Clerical abuse!

Started by D4S, May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Jim_Murphy_74

Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 04:50:57 PM
Even if that means the closure of essential services? I'm thinking in particular here of Sister Consilios in Newry which is the only emergency admittance drug and alcohol treatment centre in the north.

If they cannot unreservedly apologise and remove the rules/canon laws/policy that contributed to covering up what happened, then unfortunately could happen.  That said I doubt it would.

Donagh

Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 04:28:47 PM
Thats bullshit and you know it. The state is paying for everything over and above 100 million promised by the Church Orders. The current estimate on the end bill is 1 billion. That means the Orders who inflicted the abuse, covered it up and obstructed the enquiry are deemed 10% liable and the tax payer 90%. I can concede the state are without fault but if it was up to me those percentages would be reversed. However, a 50:50 arrangement would be a big improvement.

Myles you still haven't put a case as to why those figures should be reversed. It wasn't the Church that carried out the abuse but individuals who were members of the Church. Do you hold the Prison Officers Federation responsible for abuse of prisoners locked up at the moment? The victims were placed in the abusive environment by the State in full knowledge they would be abused. The citizens of this country kept putting the same corrupt bastards into power knowing they would do nothing. In such instances, the buck stops with the State, the people who run the State and ultimately the fools that put them there.

Jim_Murphy_74

Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 05:04:41 PM
Myles you still haven't put a case as to why those figures should be reversed. It wasn't the Church that carried out the abuse but individuals who were members of the Church. Do you hold the Prison Officers Federation responsible for abuse of prisoners locked up at the moment?

Donagh,

The Prison Officers Federation is a representative group, the catholic church is far more than that.  The day the vatican issued a dictat that abuse was not to be reported to civil authorities (with a punishment of excommunication) then the church as a body took on a role much greater than representation.   With that role came responsibility and liability.  This responsiblity was not foisted upon them, they took it of their own volition and need to face up to that.




orangeman

Better late than never !!!!!


Evidence of abuse sought by gardaí
  Thursday, 28 May 2009 16:58
The Government is encouraging anyone who has information about child abuse in Catholic institutions to come forward to gardaí.

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern stressed that the more evidence provided, the greater the chances of securing convictions.

However, he acknowledged that there would be difficulties in proving offences from a long time ago.

AdvertisementHe said witnesses could come forward in complete confidence and should contact the office of the Garda Assistant Commissioner appointed to examine the Ryan Report.

A special garda phone number has also been set up: 01-6663612.

The Dáil has unanimously passed an all-party motion calling on the Congregations to make further substantial contributions by way of reparation to the victims of institutional abuse.

It called on the congregations to make further substantial contributions, including to a trust set up and managed by the State for the support of victims and to other education and welfare purposes.

The motion also apologises to the victims of abuse for the failure to intervene, and says support for them must be the priority for all concerned.

A full two-day debate on the Report of the Commission on Child Abuse will be held when the Dáil returns after next week's local and European elections.

Minister for Health Mary Harney, who was taking the Order of Business for the Government, told the Dáil she did not want to pre-empt the outcome of discussions with the congregations.

However she added that the Taoiseach would be taking a 'robust' approach in those talks.

Meanwhile, Labour's Joan Burton has called on the Government to verify if the Ryan Commission was planning to destroy documents it gathered in its compilation of the report on institutional abuse.

She said such an outcome would be an appalling insult to the victims of abuse.

McAleese backs abuse prosecutions

President Mary McAleese believes people should face prosecutions as a result of the Ryan Report into child abuse.

Mrs McAleese was speaking in Boston on the final leg of an official visit to the US state of Massachusetts. She has been meeting Irish communities and promoting Irish industry and tourism.

Her visit also coincided with a considerable amount of publicity in US media on the fall-out from the Ryan Report.

In an interview with RTÉ News, the President said the report showed a catalogue of criminal offences, and that people who committed these awful crimes against innocent children should face prosecution.

Prosecution might not bring closure, but it would bring justice, she added.


Donagh

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 05:09:24 PM
The Prison Officers Federation is a representative group, the catholic church is far more than that.  The day the vatican issued a dictat that abuse was not to be reported to civil authorities (with a punishment of excommunication) then the church as a body took on a role much greater than representation.   With that role came responsibility and liability.  This responsiblity was not foisted upon them, they took it of their own volition and need to face up to that.

Jim the Vatican didn't issue any such dictat and even if it had it would make any difference. Those responsible for the abuse and cover-up are still bound by the laws of the State and should be prosecuted accordingly. The State failed in it's duty of care to it's most vulnerable citizens and should also have to answer for that.

