More Dissident-Republican Activity

[sheamy]

The first is that I do not have enough reliable information about exactly what is going on inside Maghaberry

No-one, not least the Prison Officers themselves, want to see unnecessary strip-searching carried out where it can be avoided

You know nothing when it suits you but plenty when it does

[Evil Genius]

Poor Ulick and Nally are still trying to come to terms with Marty McG condemning this killing and all behind it.
They are obviously not as good at back somersaulting as their leaders 

Rossfan, unless you have something useful to contribute you really should keep quiet while the adults are talking. Good lad.

For someone who has so much to say on this thread Donagh Ulick, you are strangely reticent when it comes to answering the (one-word answer) questions which I have now posed to you three times (#724, #727, #742).

Anyhow, before I begin to feel compelled to deduce for myself your answers, I'll give you another opportunity:

So assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct [in your assertion that this killing was nothing to do with any 'Free Ireland' campaign], do you consider the murder of  this man to be a justifiable escalation of the prisons campaign?

And what would be your reaction if some Prison Officer decided to murder a prisoner in Maghaberry, so as to "even up the score?

[LeoMc]

What odds on Colin Duffy being inside Antrim barracks by lunchtime?

Not quite lunchtime, but not far off it, apparently.

So what time do the Lurgan riots commence?

[Ulick]

What is the problem in Maghaberry?  Bad reception on their Sky TV?

Blog from SDLP member Emmet Doyle

When I thought I couldn't be shocked:

Last Thursday I again found myself in the bleak surroundings of Roe House, Maghaberry Prison. Pat Ramsey and I went to visit some of the men, including Gerry McGeough. I thought that the shell-chocking effect of the place had hit me hard my first few visits, and that I couldn't be shocked any further. Boy was I mistaken.

Usually, we enter Roe at landing four, and enter the Recreation Room to meet individuals and groups. It is a much larger, cleaner and more modern space. Akin, strangely, to my old school canteen. Not this time. We were led by the SO upstairs, to Roe 3 as the Officers and external staff were cleaning the floor on Roe 4, as a result of the on-going protest, and given it was early in the morning, the stench was almost overpowering.

At the foot of the stairs were bags and bags of Acro - the organic absorbent compound used to soak up urine on the floors, which is then hoovered up. As we descended, the clean, modern facade of Roe began to fade away. What I can only describe as a total mess, was piled up outside a cleaners store just before the security gate. An iron, cables, it was like someone had flytipped in the middle of the hall. Granted, they were all on a shelf, which I could spot after about ten seconds of looking, but this is supposed to be a Category A facility where human beings were held, it was a total travesty.

At the top of the stairs and through the first door, we had to wait until the gate was opened by Officers clad in CSI-white overalls, walkie-talkies and batons. Once on the landing, we were led to the "classroom". I use inverted commas, primarily because there is no way on earth the room we were led to could be said to be a classroom. Other than the electronic whiteboard on the wall and the whiteboard on the floor at the back of the room with Irish on it, the only other thing that was in the room was dirt.

The desks must have been brought in from Long Kesh, they were so old. The computers at the back of the room, though they looked relatively modern, were covered in cobwebs and debris. On the wall was a canvass picture - of a red telephone box and Big Ben - ironic, I thought.

We met Gerry first, as always in good spirits and friendly, despite the obvious hardship he has endured. We all spoke for about 40 minutes, then we met a few other men, all who raised issues about the primary issue coming out of Maghaberry at present - healthcare.

That is a conversation for another day. After the meetings had ended, we emerged from the cave which was deemed a classroom, and were once again on the landing, smell and spray [which has brought me out in a rash again this week] right in our faces. It was lunchtime, and the Officers set about going to give the men their plastic covered food.

Pat set off down the right side of Roe, seeking out two opened cells at the bottom of the wing - one cleaned, one dirty. I set out down the left side, seeking out the new machine that was being used below to clean the cells, which had been causing annoyance to both staff and prisoners as it was used in conjunction with a diesel generator, and the fumes in such an encolsed area were not pleasant.

I couldn't get downstairs, but I asked one of the officers to go down and see if he could get me the name of the machine, its make, serial number, any markings on it. He re-appeared a few minutes later, but with no information. I wasn't leaving without it.

