China Coronavirus

[armaghniac]

Hopefully the bussed in 40 scumbags have contracted the disease.

I'd say a lot of people in Donegal would love 5G and see no prospect of getting it.

[trileacman]

He precisely misses the point here. The US non-restriction policy is promoting economic welfare over the health of its citizens. So they're trying to provide "freedom" from sudden unemployment, bankruptcy etc but potentially at the cost of human lives.

But it doesn't really work, the economic declined in the US only fractionally less than in Germany, which had comparatively few deaths. So the Germans did a much better job on the health of their citizens with about the same promotion of economic welfare.

Economic contraction in spain Italy France uk are all projected at over 11% for 2020. Sweden and US are projected at about 6 and 7% respectively.

German stats are a bit of an outlier in that they got on top of test and trace very early and kept their deaths down. German restrictions have also been lighter than the European average as seen by spectators at bundesliga matches so Germany's figure reaffirms the point, stringent lockdown= economic damage.

[armaghniac]

Economic contraction in spain Italy France uk are all projected at over 11% for 2020. Sweden and US are projected at about 6 and 7% respectively.

and Germany of course.

[trileacman]

This thread is well worth reading

https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1309668851387334663

1) As a US citizen in Sweden, I'm disturbed when I see the US right push the "Swedish model" for dealing with COVID19. It's an utterly cynical, disingenuous position that goes far beyond the question of lockdowns and masks, and highlights what's rotten at the core of US society.

2) The US political right are using a misleading vision of Sweden's COVID19 policy to promote a brutal philosophy of savage individualism, fatalism and "freedom from government." The irony of this position is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

3) Sweden's COVID policy hardly a success (6000 dead), but natl. policy can only be understood as inseparable from Sweden's developed welfare state, social system: universal healthcare, paid sick leave, paid leave to care for sick kids, subsidized daycare & pre/after-school care.

4) For many Swedes, social security policies in place mean getting COVID not a crushing financial blow; or, if jobs are lost, the state will help to support you. It's impossible — and frankly stupid — to even try to see Sweden's COVID19 strategy as separated from these policies.

5) So, it's some pretty cynical bullshit for US right-wingers who have, under the banner of "Small Government" and "Liberty," devoted their lives to  crushing universal healthcare and other humane social policies now claim to support the "Swedish model" for tackling COVID19.

6) In pushing US version of "Swedish model" for COVID19 (in other words, w/none of the Swedish healthcare, social programs), the US right is just telling citizens to enjoy their "liberty" without restriction, but if they get sick, spouse gets sick, company goes bust...tough shit.

7) Let's also be clear that even w/Sweden's relatively developed, generous social policies, many here are struggling, and many in low-paying part-time jobs must continue to work even when they suspect they're sick. So, pushing a "Swedish approach" w/even fewer safety nets? Crazy.


9) And we should never let it slip through cracks that in Sweden, just as in US, minorities have been hit disproportionately hard by COVID19, in large part due to relative poverty and the type of employment. Making access to healthcare and social programs all the more important.

A very strange reading of the situation. The fear from a large scale Covid outbreak is not financial ruin for those who are infected but their deaths. The US government is pushing for lower restrictions to prevent a widespread financial crisis that they would be unable/willing to provide social security for those affected.

The situation is the exact reverse in Sweden, a welfare state. Their Covid policy stands in direct conflict with, rather than consistent with their social policies. If anything it would have made more sense for Sweden to employ a widespread lockdown given that they would have committed to supporting businesses/ providing social security etc.

Political right cherry-pick two issues from Sweden — lockdowns, masks — & pitch them as symbols of "freedom." But real freedom comes from not being bankrupted by illness, paying for childcare, sudden unemployment. The right wants you to forget the second half of that equation.

He precisely misses the point here. The US non-restriction policy is promoting economic welfare over the health of its citizens. So they're trying to provide "freedom" from sudden unemployment, bankruptcy etc but potentially at the cost of human lives.

How does he miss the point?

One of the reasons Sweden made the decision to implement the strategy they did was because they have a comprehensive welfare state that could cushion the blow of getting ill for people - I happen to think their strategy was wrong for other reasons, chiefly that it frontloaded a large number of deaths, which in my view is immoral - but there was at least some sort of a tenuous logic to their strategy given they have a comprehensive welfare state - they believed they could cushion the blow for people who fell ill and that the fall back of their welfare state would help people people to act responsibly, while reducing their economic hit

They were also wrong about the economic hit, suffering the worst of the Nordic countries

That's not surprising - economic health and public health go together, they are not in opposition

Philip Boucher Hayes explained the situation as regards living conditions, sick pay, school class sizes and the health system to Johan Giesecke during the week and all but got him to admit that Sweden's system is not an option for Ireland

In the US you have the worst of all worlds - a shambolic federal pandemic response with no welfare state and terrible working rights for most people, and a disinformation war

This is the point that has become front and centre here in Ireland lately - we have no comprehensive sick pay system - so because many people live in fear of losing their income, they have a vested interest in going to work if if they suspect they may have Covid

The writer's main point is that Sweden's strategy has been hijacked by right-wing politics internationally for nefarious means

He's absolutely right about that

The word "freedom" has been hijacked by the right-wing internationally - in reality it means the opposite of freedom - it means the destruction of regulation and welfare states and the freedom of the ultra-rich to live like kings at the expense of everybody else

They will use literally anything to spin bad faith, fake narratives as propaganda

Being anti-mask is the latest opportunist avenue and hijacking Sweden's Covid strategy for their own ends is another

But they despise everything else about Swedish society

The regime in the US does not care whether even its own supporters live or die, it's a psychopathic, fascist regime which only cares about money, power and immunity from prosecution and is willing to do literally anything and use literally anything to ensure such

So you believe Sweden's Non-restriction policies were compatible with their welfare policies? If so should other welfare nations like Germany, UK, Spain not followed suit?

Also they weren't wrong about the economic hit. They've had a much smaller economic contraction than the EU average.

[trileacman]

Economic contraction in spain Italy France uk are all projected at over 11% for 2020. Sweden and US are projected at about 6 and 7% respectively.

and Germany of course.

Where the lockdown was also less stringent.

[sid waddell]

This thread is well worth reading

https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1309668851387334663

1) As a US citizen in Sweden, I'm disturbed when I see the US right push the "Swedish model" for dealing with COVID19. It's an utterly cynical, disingenuous position that goes far beyond the question of lockdowns and masks, and highlights what's rotten at the core of US society.

2) The US political right are using a misleading vision of Sweden's COVID19 policy to promote a brutal philosophy of savage individualism, fatalism and "freedom from government." The irony of this position is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

3) Sweden's COVID policy hardly a success (6000 dead), but natl. policy can only be understood as inseparable from Sweden's developed welfare state, social system: universal healthcare, paid sick leave, paid leave to care for sick kids, subsidized daycare & pre/after-school care.

4) For many Swedes, social security policies in place mean getting COVID not a crushing financial blow; or, if jobs are lost, the state will help to support you. It's impossible — and frankly stupid — to even try to see Sweden's COVID19 strategy as separated from these policies.

5) So, it's some pretty cynical bullshit for US right-wingers who have, under the banner of "Small Government" and "Liberty," devoted their lives to  crushing universal healthcare and other humane social policies now claim to support the "Swedish model" for tackling COVID19.

6) In pushing US version of "Swedish model" for COVID19 (in other words, w/none of the Swedish healthcare, social programs), the US right is just telling citizens to enjoy their "liberty" without restriction, but if they get sick, spouse gets sick, company goes bust...tough shit.

7) Let's also be clear that even w/Sweden's relatively developed, generous social policies, many here are struggling, and many in low-paying part-time jobs must continue to work even when they suspect they're sick. So, pushing a "Swedish approach" w/even fewer safety nets? Crazy.


9) And we should never let it slip through cracks that in Sweden, just as in US, minorities have been hit disproportionately hard by COVID19, in large part due to relative poverty and the type of employment. Making access to healthcare and social programs all the more important.

A very strange reading of the situation. The fear from a large scale Covid outbreak is not financial ruin for those who are infected but their deaths. The US government is pushing for lower restrictions to prevent a widespread financial crisis that they would be unable/willing to provide social security for those affected.

The situation is the exact reverse in Sweden, a welfare state. Their Covid policy stands in direct conflict with, rather than consistent with their social policies. If anything it would have made more sense for Sweden to employ a widespread lockdown given that they would have committed to supporting businesses/ providing social security etc.

Political right cherry-pick two issues from Sweden — lockdowns, masks — & pitch them as symbols of "freedom." But real freedom comes from not being bankrupted by illness, paying for childcare, sudden unemployment. The right wants you to forget the second half of that equation.

He precisely misses the point here. The US non-restriction policy is promoting economic welfare over the health of its citizens. So they're trying to provide "freedom" from sudden unemployment, bankruptcy etc but potentially at the cost of human lives.

How does he miss the point?

One of the reasons Sweden made the decision to implement the strategy they did was because they have a comprehensive welfare state that could cushion the blow of getting ill for people - I happen to think their strategy was wrong for other reasons, chiefly that it frontloaded a large number of deaths, which in my view is immoral - but there was at least some sort of a tenuous logic to their strategy given they have a comprehensive welfare state - they believed they could cushion the blow for people who fell ill and that the fall back of their welfare state would help people people to act responsibly, while reducing their economic hit

They were also wrong about the economic hit, suffering the worst of the Nordic countries

That's not surprising - economic health and public health go together, they are not in opposition

Philip Boucher Hayes explained the situation as regards living conditions, sick pay, school class sizes and the health system to Johan Giesecke during the week and all but got him to admit that Sweden's system is not an option for Ireland

In the US you have the worst of all worlds - a shambolic federal pandemic response with no welfare state and terrible working rights for most people, and a disinformation war

