More Dissident-Republican Activity

[Milltown Row2]

Peace in a United Ireland.

Yes, an end to British interference in Irish affairs and an accountable, impartial police service.

Thanks for caring about my wellbeing. It's impossible to keep everyone happy but justice and freedom from harassment/ interference would help. Why should it be a role reversal - nationalists/ republicans coming as they have from a history of injustice have repeatedly held out the hand of frienship to the unionist/ loyalist side -  catholic, protestant and dissenter / green, white and gold.

What about my questions, why were you stopped? Why are innocent people getting stopped now?  Should we turn a blind eye because we are not the "others"?

We were stopped because of the area i lived in, (Falls road) the time, being the 70's 80's early 90's because the threat to police and Army was very high. kids as young as ten were carrying guns for the RA, mothers were carrying guns and bombs while pushing the pram.

You are kidding yourself if you don't think the UDA/UVF won't be happy if Ireland is re-united. Bombs going off left right and center. The the RA will have to defend us because they will be taking out legitimate targets (anyone they please) and so it will continue. Has history taught you anything?

As long as people feel that they are being 'occupied' then there will never be peace in Ireland. What we have now is better than what i was brought up in. 

As for the history of injustice, that's balls to, I'd say we are as intolerant to foreign nationalist as anyone else. When Celtic and Ranger play (two Scottish teams) we have riots in interface areas. As you have said we can't please everyone so accept what we have, and get on with living. life's very short and even shorter if you end up killed over a piece of land.

When you go down the political way you'll get a better feel of who will vote for your views, if they can get into roles within the community then surely that's a better way than whats happening?

[TransitVanMan]

Yes Milltown, you were stopped because of the area you were living in and a perception on behalf of the RUC/Brits that you were a threat.  It didn't mean you were a threat, and if you weren't, your basic human rights were being violated.  Do the rights of those being stopped today not matter, are these erstwhile comrades ("others") lesser beings because they do not agree with your political viewpoint.

With regard to the UVF/UDA, they have always been controlled by the Brits.  Why would the Brits want them to start a campaign when they have already secured the defeat of the republican movement.

As long as poeple feel they are occupied??? What the hell does that mean?  Are we supposd to pretend that there are no Brit soldiers here anymore, no MI5, no collusion, harassment, internment (in whatever guise) etc etc?

There are riots when West Ham play Milwall, Inter play AC and so on.  There will always be hooligans who join up behind the colours but you can't paint everone with the same brush.  There is life outside Belfast you know.

[The Iceman]

There will always be hooligans who join up behind the colours

Never a truer word said......

[theskull1]

There will always be hooligans let join up behind the colours

how true is that statement and what %'s are we talking about do you think?

[The Iceman]

Its hard to say skull.
I would imagine a lot of boys are involved with genuine reasons but most for their own gain, cloaked in the Green White and Orange.  Being a dissident brings with it money, status and power. Theres manys a young man in Ireland or anywhere else in the world who would adapt whatever agenda you wanted them to for these things.

Take Armagh for example. The majority of dissidents are not former PIRA but new, younger lads who like the money, status and power. Take all that away and how many of them would have been involved in the armed campaign years ago..... They're all for a United Ireland if they get rich along the way.......

to your point though these thugs are being "let" do this. Not just by the guys who have always been involved but by the local communities.

[Milltown Row2]

Yes Milltown, you were stopped because of the area you were living in and a perception on behalf of the RUC/Brits that you were a threat.  It didn't mean you were a threat, and if you weren't, your basic human rights were being violated.  Do the rights of those being stopped today not matter, are these erstwhile comrades ("others") lesser beings because they do not agree with your political viewpoint.

With regard to the UVF/UDA, they have always been controlled by the Brits.  Why would the Brits want them to start a campaign when they have already secured the defeat of the republican movement.
As long as poeple feel they are occupied??? What the hell does that mean?  Are we supposd to pretend that there are no Brit soldiers here anymore, no MI5, no collusion, harassment, internment (in whatever guise) etc etc?

There are riots when West Ham play Milwall, Inter play AC and so on.  There will always be hooligans who join up behind the colours but you can't paint everone with the same brush.  There is life outside Belfast you know.

So what your saying is that when we get this All Ireland, the Brits wont need the UVF/UDA and they will just go away? Brilliant!! you talk about me being 'sold' by the feel good factor of the peace process, but think its you that is being sold. Unable to think for yourself, you use the same old rhetoric in a time when most people have moved on and willing to accept that if a time comes through the vote that we will enter an united Ireland peacefully and without bloodshed.

The new MLA in West Belfast is an ex hunger striker (55 days) twice in jail serving 20 odd years he more than anyone is willing to accept that the ballot box is the way forward. are you saying he is wrong to go the way he has chosen? I'd say he'd have a better understanding of the current/past of Ireland to make a judgement.

[Rossfan]

-  catholic, protestant and dissenter / green, white and gold.

I think you'll find it's Green , White and ORANGE

[TransitVanMan]

You are right RF, but it's always been gold for the shinners.

[DownFanatic]

There has been a very high and visible presence of PSNI in South East Down in the past two days.

[Aoise]

TVM I accept the fact you are not happy with the status quo, I also accept the fact that you feel that SF have sold out and are selling us all a pup.  You say that we are buying this 'lie' just because we follow the line that 'I'm alright Jack'!  But here's how I see it...

Current dissident representatives (whoever they are but when they do speak) portray nothing but empty dogma - no suggestions, just mindless actions that are pissing off their own community more than they are the Brits.

We are a politically mature nation, no-one is ignorant of political reality and if you ask me, that is where dissidents can never be credible.  To simply say we are believing a lie is not only patronising to the extreme but also ignores the fact that Irish people are able to analyse and evaluate political argument for themselves, we've had to over the years.  So methinks its your own lie that you are propagating in the hope that enough uneducated politically immature young men hear you and start believing you, but that is quite dangerous, as we all know what the consequences of that can be.

I heard Marian Price on Nolan the other morning and I despaired.  Not one political point could she make other than she felt that she and dissidents had the right to protect the sovereignty of Ireland, she then scuttled off because she had nothing else worthwhile to say.  Now I am a republican, have been all my life and I understand that people are disillusioned, however I'm going to ask you a question - What is 'Ireland'?  In my opinion, Ireland is a nation of people who come from many backgrounds, just as it was in 1798, the Republic was foreseen to be inclusive of all and the sovereignty of its people was to take cogniscence of that.  It is not for a small group of people to feel that they have ultimate power over the will of the people because not only is it removing that sovereignty from them it also removes what Republicanism should truly stand for - The people make a nation, not how many yards of soil is in it.  The IRA had the support of its own people which in turn gave them sovereignty to protect them - dissidents don't!

A United Ireland will happen, of that I am sure.  But there are many in our society who are choosing not to see the bigger picture and are just ploughing ahead with mindless attacks that the British can ignore and just continue to remove the rights of their own people.  Young children, who cannot articulate political maturity because they themselves are not mature enough to analyse it, are the footmen of those who should know better.

So instead of thinking that everyone else is ignorant apart from the dissidents, maybe TVM you should not underestimate other peoples intelligence, but underlying everything that dissidents do is the mistaken belief that they know best - how much sovereignty are we allowed from that conclusion then as Irish people?

[lynchbhoy]

great post and spot on Aoise !

[glens abu]

TVM I accept the fact you are not happy with the status quo, I also accept the fact that you feel that SF have sold out and are selling us all a pup.  You say that we are buying this 'lie' just because we follow the line that 'I'm alright Jack'!  But here's how I see it...

Current dissident representatives (whoever they are but when they do speak) portray nothing but empty dogma - no suggestions, just mindless actions that are pissing off their own community more than they are the Brits.

We are a politically mature nation, no-one is ignorant of political reality and if you ask me, that is where dissidents can never be credible.  To simply say we are believing a lie is not only patronising to the extreme but also ignores the fact that Irish people are able to analyse and evaluate political argument for themselves, we've had to over the years.  So methinks its your own lie that you are propagating in the hope that enough uneducated politically immature young men hear you and start believing you, but that is quite dangerous, as we all know what the consequences of that can be.

I heard Marian Price on Nolan the other morning and I despaired.  Not one political point could she make other than she felt that she and dissidents had the right to protect the sovereignty of Ireland, she then scuttled off because she had nothing else worthwhile to say.  Now I am a republican, have been all my life and I understand that people are disillusioned, however I'm going to ask you a question - What is 'Ireland'?  In my opinion, Ireland is a nation of people who come from many backgrounds, just as it was in 1798, the Republic was foreseen to be inclusive of all and the sovereignty of its people was to take cogniscence of that.  It is not for a small group of people to feel that they have ultimate power over the will of the people because not only is it removing that sovereignty from them it also removes what Republicanism should truly stand for - The people make a nation, not how many yards of soil is in it.  The IRA had the support of its own people which in turn gave them sovereignty to protect them - dissidents don't!

A United Ireland will happen, of that I am sure.  But there are many in our society who are choosing not to see the bigger picture and are just ploughing ahead with mindless attacks that the British can ignore and just continue to remove the rights of their own people.  Young children, who cannot articulate political maturity because they themselves are not mature enough to analyse it, are the footmen of those who should know better.

So instead of thinking that everyone else is ignorant apart from the dissidents, maybe TVM you should not underestimate other peoples intelligence, but underlying everything that dissidents do is the mistaken belief that they know best - how much sovereignty are we allowed from that conclusion then as Irish people?

Excellent post Aoise but I fear it my fall on deaf ears as TVM still thinks he is standing on the cavehill in 1798 and cant move on,but I suppose we have to keep trying.Well done.

[TransitVanMan]

TVM I accept the fact you are not happy with the status quo, I also accept the fact that you feel that SF have sold out and are selling us all a pup.  You say that we are buying this 'lie' just because we follow the line that 'I'm alright Jack'!  But here's how I see it...

Current dissident representatives (whoever they are but when they do speak) portray nothing but empty dogma - no suggestions, just mindless actions that are pissing off their own community more than they are the Brits.

I have already stated that not all so called dissidents/ detractors are in favour of an armed response/ violence. Have you ever listened to/ read Anthony McIntyre, Gerry McGeough, Laurence O'Neill etc. Alternative analysis is out there for those who wish to take their heads out of the sand.

We are a politically mature nation, no-one is ignorant of political reality and if you ask me, that is where dissidents can never be credible.  To simply say we are believing a lie is not only patronising to the extreme but also ignores the fact that Irish people are able to analyse and evaluate political argument for themselves.

I am not speaking of a nation, I am referring to SF supporters.  The same sheep who Martin McGuiness referred to when he asserted that their support base was the "most sophisticated in Western Europe". He would later claim that the electoral process of registration was too complicated for these political geniuses.

What is 'Ireland'?  In my opinion, Ireland is a nation of people who come from many backgrounds, just as it was in 1798, the Republic was foreseen to be inclusive of all and the sovereignty of its people was to take cogniscence of that.  It is not for a small group of people to feel that they have ultimate power over the will of the people because not only is it removing that sovereignty from them it also removes what Republicanism should truly stand for - The people make a nation, not how many yards of soil is in it.  The IRA had the support of its own people which in turn gave them sovereignty to protect them - dissidents don't!.

So are you saying that the dissidents don't have the support of their own people.  Who were the PIRAs own people, who are the RIRAs, CIRAs, ONHs, INLAs, OIRAs own people.

History tells us that support for armed campaigns has always been poor in the early stages of the campaign.  Sometimes it increases eg 1969 and sometimes if doesn't eg 1956.

How can you speak of sovereignty yet back political institutions and a process which fail to tackle the issue of Irish Sovereignty. A process which guarantees a Unionist veto, ensures an internal Six-county settlement and prohibits the probability of an end to partition

A United Ireland will happen, of that I am sure.  But there are many in our society who are choosing not to see the bigger picture and are just ploughing ahead with mindless attacks that the British can ignore and just continue to remove the rights of their own people.  Young children, who cannot articulate political maturity because they themselves are not mature enough to analyse it, are the footmen of those who should know better.

It is virtually impossible to find anybody outside Sinn Fein itself willing to claim that a united Ireland is on the cards. The rhetoric of a united Ireland 'always in the process' does not gel with SFs endorsement of British state strategies for the management of Northern Ireland. Adams and McGuinness, should they live unti they are 80, will die British citizens in a British run Northern Ireland.

[Aoise]

TVM - without meaning to be rude, as that is not my intention, I am not going to get into an argument with you as I think its obvious if you quote both Gerry McGeough and Anthony McIntire to me, I understand what I am dealing with and to be honest if thats the best theorists that dissident republicanism can come up with then I feel it is hopeless.

Just to say this, if you are comparing now with 1969, and are hoping for future support from your own community based on historical comparison, that is where you fail because contrary to what you may think, a united ireland in 1969 was not the main motivational factor as to why the IRA garnered community support, it was because those people were being slaughtered, demonised and socially, politically and economically battered into the ground.  Take a look around you TVM, conditions have dictated that people are happy enough to wait for a time when we can take the high moral ground and join our people together constitutionally and politically, and guess what, we're not the ones slaughtering and demonising back, isn't that great unless its what some people really get their kicks out of.

My children speak their native tongue fluently, they are as confident in their Irish cultural and political identity as anyone born below a border, would you like to know why, it is because their parents are as confident in this also.  I do not need the removal of a border to tell me that I am more Irish, I could not be so even though it is ultimately what I desire.  I feel TVM contrary to your assertions, that too many people need the removal of a constitutional border to affirm their Irishness, pointing towards a lack of confidence in it in the first place.  I think some internal analysis is necessary, before national and political evaluation can take place!

[theskull1]

Good post again Aoise.

Dissidents are looking to start a war that 99.999% don't want all for their fanciful utopian notion of a free ireland. I'm sure in smoke filled sculleries they've discussed how a few decent attrocities perputrated by themuns (whoever they are) on usuns might bring a few more into the fight if they rile them enough. A price worth paying for this picture postcard land of shaleighleigh and shamrock