Pat came back up the landing from one of the dirty cells, shaking his head. I had caught a glimpse of the cell on way down to see if I could get downstairs, and would be lying if I said I wasn't physically afraid of going to look into it.

When we were 'spun out' of the landing [the process whereby one officer has to radio another officer in another part of the building to release the turnstyles to let us out] we went back downstairs, though locked back from the landing on Roe 4. I asked to see the SO, to get the information I had sought about this machine, while making notes about the cleaning products and absorbent material being used for the protest cleanup. Again, no joy.

Surprisingly, and I have to give credit where it is due - one of the external workers, about my age, came right up to the gate and asked what I was looking for - I repeated, the name, serial number, model of the new cleaner - and he came back a few minutes later with the information on a post-it.

As we left, escorted by an Officer to the exit of the compound, that feeling of not wanting to leave but impatient to get out of the harrowing building again visited me, and Pat also, as it always did. As we walked up the driveway towards the main gate, the follow-up plans flowed, as they always did, what was next to address the issues raised, which family members did we need to phone.

Let no-one tell you that the men there, and indeed all prisoners regardless of colour, creed or nationality have no-one standing up for them in the Assembly - because we left the Quakers after a near two-hour visit to Roe and after getting our first food of the day (and toilet break given we are not permitted to use facilities in the prison) and drove straight to Parliament Buildings to address what we could from there.

I know that eight or nine Deputies are to visit Roe within the coming weeks - something made possible by the changing of prison rules that we had worked on for months to allow TDs equal access to Northern prisons as MLAs and MPs have. That will be important for all in Roe - to know that honourable men and women North and South have not forgotten.

I'll finish by saying the intense itching in the car to Stormont and the rash and boils underneath my beard following the visit as a result of the spray, have now ceased, but I don't know how they do it.

Never forget

[Evil Genius]

The first is that I do not have enough reliable information about exactly what is going on inside Maghaberry

You know nothing when it suits you but plenty when it does

I gave as honest, open and comprehensive an answer as I could.

It is telling that you decline to "play the ball" and instead revert to "playing the man".

No-one, not least the Prison Officers themselves, want to see unnecessary strip-searching carried out where it can be avoided

You question my assertion, above.

Does that mean you believe Prison Officers enjoy going to work each day in the knowledge that they have to carry out such disgusting and degrading duties?

[stew]

So if [Nally] does condemn the killing of the guard you wont believe him anyway?? why should he bother then?

If and when he tells me that he condemns it, I will respond as to whether I accept his condemnation or not.
Then everyone else may judge for themselves which of us, if either, is being truthful, consistent and sincere on this matter.

I have a question or two for you, do you think it is right to have these prisoners subjected to body searches multiple times daily, and do you think that since the equipment is there to eradicate the need for such searches, the guards no longer need to do such searches??

Finally, do you think it immoral that an agreement was reached two years ago to use machines instead of degrading these men and as of now they are not being universally used in prisons in the north?

I find it difficult to answer those two questions in simple terms, for two reasons.

The first is that I do not have enough reliable information about exactly what is going on inside Maghaberry. Nor am I prepared to accept at face value the propaganda over it put about by the prisoners in the jail, nor their supporters outside, including it would seem, on this site.

The second is more a matter of judgement than fact. No-one, not least the Prison Officers themselves, want to see unnecessary strip-searching carried out where it can be avoided. But there undoubtedly are prison visitors who would entirely voluntarily smuggle weapons etc to very dangerous prisoners, who themselves would have no qualms in using them to kill other prisoners or Prison Officers. Therefore it is these people (visitors and prisoners) who are ultimately responsible for full body searches having to be carried out.

Which leads on to the next question, that of using machines to conduct the searches. I have no idea how efficient or practical these machines are. Assuming they can do the job at least as accurately as humans then they should be introduced as quickly as feasible. However, should there be any doubt about this, then the safety of Prison Officers and Prisoners must take priority over the dignity of visitors.

Finally, whatever the ins-and-outs of the Agreement, and whether it was reneged upon etc, this matter is the responsibility of the Prisons Minister, David Forde. And whatever else he may be, I assume him to be a decent, humane man, who is not instinctively hostile to Republican prisoners. Nor do I believe he would 'play games' on so serious a matter as this.

Therefore I cannot give a definitive answer to either of your questions.

I can like you, however, condemn without reservation the foul murder of the Prison Officer yesterday.

Oh that everyone else on here could do the same...

EG, that is a well thought out response, measured and to be honest you shoulod be running for office, on other threads you have no problem jumping to conclusions when it suits you? look at your stance on  Finucane for example, you have absolutely no problem calling him a terrorist, no measured response there.

Let me help you with the facts, a simple google search will tell you all you need to know about these machines and what they are capable of, takes the guesswork out of the equation don't you think?

Second, why can you not answer the second question, an agreement was reached and the PO have failed to implement the agreement, is that immoral or not given the power of google you have at your fingertips?

Finally, if anyone can condone the murder of this Prison officer they are sick in the head, there is no excuse for his execution and now we have another family who is needlessly mourning the loss of a loved one at the hands of despicable cnuts who have no right to be a part of society!

[Evil Genius]

Never forget

Have you forgotten #724, #727, #742, #772, Donagh Ulick?

So assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct [in your assertion that this killing was nothing to do with any 'Free Ireland' campaign], do you consider the murder of  this man to be a justifiable escalation of the prisons campaign?

And what would be your reaction if some Prison Officer decided to murder a prisoner in Maghaberry, so as to "even up the score?

Why the reluctance to answer what are simple, straightforward questions? 

[stew]

The first is that I do not have enough reliable information about exactly what is going on inside Maghaberry

No-one, not least the Prison Officers themselves, want to see unnecessary strip-searching carried out where it can be avoided

You know nothing when it suits you but plenty when it does

Well said Sheamy, this guy should be running for office as a DUP candidate for East Belfast 

[Maguire01]

What is the problem in Maghaberry?  Bad reception on their Sky TV?

Blog from SDLP member Emmet Doyle

When I thought I couldn't be shocked:

Last Thursday I again found myself in the bleak surroundings of Roe House, Maghaberry Prison. Pat Ramsey and I went to visit some of the men, including Gerry McGeough. I thought that the shell-chocking effect of the place had hit me hard my first few visits, and that I couldn't be shocked any further. Boy was I mistaken.

Usually, we enter Roe at landing four, and enter the Recreation Room to meet individuals and groups. It is a much larger, cleaner and more modern space. Akin, strangely, to my old school canteen. Not this time. We were led by the SO upstairs, to Roe 3 as the Officers and external staff were cleaning the floor on Roe 4, as a result of the on-going protest, and given it was early in the morning, the stench was almost overpowering.

At the foot of the stairs were bags and bags of Acro - the organic absorbent compound used to soak up urine on the floors, which is then hoovered up. As we descended, the clean, modern facade of Roe began to fade away. What I can only describe as a total mess, was piled up outside a cleaners store just before the security gate. An iron, cables, it was like someone had flytipped in the middle of the hall. Granted, they were all on a shelf, which I could spot after about ten seconds of looking, but this is supposed to be a Category A facility where human beings were held, it was a total travesty.

At the top of the stairs and through the first door, we had to wait until the gate was opened by Officers clad in CSI-white overalls, walkie-talkies and batons. Once on the landing, we were led to the "classroom". I use inverted commas, primarily because there is no way on earth the room we were led to could be said to be a classroom. Other than the electronic whiteboard on the wall and the whiteboard on the floor at the back of the room with Irish on it, the only other thing that was in the room was dirt.

The desks must have been brought in from Long Kesh, they were so old. The computers at the back of the room, though they looked relatively modern, were covered in cobwebs and debris. On the wall was a canvass picture - of a red telephone box and Big Ben - ironic, I thought.

We met Gerry first, as always in good spirits and friendly, despite the obvious hardship he has endured. We all spoke for about 40 minutes, then we met a few other men, all who raised issues about the primary issue coming out of Maghaberry at present - healthcare.

That is a conversation for another day. After the meetings had ended, we emerged from the cave which was deemed a classroom, and were once again on the landing, smell and spray [which has brought me out in a rash again this week] right in our faces. It was lunchtime, and the Officers set about going to give the men their plastic covered food.

Pat set off down the right side of Roe, seeking out two opened cells at the bottom of the wing - one cleaned, one dirty. I set out down the left side, seeking out the new machine that was being used below to clean the cells, which had been causing annoyance to both staff and prisoners as it was used in conjunction with a diesel generator, and the fumes in such an encolsed area were not pleasant.

I couldn't get downstairs, but I asked one of the officers to go down and see if he could get me the name of the machine, its make, serial number, any markings on it. He re-appeared a few minutes later, but with no information. I wasn't leaving without it.

Pat came back up the landing from one of the dirty cells, shaking his head. I had caught a glimpse of the cell on way down to see if I could get downstairs, and would be lying if I said I wasn't physically afraid of going to look into it.

When we were 'spun out' of the landing [the process whereby one officer has to radio another officer in another part of the building to release the turnstyles to let us out] we went back downstairs, though locked back from the landing on Roe 4. I asked to see the SO, to get the information I had sought about this machine, while making notes about the cleaning products and absorbent material being used for the protest cleanup. Again, no joy.

Surprisingly, and I have to give credit where it is due - one of the external workers, about my age, came right up to the gate and asked what I was looking for - I repeated, the name, serial number, model of the new cleaner - and he came back a few minutes later with the information on a post-it.

As we left, escorted by an Officer to the exit of the compound, that feeling of not wanting to leave but impatient to get out of the harrowing building again visited me, and Pat also, as it always did. As we walked up the driveway towards the main gate, the follow-up plans flowed, as they always did, what was next to address the issues raised, which family members did we need to phone.

Let no-one tell you that the men there, and indeed all prisoners regardless of colour, creed or nationality have no-one standing up for them in the Assembly - because we left the Quakers after a near two-hour visit to Roe and after getting our first food of the day (and toilet break given we are not permitted to use facilities in the prison) and drove straight to Parliament Buildings to address what we could from there.

I know that eight or nine Deputies are to visit Roe within the coming weeks - something made possible by the changing of prison rules that we had worked on for months to allow TDs equal access to Northern prisons as MLAs and MPs have. That will be important for all in Roe - to know that honourable men and women North and South have not forgotten.

I'll finish by saying the intense itching in the car to Stormont and the rash and boils underneath my beard following the visit as a result of the spray, have now ceased, but I don't know how they do it.

Never forget

Am I reading this right - the problem is as a result of the prisoners' protest?

[stew]

Never forget

Have you forgotten #724, #727, #742, #772, Donagh Ulick?

So assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct [in your assertion that this killing was nothing to do with any 'Free Ireland' campaign], do you consider the murder of  this man to be a justifiable escalation of the prisons campaign?

And what would be your reaction if some Prison Officer decided to murder a prisoner in Maghaberry, so as to "even up the score?

Why the reluctance to answer what are simple, straightforward questions? 

I have to assume he condones it, if he didnt I am sure he would have the intestinal fortitude to say why!

Now why do you flip flop when it suits you, why do you refuse to jump to conclusions when it suits you?

Finally, remember the anniversary thread........................... you forgot to mention that the Miami Showband killings on the anniversary thread you started!, newsflash, both atrocities happened on the same day/different years!

[Evil Genius]

EG, that is a well thought out response, measured and to be honest you shoulod be running for office, on other threads you have no problem jumping to conclusions when it suits you? look at your stance on  Finucane for example, you have absolutely no problem calling him a terrorist, no measured response there.

Re Finucane, I have very good reason for believing that he was the Provos' "in-house lawyer" (so-to-speak). And whilst I don't expect people here to take that at face value, nor care if they don't, that informs my attitude towards him and his murder*.
As for Maghaberry, that is not so straightforward a topic (for me, at any rate).

* - Which I am quite happy to condemn, btw.

Let me help you with the facts, a simple google search will tell you all you need to know about these machines and what they are capable of, takes the guesswork out of the equation don't you think?

Second, why can you not answer the second question, an agreement was reached and the PO have failed to implement the agreement, is that immoral or not given the power of google you have at your fingertips?

Ah right, a few minutes Googling, and this whole thing could be cleared up just like that.

