Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

orangeman

Orders offer abuse compensation 

Children suffered systematic abuse and neglect in Catholic-run institutions
More religious orders have offered compensation packages for victims who suffered child abuse in Catholic-run institutions in the Irish Republic.

It follows the announcement of a 161m euros package from the Christian Brothers on Wednesday, to atone for the crimes of its members.
Five more congregations have offered 43m euros in reparations between them.

An official report, published in May, found children had been systematically abused in many institutions.

Oppressive regime

The Ryan report took submissions from over 2,000 people who said they had suffered physical and sexual abuse at Catholic-run orphanages and industrial schools in the Republic of Ireland, going back many decades.

COMPENSATION OFFERS
20m euros - Oblates of Mary Immaculate
10m euros - Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul
5m euros - Sisters of Charity
5m euros - Presentation Sisters
3m euros - Presentation Brothers
It painted a picture of an oppressive regime, where many children were frequently hungry, neglected and sometimes subjected to beatings and rape.

The report was greeted with public outrage and demands that religious orders contribute to a new trust fund to help former residents come to terms with their abuse.

The new fund would collect payments in addition to those already submitted by religious orders through the Republic's Residential Institutions Redress Board, which was set up in 2002 to make awards to former residents who had received injuries consistent with abuse.

In addition to the Christian Brothers, five other orders have published details of their compensation offer on their websites.

The Oblates of Mary Immaculate said they would contribute 20m euros "in reparation for failings on their part while managing St Conleth's Reformatory in Daingean, County Offaly between 1940 and 1973.

"This payment is also motivated by a desire to assist in alleviating the present needs of former pupils of St. Conleth's who are in need of help," the statement said.

'Genuine regret'

The Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul are to give 10m euros and said they "again unreservedly apologise to anyone who was abused and hurt while in our care as children".

The order outlined its valued assets, which total 339.2m euros, and said it would donate the 10m euros
"over three years or in a shorter time, depending on how quickly the Congregation can sell properties to make up the figure promised".

The Sisters of Charity have offered 5m euros which they will pay over a five year period.

In a letter to the Irish education minister, the sisters said they "genuinely regret any suffering experienced by former residents while in institutions under our care".

The Presentation Sisters said their contribution of 5m euros was given in the context that only 1% of the claims made under the redress scheme related to their order

'Help and healing'

They also said the offer would be supplemented by their ongoing contributions to the counselling service for persons who experienced abuse and was "in addition to an earlier contribution of 5.2 m euro to the Redress Board".

The Presentation Brothers offered 3m euros, which it said represented one third of its available funds.
The order was responsible for one industrial school, St Joseph's in Greenmount, County Cork, which closed in 1959.

In a statement the brothers said they wanted to "bring help and healing to the survivors" and were "willing to co-operate with the government and others in this process".



orangeman

Irish Church accused of abuse cover-up 

Four archbishops turned a blind eye to abuse 
A damning report into clerical child abuse in the Dublin archdiocese has criticised the Church authorities for covering up the abuse.

The report investigated how Church and state authorities handled allegations of child abuse against 46 priests.

It found that the Church placed its own reputation above the protection of children in its care.

It also said that state authorities facilitated the cover-up by allowing the Church to operate outside the law.





The "Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin" covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

It has laid bare a culture of concealment where church leaders prioritised the protection of their own institution above that of vulnerable children in their care.

Victims

Instead of reporting the allegations to civic authorities, those accused of horrific crimes were systematically shuffled from parish to parish where they could prey on new, unsuspecting victims.

The avoidance of public scandal which would inevitably follow high-profile prosecutions appeared more important than preventing abusers from repeating their crimes.



Church and state authorities colluded to cover up child abuse
The report found that four archbishops - John Charles McQuaid who died in 1973, Dermot Ryan who died in 1984, Kevin McNamara who died in 1987, and retired Cardinal Desmond Connell - did not hand over information on abusers.

Civic authorities were also criticised for their cosy relationship with the Church.

The commissioner of the Irish police, Fachtna Murphy, said the report made for "difficult and disturbing reading, detailing as it does many instances of sexual abuse and failure on the part of both Church and State authorities to protect victims".

He added: "The commission has found that in some cases, because of acts or omissions, individuals who sought assistance did not always receive the level of response or protection which any citizen in trouble is entitled to expect from An Garda Síochána (the Irish police).

