Roscommon v Armagh

Started by illdecide, July 02, 2018, 10:06:15 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Rufus T Firefly

Quote from: tonto1888 on July 20, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
I can't understand how any Armagh fan would support Geezer continuing. Galway hurlers had a lot of poor managers over the last 29 years, drawing fans through the wringer again and again but none of them got 4 years plus on the back of such mediocrity. The  problem with serial managerial incompetence is what it does to the spirit of the players.  Armagh should be at the level of Roscommon at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47w3PLgybEA

The players spirits seem to be fine

I would argue that the win against Clare was based on the excellenc team spirit displayed. The McGeeney out brigade will tell you it was down to luck and / or a Clare collapse.

seafoid

Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on July 20, 2018, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 20, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
I can't understand how any Armagh fan would support Geezer continuing. Galway hurlers had a lot of poor managers over the last 29 years, drawing fans through the wringer again and again but none of them got 4 years plus on the back of such mediocrity. The  problem with serial managerial incompetence is what it does to the spirit of the players.  Armagh should be at the level of Roscommon at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47w3PLgybEA

The players spirits seem to be fine

I would argue that the win against Clare was based on the excellenc team spirit displayed. The McGeeney out brigade will tell you it was down to luck and / or a Clare collapse.
Armagh should be reaching the last 8 regularly.
Beating Clare should be something routine for a country like Armagh. 
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Owen Brannigan

Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 11:43:58 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on July 20, 2018, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 20, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
I can't understand how any Armagh fan would support Geezer continuing. Galway hurlers had a lot of poor managers over the last 29 years, drawing fans through the wringer again and again but none of them got 4 years plus on the back of such mediocrity. The  problem with serial managerial incompetence is what it does to the spirit of the players.  Armagh should be at the level of Roscommon at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47w3PLgybEA

The players spirits seem to be fine

I would argue that the win against Clare was based on the excellenc team spirit displayed. The McGeeney out brigade will tell you it was down to luck and / or a Clare collapse.
Armagh should be reaching the last 8 regularly.
Beating Clare should be something routine for a country like Armagh.

If you were old enough like Rufus you would know that beating Clare has always been an achievement for Armagh

tonto1888

Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 11:43:58 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on July 20, 2018, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 20, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
I can't understand how any Armagh fan would support Geezer continuing. Galway hurlers had a lot of poor managers over the last 29 years, drawing fans through the wringer again and again but none of them got 4 years plus on the back of such mediocrity. The  problem with serial managerial incompetence is what it does to the spirit of the players.  Armagh should be at the level of Roscommon at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47w3PLgybEA

The players spirits seem to be fine

I would argue that the win against Clare was based on the excellenc team spirit displayed. The McGeeney out brigade will tell you it was down to luck and / or a Clare collapse.
Armagh should be reaching the last 8 regularly.
Beating Clare should be something routine for a country like Armagh.

Why should we be reaching the last 8 regularly?

Owen Brannigan

There has always been a need for a John the Baptist like management in Armagh, e.g. the two Brian's. Someone to carry on the job of keeping the pot simmering while waiting for the next Messiah to come along and restore the glory days. McGeeney played that part in Kildare and again with Armagh. Unlike some other managers he is a Bovril like character for players, they love him or hate (maybe a bit strong - like Bovril) him.  In both tenures as manager, the players appear to be hanging on his every word and willing to follow him to the end.

Other managers in nearby counties can hold on to their discontented who then snap immediately they leave the group but are willing to conform and play while there. McGeeney is what he is and you accept that or yammer on like Tim.

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 21, 2018, 09:09:33 AM
There has always been a need for a John the Baptist like management in Armagh, e.g. the two Brian's. Someone to carry on the job of keeping the pot simmering while waiting for the next Messiah to come along and restore the glory days. McGeeney played that part in Kildare and again with Armagh. Unlike some other managers he is a Bovril like character for players, they love him or hate (maybe a bit strong - like Bovril) him.  In both tenures as manager, the players appear to be hanging on his every word and willing to follow him to the end.

Other managers in nearby counties can hold on to their discontented who then snap immediately they leave the group but are willing to conform and play while there. McGeeney is what he is and you accept that or yammer on like Tim.

I would agree with a lot of that Owen but the difference is this the 2 Brian's were able to get the best players in the county playing consistently with the team and they actually went and won stuff and competed. Under Geezer Armagh have not pushed on in my opinion. There are many reasons for that, and a lot of them are not his direct fault, but I think when you look at where the county is at and where it could be then it is worrying in my opinion what the next step is. In 4 years there hasn't been an actual championship win. 2 decent runs in the Qualifiers. Out of Division 3 but only at the second time of asking. And year on year the same debate. Yes he is a Bovril type character. I believe he could have an important role to play in the county set up but he is very much the Roy Keane type character. Fort right in his opinions but missing other key elements to make the breakthrough that could be made.

There is a need for root and branch change. I have been saying for years that the tree is being grown for the top
If the leaves downwards when it should be the other way. There should be a review of where the money is being spent on the senior teams and see where some of it can be reallocated to schools and very young underage.  I had a very interesting conversation with a man who is very on the button with these things. Croke Park have to match find any money available for coaching or development projects. How about the clubs, in conjunction with the county, look at appointing coaching officers with Geezer as the 'boss'. 2 North, 2 mid, 2 south. The clubs who provide the finance get access to a coach. Give them a 2 year brief with targets for development. Have a better structure for local blitz's at u12 instead of the ramshackle league that is run with teams having to go outside of the county for blitzes. Have a more competitive schools competition. I was speaking to Diarmuid Marsden recently about a primary school county final we played against each other all those years ago. Those final teams provided something like 10 players who played inter county minor and 4 that played senior!!  Build from the bottom up not top down.

I'm soccer the likes of Belgium did that 15-20 years ago and are consistently producing excellent footballers now. A focused, unified, simple system with proper people in it and proper coaching happening regularly from the kids are 8-9

seafoid

Quote from: tonto1888 on July 21, 2018, 08:44:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 11:43:58 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on July 20, 2018, 09:13:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 20, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 20, 2018, 06:42:45 PM
I can't understand how any Armagh fan would support Geezer continuing. Galway hurlers had a lot of poor managers over the last 29 years, drawing fans through the wringer again and again but none of them got 4 years plus on the back of such mediocrity. The  problem with serial managerial incompetence is what it does to the spirit of the players.  Armagh should be at the level of Roscommon at the very least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47w3PLgybEA

The players spirits seem to be fine

I would argue that the win against Clare was based on the excellenc team spirit displayed. The McGeeney out brigade will tell you it was down to luck and / or a Clare collapse.
Armagh should be reaching the last 8 regularly.
Beating Clare should be something routine for a country like Armagh.

Why should we be reaching the last 8 regularly?
Because what 8 teams are likely to be better than Armagh given the pick ? Dubs, Kerry, maybe Cork, Galway, Mayo and a few from Ulster.
Armagh need a competent manager and a 5 year plan. If Galway could do it so can Armagh
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

imtommygunn

Galway have a very good conveyor belt of talent coming through which only really tyrone, kerry and dublin can match or better. Not many counties have that. Their success now comes of the back of a very good u21 team, a very good corofin team, a few guys who have ploughed away for a few years and built experience and guys who were successful at underage in the past.

Armagh don't have as good as that to pick from. Galway are a "sleeping giant" and not really comparable.

That being said if armagh got their house in order they should be round the top 8.

DuffleKing

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 21, 2018, 10:16:37 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 21, 2018, 09:09:33 AM
There has always been a need for a John the Baptist like management in Armagh, e.g. the two Brian's. Someone to carry on the job of keeping the pot simmering while waiting for the next Messiah to come along and restore the glory days. McGeeney played that part in Kildare and again with Armagh. Unlike some other managers he is a Bovril like character for players, they love him or hate (maybe a bit strong - like Bovril) him.  In both tenures as manager, the players appear to be hanging on his every word and willing to follow him to the end.

Other managers in nearby counties can hold on to their discontented who then snap immediately they leave the group but are willing to conform and play while there. McGeeney is what he is and you accept that or yammer on like Tim.

I would agree with a lot of that Owen but the difference is this the 2 Brian's were able to get the best players in the county playing consistently with the team and they actually went and won stuff and competed. Under Geezer Armagh have not pushed on in my opinion. There are many reasons for that, and a lot of them are not his direct fault, but I think when you look at where the county is at and where it could be then it is worrying in my opinion what the next step is. In 4 years there hasn't been an actual championship win. 2 decent runs in the Qualifiers. Out of Division 3 but only at the second time of asking. And year on year the same debate. Yes he is a Bovril type character. I believe he could have an important role to play in the county set up but he is very much the Roy Keane type character. Fort right in his opinions but missing other key elements to make the breakthrough that could be made.

There is a need for root and branch change. I have been saying for years that the tree is being grown for the top
If the leaves downwards when it should be the other way. There should be a review of where the money is being spent on the senior teams and see where some of it can be reallocated to schools and very young underage.  I had a very interesting conversation with a man who is very on the button with these things. Croke Park have to match find any money available for coaching or development projects. How about the clubs, in conjunction with the county, look at appointing coaching officers with Geezer as the 'boss'. 2 North, 2 mid, 2 south. The clubs who provide the finance get access to a coach. Give them a 2 year brief with targets for development. Have a better structure for local blitz's at u12 instead of the ramshackle league that is run with teams having to go outside of the county for blitzes. Have a more competitive schools competition. I was speaking to Diarmuid Marsden recently about a primary school county final we played against each other all those years ago. Those final teams provided something like 10 players who played inter county minor and 4 that played senior!!  Build from the bottom up not top down.