Have to made this suggestion to David Forde?

Or do you not trust or accept that he might want to get this sorted in a fair, prompt and efficient manner?

Finally, if anyone can condone the murder of this Prison officer they are sick in the head, there is no excuse for his execution and now we have another family who is needlessly mourning the loss of a loved one at the hands of despicable cnuts who have no right to be a part of society!

I'm pleased that we can at least agree on this.

But assuming the Maghaberry dispute were resolved, I still can't help wondering whether the Dissidents [sic], both inside and outside the jail, would then accept that Prison Officers were no longer 'legitimate targets' [sic], despite their still being part of the infamous 'British War Machine' etc etc etc?

(That's a rhetorical question, btw, and I think I know my own answer to it in any case)

[Evil Genius]

The first is that I do not have enough reliable information about exactly what is going on inside Maghaberry

No-one, not least the Prison Officers themselves, want to see unnecessary strip-searching carried out where it can be avoided

You know nothing when it suits you but plenty when it does

Well said Sheamy, this guy should be running for office as a DUP candidate for East Belfast 

I'd as soon represent SF as I would the DUP.

Mind you, the way they spend all their time f**king each other in Stormont, I don't suppose it would make a huge degree of difference...

[stew]

The first is that I do not have enough reliable information about exactly what is going on inside Maghaberry

No-one, not least the Prison Officers themselves, want to see unnecessary strip-searching carried out where it can be avoided

You know nothing when it suits you but plenty when it does

Well said Sheamy, this guy should be running for office as a DUP candidate for East Belfast 

I'd as soon represent SF as I would the DUP.

Mind you, the way they spend all their time f**king each other in Stormont, I don't suppose it would make a huge degree of difference...

That made me laugh...............................now, how can you justify your stance in not answering my questions based on not enough reliable information on whats going on inside our prisons yet have such a lowly opinion of Finucane? do you know something the rest of the people that reside in the wee six don't know? or do you know jack shit on that score and throw derogatory names at a dead man with absolutely no proof?

[Evil Genius]

Never forget

Have you forgotten #724, #727, #742, #772, Donagh Ulick?

So assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct [in your assertion that this killing was nothing to do with any 'Free Ireland' campaign], do you consider the murder of  this man to be a justifiable escalation of the prisons campaign?

And what would be your reaction if some Prison Officer decided to murder a prisoner in Maghaberry, so as to "even up the score?

Why the reluctance to answer what are simple, straightforward questions? 

I have to assume he condones it, if he didnt I am sure he would have the intestinal fortitude to say why!

Condones, even supports it?

Now why do you flip flop when it suits you, why do you refuse to jump to conclusions when it suits you?

Finally, remember the anniversary thread........................... you forgot to mention that the Miami Showband killings on the anniversary thread you started!, newsflash, both atrocities happened on the same day/different years!

When an issue seems straightforward to me (eg Finucane), then I am happy to express a definitive opinion.

Just as when an issue is not straightforward (eg Maghaberry), I decline to do so.

You may call that "flip-flopping" if you like, but I call it consistent.

Finally, remember the anniversary thread........................... you forgot to mention that the Miami Showband killings on the anniversary thread you started!, newsflash, both atrocities happened on the same day/different years!

I hardly need to remind members of this Board of an atrocity like Miami, nor could there be any ambivalence or reluctance to condemn it etc.

Whereas an atrocity like Kingsmill, no more or less heinous, is much less likely to be remembered on this Board, as well as being less than roundly to be condemned by one or two individual posters.

In that sense they are different.

But in every other sense they are the same evil, entirely unjustifiable atrocities. Consequently I have absolutely no problem in condemning them both without reservation. Further, I would like to see all the perpetrators of both, from whatever quarter and wearing whatever uniform etc, arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment, with life to mean life.

P.S. Actually, I have just remembered one other difference. Three people were tried and convicted of the Miami murders, and given very heavy sentences. Unfortunately, they had to be released early under the terms of the GFA. Still, the principle remains exactly the same.

[Ulick]

I have to assume he condones it, if he didnt I am sure he would have the intestinal fortitude to say why!

I'm sure no one needs reminding, but just in case: