are all over it with their self serving manipulation. From the fenians, to the irb, the blackening of parnell, Infiltrating the land league all the way to the troubles they have been there looking after number 1. No Christian needs to have anything to do with this church to be a good Christian.


Hardy

#508
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 28, 2009, 05:08:10 PMis there something in the catholic teaching that says you only speak the truth as long as it is not critical of the church?

Dunno about that, but I learned yesterday that there's something called "mental reservation" that allows clerics to lie while pretending, even to themselves, to be telling the truth. Trust the sophists of the church to come up with something as mind-splitting as that.

It seems to be the church equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your back when you make a promise.

This is how it works - when you make a statement where you don't want to tell the truth, you make whatever statement you want to, but "mentally reserve" or hold back in your mind, the actual truth. That is, you lie, but it's allowed because, well, you pretend not to be lying. A sort of double lie, really.

Thus, some parish priest who wanted to avoid meeting a woman who had been challenging him about abuse allegations in his parish could tell his curate, "tell her I'm not in". He was, apparently, "mentally reserving" the addendum "to her". He wasn't in to her.

Likewise, the ex-archbishop (don't you love people who give themselves titles with words like "arch" and "superior" in them) of Dublin felt able to state that he co-operated with an enquiry by mentally reserving the word "fully".

Wouldn't that give you a squint, even trying to think about such a mentality?

Who could blame anyone for taking a two-by-four to a b**tard like that while "mentally reserving" the intent to do him any damage?

haranguerer

The whole thing stank to the high heavens, and if the same situation was set up tomorrow, the same thing would happen.Those in the church are people, nothing more, nothing less. They were exalted in the state - they are bound to have felt untouchable and able to do what they want.

Celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. As FOSB says, it is a perversion inducing notion: that most primeval of urges being suppressed is bound to f**k anyone up. And so, children, it being easier to hide, became the victims. The fact that they got away with the abuse owes to the relationship the church and state had. Looking back now, its easy to say it was a mess, but Ireland of not that long ago was very different to that we have now, and for all todays problems, thank f**k for that.

Everything about the church stank - my father used to say that the only people who could ever buy land were those with priests in the family, down to the alms the f**kers got - money people gave them in the dusk of their life to 'gaurantee passage into heaven'. Such a bunch of c***ts. The chruch in Ireland will never be the same, thank god.

I do know quite a few very decent priests however, and I do feel for them a bit, in that everyone looks at a priest suspiciously now, but then better that than the alternative.