He said he was "deeply sorry" for the failures.



omagh_gael

Did anyone hear Dermot Ahernes speech earlier regarding the Dublin abuse report? Extreme savaging of the catholic church in general relating to this matter and severely critical of the Garda for their role in not policing the matter appropriately. About time this matter and the animals that committed these henious crimes serve their time.     

orangeman

Quote from: omagh_gael on November 26, 2009, 03:35:14 PM
Did anyone hear Dermot Ahernes speech earlier regarding the Dublin abuse report? Extreme savaging of the catholic church in general relating to this matter and severely critical of the Garda for their role in not policing the matter appropriately. About time this matter and the animals that committed these henious crimes serve their time.   
[/b]


Can't see this happening anytime soon.

mylestheslasher

So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

omagh_gael

Quote from: orangeman on November 26, 2009, 03:36:21 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on November 26, 2009, 03:35:14 PM
Did anyone hear Dermot Ahernes speech earlier regarding the Dublin abuse report? Extreme savaging of the catholic church in general relating to this matter and severely critical of the Garda for their role in not policing the matter appropriately. About time this matter and the animals that committed these henious crimes serve their time.   
[/b]


Can't see this happening anytime soon.

More than likely OM although he did insist that no matter how long ago these crimes were committed all possible measures will be made to bring them to book. I hope this is the case.

Lazer

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive
Down for Sam 2017 (Have already written of 2016!)

mylestheslasher

Quote from: Lazer on November 26, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive

The past!!!!

The cover up was not in the past (unless you are talking 1 or 2 years), neither were the mealy mouth apologies nor the frustration of the investigation or the compensation issue. But, but heh, if it makes you feel better let say it was all in the past. Sure I started writing this post in the past too...

Yes I Would

Quote from: Lazer on November 26, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive

Not so sure!.. There still exists many within the church in my opinion who were part of this sick and evil regime that was commonplace throughout Ireland and have resisted any attempts at every opportunity to part with control and money at every opportunity. Everyone of the bastards should be named and shamed!!

Tony Baloney

Quote from: Lazer on November 26, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive
They have only taken steps to prevent this happening in the future after being shamed into it. They knew this was going on and did next to nothing until the scale of the issue was made public.

muppet

Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 26, 2009, 05:59:08 PM
Quote from: Lazer on November 26, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive
They have only taken steps to prevent this happening in the future after being shamed into it. They knew this was going on and did next to nothing until the scale of the issue was made public.

Agreed and worse than that they covered it up for decades. Anyone who perverted (sorry) the course of justice should be prosecuted. I believe the report refers to high ranking Gárdaí who didn't properly pursue the issues possibly due to their strong beliefs. I have a problem with a certain lay religious group that hold powerful positions in this country and indeed one of their members carried out an early whimsical investigation into this isse.
MWWSI 2017

mylestheslasher

Glad to see this getting coverage abroad too. You never know, the vatican may even respond. On page 223 of the report it outlines how th vatican were contacted for information. They never bothered  to respond - instead  they complained to the Irish government for the judge having the gaul to contact them instead of using diplomatic channels!! Oh yes, the church has really changed.

From the Indo in the UK

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/church-had-immunity-to-conceal-sex-abuse-says-report-1828168.html

Church had immunity to conceal sex abuse, says report
By Ed Carty and Sarah Stack, Press Association

The Catholic hierarchy in Ireland was granted immunity to cover up child sex abuse among paedophile priests in Dublin, a damning report revealed today.

Authorities enjoyed a cosy relationship with the Church and did not enforce the law as four archbishops, obsessed with secrecy and avoiding scandal, protected abusers and reputations at all costs.

Hundreds of crimes against defenceless children from the 1960s to the 1990s were not reported while gardai treated clergy as though they were above the law.

In a three-year inquiry, the Commission to Inquire into the Dublin Archdiocese uncovered a sickening tactic of "don't ask, don't tell" throughout the Church.

"The Commission has no doubt that clerical child sexual abuse was covered up by the Archdiocese of Dublin and other Church authorities," it said.

"The structures and rules of the Catholic Church facilitated that cover-up.

"The State authorities facilitated that cover-up by not fulfilling their responsibilities to ensure that the law was applied equally to all and allowing the Church institutions to be beyond the reach of the normal law enforcement processes."

Four archbishops - John Charles McQuaid who died in 1973, Dermot Ryan who died in 1984, Kevin McNamara who died in 1987, and retired Cardinal Desmond Connell - did not hand over information on abusers.

The first files were handed over by the Cardinal in 1995 but even then he had records of complaints against at least 28 priests.

The primary loyalty of bishops and archbishops is to the Church, the report said.

Bishop James Kavanagh, Bishop Dermot O'Mahony, Bishop Laurence Forristal, Bishop Donal Murray and disgraced Bishop Brendan Comiskey, a reformed alcoholic who failed to control paedophile priests when in charge of the Ferns Diocese, all knew about child abuse for many years.

The inquiry, headed by Judge Yvonne Murphy, said the hierarchy cannot claim they did not know that child sex abuse was a crime.

Cardinal Connell was credited for instigating two secret canon law trials which took place over the 30-year period and led to two priests being defrocked.

Monsignor Gerard Sheehy, a powerful figure in the Catholic Archdiocese, one of the largest in Europe, fought to prevent the internal prosecutions.

Religious orders, for example the Columbans, had clear knowledge of complaints dating back to the early 1970s.

Parts of the 700-page report have been censored to prevent pending or potential prosecutions of abusers being prejudiced with references to two priests, and one of the cleric's brothers, removed.

While the Dublin Archdiocese inquiry found no evidence of a paedophile ring, some of the most shocking findings included:

* One priest admitted sexually abusing more than 100 children;

* Another accepted he abused on a fortnightly basis during his 25-year ministry;

* One complaint was made against a priest who later admitted abusing at least six other children;

* It took gardai 20 years to decide on a prosecution of one priest.

The inquiry said it uncovered inappropriate contacts between authorities and the Archdiocese.

Allegations were made against one priest, known as Fr Edmondus, but Garda Commissioner Daniel Costigan handed the case to Archbishop McQuaid and took no other action.

The inquiry also warned of inappropriate relations between some senior gardai and priests in two other cases.

"A number of very senior members of the gardai, including the Commissioner (Costigan) in 1960, clearly regarded priests as being outside their remit," the report said.

"There are some examples of gardai actually reporting complaints to the Archdiocese instead of investigating them.

"It is fortunate that some junior members of the force did not take the same view."

The inquiry, which was looking at a sample of 46 priests dating back to 1975 but took its review back as far as the 1940s, outlined an insurance scheme for victims set up by the Archdiocese in 1987.

Church files show at the time Archbishops McNamara, Ryan and McQuaid had, between them, information on complaints against at least 17 priests.

The Commission said it proved the hierarchy knew the sex abuse scandals would cost the Church dearly.

"The taking out of insurance was proving knowledge of child sex abuse as a major cost to the Archdiocese and is inconsistent with the view that archdiocesan officials were still 'on a learning curve' at a much later date, or were lacking in an appreciation of the phenomenon of clerical child sex abuse," it said.

The Archdiocese was pre-occupied until the mid-1990s with maintaining secrecy, avoiding scandal, protecting the reputation of the Church and preservation of assets.

All other concerns, including the damage done to young victims, came second, the report said.

"The welfare of the children, which should have been the first priority, was not even a factor to be considered in the early days," the Commission said.

mylestheslasher

Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie


muppet

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 07:03:36 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie

Can I ask that you delete that post and start it in a new thread? It is an interesting subject but might be better in another thread. 
MWWSI 2017

pintsofguinness

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 07:03:36 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie
I think that's been posted up before?  Is that real? 
I think it was pointed out the last time it was posted that people would want to think about that before they do it.


You know who I'm most angry and disgusted with in all of this, and I'm not sure why, the people. The normal people who must have been f**king completely brain washed! What the hell was wrong with them!  People, not just the police or the govt, knew this was happening and did nothing.
My ma was telling me there about something on the radio today, some woman was on and her and the sister were abused by the priest. Her mother was one of these who'd cook the priest's dinners, and the priest would call around at night when they were in bed and he'd have to to the children's bedroom to "say goodnight".  That's were the abuse took place. Now, there is no doubt in my mind the mother knew what has happening, you would have to be clean stupid not to and she done nothing.  And then there was something else about some woman going to the bishops house (as you do, rather than to the guards) to complain about a priest abusing someone and she was threatened with excommunication so she didn't pursue it.  What the f**k!  Same goes for the mothers and fathers who allowed their grandchildren, who's only crime was to be born out of wedlock, to be taken away and their daughters through in these laundries.  Unbelievable.
Those are the people I am most disgusted with.
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?