Jim_Murphy_74

Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 05:23:33 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 05:09:24 PM
The Prison Officers Federation is a representative group, the catholic church is far more than that.  The day the vatican issued a dictat that abuse was not to be reported to civil authorities (with a punishment of excommunication) then the church as a body took on a role much greater than representation.   With that role came responsibility and liability.  This responsiblity was not foisted upon them, they took it of their own volition and need to face up to that.

Jim the Vatican didn't issue any such dictat and even if it had it would make any difference. Those responsible for the abuse and cover-up are still bound by the laws of the State and should be prosecuted accordingly. The State failed in it's duty of care to it's most vulnerable citizens and should also have to answer for that.

Donagh,

The Ferns inquiry stated taht the document "Crimens Sollicitationis" from Pope John XXIII "specifically  dealt with how priests who abused children were to be handled and imposed a high degree of secrecy on all Church officials involved in such case".   "Automatic excomunication should be imposed on any person breaking the oath of secrecy".  I don't know anymore only that is what the inquiry stated.

The day that document was published was the day they took responsibility.  I can't agree that this makes no difference.


Donagh

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 05:50:24 PM
The Ferns inquiry stated taht the document "Crimens Sollicitationis" from Pope John XXIII "specifically  dealt with how priests who abused children were to be handled and imposed a high degree of secrecy on all Church officials involved in such case".   "Automatic excomunication should be imposed on any person breaking the oath of secrecy".  I don't know anymore only that is what the inquiry stated.

The day that document was published was the day they took responsibility.  I can't agree that this makes no difference.


Where does it say that they shouldn't be reported to the civil authorities?

Pangurban

Its a reasonable assumption Donagh, and is open to that interpretation, intended or not.

Donagh

Quote from: Pangurban on May 28, 2009, 08:34:53 PM
Its a reasonable assumption Donagh, and is open to that interpretation, intended or not.

I was curious about the John XXIII reference so I Wikied there to see what it is all about and this is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis

That document relates to solicitations by a priest during Confession. I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix. My Latin isn't the best so I can't comment directly on the source but here is a comment from Wiki:

The document dealt exclusively with the procedure to be followed in connection with a denunciation to the ecclesiastical authority of a priest guilty of solicitation in Confession or of similar acts. It imposed secrecy about the conduct of the ecclesiastical trial, not allowing, for instance, statements made during the trial by witnesses or by the accused to be published. But it did not in any way impose silence on those who were victims of the priest's conduct or who had learned of it in ways unconnected with the ecclesiastical trial.

"These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."
-- Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza

mylestheslasher

Quote from: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 05:04:41 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 04:28:47 PM
Thats bullshit and you know it. The state is paying for everything over and above 100 million promised by the Church Orders. The current estimate on the end bill is 1 billion. That means the Orders who inflicted the abuse, covered it up and obstructed the enquiry are deemed 10% liable and the tax payer 90%. I can concede the state are without fault but if it was up to me those percentages would be reversed. However, a 50:50 arrangement would be a big improvement.

Myles you still haven't put a case as to why those figures should be reversed. It wasn't the Church that carried out the abuse but individuals who were members of the Church. Do you hold the Prison Officers Federation responsible for abuse of prisoners locked up at the moment? The victims were placed in the abusive environment by the State in full knowledge they would be abused. The citizens of this country kept putting the same corrupt b**tards into power knowing they would do nothing. In such instances, the buck stops with the State, the people who run the State and ultimately the fools that put them there.

Plenty of people have made the case already with a range of reason but if you want mine on top of that then fine. The church ran the institutions. The churches representatives raped, abused tortured children from the ages of FOUR to 18. The report says that this abuse was Endemic and systematic. That means there was not the couple of bad apples and that the whole system was set up to brutalise. I already relayed a story from the report how a christian brother who was not violent when he started in the school was forced to be violent by his colleagues. When he finally turned violent he was greeted with a round of applause by all his fellow "teachers". The state did not rape, abuse or torture children. Any child that tried to report what was happening got the shite kicked out of them. Any allegations made were buried and sent to the VATICAN for hiding. All efforts over the years to get to the truth have been met with absolute defence by the churches representative who increased the hurt to victims by insinuating they were liars and in it for the money. Right up until this report was put out the church has resisted and obstructed the investigation - the state did not.