This is the point that has become front and centre here in Ireland lately - we have no comprehensive sick pay system - so because many people live in fear of losing their income, they have a vested interest in going to work if if they suspect they may have Covid

The writer's main point is that Sweden's strategy has been hijacked by right-wing politics internationally for nefarious means

He's absolutely right about that

The word "freedom" has been hijacked by the right-wing internationally - in reality it means the opposite of freedom - it means the destruction of regulation and welfare states and the freedom of the ultra-rich to live like kings at the expense of everybody else

They will use literally anything to spin bad faith, fake narratives as propaganda

Being anti-mask is the latest opportunist avenue and hijacking Sweden's Covid strategy for their own ends is another

But they despise everything else about Swedish society

The regime in the US does not care whether even its own supporters live or die, it's a psychopathic, fascist regime which only cares about money, power and immunity from prosecution and is willing to do literally anything and use literally anything to ensure such

So you believe Sweden's Non-restriction policies were compatible with their welfare policies? If so should other welfare nations like Germany, UK, Spain not followed suit?

Also they weren't wrong about the economic hit. They've had a much smaller economic contraction than the EU average.

They believed it

And they are correct that the only way you can implement such a policy - if that's what you decide - is with comprehensive welfare

And yes they were wrong abut the economic hit

All the other Nordic countries who locked down, took less of an economic hit than Sweden did

Now, tell me how you think Swedish policy would have worked out with none of the comprehensive welfare supports, ie. with US ones?

We already have a very good idea about this, so that should help you along in your guess

[armaghniac]

Economic contraction in spain Italy France uk are all projected at over 11% for 2020. Sweden and US are projected at about 6 and 7% respectively.

and Germany of course.

Where the lockdown was also less stringent.

Which is the chicken and which is the egg. If you control the spread of the virus then you don't need a hard lockdown. In Italy, things had got out of control in the North and lesser measures were not a choice at that stage.
Lesser measures would have done in most parts of the US too, unlike New York etc. However, they were too greedy and didn't even keep the lesser measures going long enough and so ended up in the mess they are in.

And of course the Chinese economy will grow this year, it did have a lockdown but it got the job done and the economy came back.

[Cunny Funt]

End the week with a high number once more, 430  cases from which 212 was in Dublin.

Weekly numbers for the ROI.

Cases 2,084 (102 more cases than last week but from a lot more testing)

Reported deaths 10 ( same as last week)

In hospital 108 (increase of 26)
In ICU 18 (increase of 1)

[RadioGAAGAA]

And of course the Chinese economy will grow this year, it did have a lockdown but it got the job done and the economy came back.

Yep - fundamentally the quicker you intervene and the heavier that intervention - the better you will be in the long run.


The west at large continue to dither and dilute measures and unfortunately this winter (without any vaccine) is likely to see grim statistics as a result.

[seafoid]

And of course the Chinese economy will grow this year, it did have a lockdown but it got the job done and the economy came back.

Yep - fundamentally the quicker you intervene and the heavier that intervention - the better you will be in the long run.


The west at large continue to dither and dilute measures and unfortunately this winter (without any vaccine) is likely to see grim statistics as a result.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-09-25/us-coronavirus-expert-dr-anthony-fauci-cautiously-optimistic-we-will-have-vaccine-by-christmas

[highorlow]

Looks like a new nasal spray can be developed as a preventative measure. Only going to human trials. Is there no quicker way to test these things quicker?

We have plenty of scum around the world in jails that might want to repent and give something back to the world.

[Jeepers Creepers]

Out of 300 vaccines trialled and only 9 have made it through to human trials. 5 of these are Chinese.

[thebigfella]

Looks like a new nasal spray can be developed as a preventative measure. Only going to human trials. Is there no quicker way to test these things quicker?

We have plenty of scum around the world in jails that might want to repent and give something back to the world.

Jesus Christ 

[armaghniac]

Out of 300 vaccines trialled and only 9 have made it through to human trials. 5 of these are Chinese.

There are 42 vaccines in human trials, with 11 in phase 3 so far. There are also 93 vaccines in pre-clinical animal studies. The Chinese are ahead, they had humans to try it on at an early stage.
It is certainly a record scientific endeavour.

[RadioGAAGAA]

And of course the Chinese economy will grow this year, it did have a lockdown but it got the job done and the economy came back.

Yep - fundamentally the quicker you intervene and the heavier that intervention - the better you will be in the long run.


The west at large continue to dither and dilute measures and unfortunately this winter (without any vaccine) is likely to see grim statistics as a result.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-09-25/us-coronavirus-expert-dr-anthony-fauci-cautiously-optimistic-we-will-have-vaccine-by-christmas

Unfortunately (and somewhat counter intuitively) this could be quite bad timing.

A vaccine available in quantities of a few million this winter could lead to folks largely dismissing measures and going back to normal life thinking "its all right, there is a vaccine now" - but with absolutely no chance of herd immunity being built up due to the insignificant number of vaccinations available, it'd then be a bit of a disaster in terms of virus spread.

Hopefully not of course, but its something you could easily see happening.