I'm soccer the likes of Belgium did that 15-20 years ago and are consistently producing excellent footballers now. A focused, unified, simple system with proper people in it and proper coaching happening regularly from the kids are 8-9

Bit in bold is not true. This myth has been propagated by people who misinterpret the agreement Dublin have established for themselves with respect to full time club coaches. That is not in place across the board.

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: DuffleKing on July 21, 2018, 12:47:40 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 21, 2018, 10:16:37 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 21, 2018, 09:09:33 AM
There has always been a need for a John the Baptist like management in Armagh, e.g. the two Brian's. Someone to carry on the job of keeping the pot simmering while waiting for the next Messiah to come along and restore the glory days. McGeeney played that part in Kildare and again with Armagh. Unlike some other managers he is a Bovril like character for players, they love him or hate (maybe a bit strong - like Bovril) him.  In both tenures as manager, the players appear to be hanging on his every word and willing to follow him to the end.

Other managers in nearby counties can hold on to their discontented who then snap immediately they leave the group but are willing to conform and play while there. McGeeney is what he is and you accept that or yammer on like Tim.

I would agree with a lot of that Owen but the difference is this the 2 Brian's were able to get the best players in the county playing consistently with the team and they actually went and won stuff and competed. Under Geezer Armagh have not pushed on in my opinion. There are many reasons for that, and a lot of them are not his direct fault, but I think when you look at where the county is at and where it could be then it is worrying in my opinion what the next step is. In 4 years there hasn't been an actual championship win. 2 decent runs in the Qualifiers. Out of Division 3 but only at the second time of asking. And year on year the same debate. Yes he is a Bovril type character. I believe he could have an important role to play in the county set up but he is very much the Roy Keane type character. Fort right in his opinions but missing other key elements to make the breakthrough that could be made.

There is a need for root and branch change. I have been saying for years that the tree is being grown for the top
If the leaves downwards when it should be the other way. There should be a review of where the money is being spent on the senior teams and see where some of it can be reallocated to schools and very young underage.  I had a very interesting conversation with a man who is very on the button with these things. Croke Park have to match find any money available for coaching or development projects. How about the clubs, in conjunction with the county, look at appointing coaching officers with Geezer as the 'boss'. 2 North, 2 mid, 2 south. The clubs who provide the finance get access to a coach. Give them a 2 year brief with targets for development. Have a better structure for local blitz's at u12 instead of the ramshackle league that is run with teams having to go outside of the county for blitzes. Have a more competitive schools competition. I was speaking to Diarmuid Marsden recently about a primary school county final we played against each other all those years ago. Those final teams provided something like 10 players who played inter county minor and 4 that played senior!!  Build from the bottom up not top down.

I'm soccer the likes of Belgium did that 15-20 years ago and are consistently producing excellent footballers now. A focused, unified, simple system with proper people in it and proper coaching happening regularly from the kids are 8-9

Bit in bold is not true. This myth has been propagated by people who misinterpret the agreement Dublin have established for themselves with respect to full time club coaches. That is not in place across the board.

I'll take your word for it. This person would be involved in coaching and would have a fair idea of what's happening. Maybe he has it wrong then. I still think the main premise of what I say is true. As a county we have 40 odd counties. It may be a worthwhile exercise to have a set up where each club provide £3k per annum to employ 4 -5 full time coaches that go round the local primary schools and the clubs. I could see a club do that quicker then focusing on selling tickets to fund the senior team.

smelmoth

Tim - welcome back. You are like a stalking horse in a Tory Leadership campaign. You won't win but your initial move might trigger something. Rufus might not always answer the direct question but read your own posts and you will see your own record.

Rufus - club delegates are more of s politburo than a democracy in many cases. Though I suspect your argument is really about calling out key board warriors.

Tim - you can't isolate the McGeeney factor from style of play, cost, competitiveness etc when analysing attendances no matter how many people you claim to have spoken to. Rufus is absolutely correct to say you are all over the place.

I understand that Tim is correct in saying that Tony is wrapped up with Mayo and that this was decided a year ago. What his plans are I don't know but "heavily linked" means nothing unless CornUladh02 is looking a job on Sky Sports News.

Rufus is correct in that the closing minutes if the Clare game demonstrated mental strength and togetherness. If we are attributing that to management (and I don't know who to attribute it to) then we must also look at the first 65 mins and attribute the causes of that to something

BCB is correct. The changes must come from the bottom up. That means the money must go to bottom up