Now your case is that the government is responsible as they placed the kids into these institutions. That ignores the times that were in it back then. The church was more powerful than the state. People were afraid of the church, afraid they'd be refused communion. People who fell out with the church were banished and were pariahs in society. TD's and ministers were no different, the church had a stranglehold on the state. These schools were set up by the church to "correct" young fallen people. There are plenty of stories in the report of courts being "instructed" by the church on what sentances to give kids. 2 years for stealing a bike I read yesterday in one of the papers, the judge wanted to give 6 months but the church said they would not take him in unless it was for two years. The judge gave in. That was the power they yielded. That was the power they abused - just like the FF politicans of today that you are always (righfully) pulling up on their corruption.

Some of the institutions were full of fallen girls who committed the crime of becoming pregant out of marriage. Some were full of orphans. None of these were sent to  these places by the state. They were sent by the priests of the country. Fallen girls were hounded out of parishes by priests who threatened the fires of hell on their families. I have a friend who was adopted. He told me how he met his mother for the first time when he turned 30 yrs old, she was forced to give him up to an orphanage by her family due to pressure from a priest.

The church had it filthy claws all over Irish society. In its government and in its institutions. It is absolutley vastly in the wrong here as is the state to a much lesser degree.

I am no friend of  the church. I am a republican and the church have been no friend of republicanism for 100's of years. I believe they have too much power in this country. I believe a church should be concerned with spirituality and nothing more in a state. I believe the church has absolutley no place in a primary school to warp the mind of the most vunerable in society. So quite frankly I don't give too shits where they get the money to fork up for what they owe - thats their problem (just like it would be mine if I was liable for damages against someone).

The state is not without blame but today the state is taking 90% of it which we, taxpayers in the south must now pay for. The church should be taking the majority

Donagh

"Whoever done the work, it was done in the name of the State."

Donagh

Myles I've a number of issues with you post. Firstly the Church did not run the industrial schools, but individual members of the Church ran them on behalf of the State. Those people may have been representatives of their Orders but in their role as teachers and warders, they were primarily representatives of the State.

I haven't denied the abuse was systemic.

Your claim about allegations being sent to the Vatican for hiding needs to be substantiated in that it's almost DaVinci Codesque in terms of the conspiracy theory it conjures. What makes you think that the Church had total control over all complaints that came in? Did the government inspectorates report directly to the Vatican?

You say the Church was more powerful than the State. If that was so then the State was again failing in it's duties.

You say the priests took children away from their mothers. If that was so then it was illegal. If it was allowed then again the State was failing in it's constitutional obligations in terms of caring for it's citizens.

Now, I guess I'm going to have to put a disclaimer in here. I am in no way defending the actions of the people involved in the abuse nor am I defending the privileged position the Church had in Irish society. I believe the state that was established in the south and DeValeras 'Republic' to be a betrayal of everything that was fought for during the War of Independence but it was the politicians of FF and FG that betrayed the republican ideal and the Irish people by putting the Church in that privileged position. The Church should not and should never have any say in the affairs of State. That is not to say that it doesn't have a role in society looking after it's own.  


orangeman

Remember the way the Bishop used to throw the ball up for the start of the All ireland finals and the captains had to kiss his ring before the match ???


What the f--k was all that about ??????????

Pangurban

Have to agree with Donagh, the people elected politicians to uphold and defend the state and its citizens. That those politicians clearly failed, has now been firmly established. Though it has to be said that the few brave politicians who stood up to the Bishops eg. Peader o Donnell and Noel Browne, received little support from the public at large and in many cases were vilified. There are no clean hands here, and lots of blame to go around. Much has been made of the cultural norms of the times, it would therefore be interesting to know did a similar state of affairs exist in any other catholic country, or was it just part of an Irish psyche

Declan

QuoteMuch has been made of the cultural norms of the times, it would therefore be interesting to know did a similar state of affairs exist in any other catholic country, or was it just part of an Irish psyche

I've said it in a couple of my contributions to this thread but the republic was the equivalent of what is now known as a fundamentalist Islamic state - Think Afghanistan under the Taliban. Saudi Arabia currently or Iran post 1979 and you get an idea of what it was like in the Republic. The Church was all powerful and as we know "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

QuoteI believe the state that was established in the south and DeValeras 'Republic' to be a betrayal of everything that was fought for during the War of Independence but it was the politicians of FF and FG that betrayed the republican ideal and the Irish people by putting the Church in that privileged position. The Church should not and should never have any say in the affairs of State. That is not to say that it doesn't have a role in society looking after it's own. 

Agree 100%. Interestingly I quote this segment of the proclamation to every politician who comes to my door looking for a vote - The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

However remember that God was invoked in the proclamation as well  We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God. Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine