Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[imtommygunn]

Sid as an aside. Tg4 Monday is the best Gaa show to watch. You will see more joe McDonagh games, more underage games. The Sunday game is full of analysis by people who generally aren't very good at analysing.

Also on division one benefiting teams Westmeath and down had big falls from division one. Derry too. Cavan are an example I reluctantly use too as they went from one to three in two years

Wexford had the best team of my life in that period. Marty Forde, lyng and now they have ben Brianna who is too good for division four but not a team. Limerick used to be better but John galvin's only come along every so often, likewise Marty force's. Sligo should not be division four and Laois should be nowhere near it. Neither would be if their house was in order.

The hurling for me undoubtedly proves the improvement in standard from these more competitive games.

[Rossfan]

If the Tailteann Cup had been played this year it would have involved
Antrim, Derry, Fermanagh
Sligo, Leitrim, London*
Limerick Waterford
Wicklow, Wexford, Carlow, Offaly, Longford and Louth.

*If Covid hadnt happened. NY want to play in it too.

[sid waddell]

And again. A load of stuff with no context bunged together to create the illusion that there's a point being made.

For instance, the relative success of Laois in the 2000s had much more to do with the maturation of their double AI winning minor teams from the 1990s than with whatever league structure was in place around the time.

There's no real evidence of the causation you're attempting to claim. Just some Angelo style bunk. And it's clear this is going in the direction of some weird defence of Dublin unity. If us dumb culchies would only push for different structures everything would be great and vibrant and exciting again. And then Dublin wouldn't win everything always and we wouldn't have to split them up to get some semblance of competition.

But you're not dealing with the point at all - you're just providing rhetoric - and you trail off into an entirely different point - you reveal your real agenda, which is to harm Dublin

I'm not saying that the 2000s league format by itself will make teams competitive - but it will allow teams to have a better chance to be competitive if they get their house in order

What you are asking for is impossible to provide - by the same definition of "proof" you're asking for, one cannot "prove" funding has had any benefits for Dublin GAA, one cannot prove anything - in your words, there is no "evidence" for that

The long and short of it is you just don't like the point, even though it makes perfect sense

The question is, why you object to the point?

Can I ask you, what actual benefits for the game are there from an 8 team Divisions 1-4 format compared to a 16 team Division 1?

Do you agree that a better standard of regular football gives more teams more of a chance to improve?

And that a worse standard of football gives them less chance to improve?

If not, why?

[sid waddell]

Sid as an aside. Tg4 Monday is the best Gaa show to watch. You will see more joe McDonagh games, more underage games. The Sunday game is full of analysis by people who generally aren't very good at analysing.

Also on division one benefiting teams Westmeath and down had big falls from division one. Derry too. Cavan are an example I reluctantly use too as they went from one to three in two years

Wexford had the best team of my life in that period. Marty Forde, lyng and now they have ben Brianna who is too good for division four but not a team. Limerick used to be better but John galvin's only come along every so often, likewise Marty force's. Sligo should not be division four and Laois should be nowhere near it. Neither would be if their house was in order.

The hurling for me undoubtedly proves the improvement in standard from these more competitive games.

The Monday TG4 highlights is a good programme but it's very niche, the floating public don't watch it, and it being in Irish doesn't help

So if you want publicity for lower tier competitions, you're going to get much there

Limerick is another example of a team who benefitted from the 2000s league structure - they gained promotion in 2003 and went on to top Division 1B in 2004, only losing to Kerry in by two points in the semi-final

Monaghan's modern rise started with a Division 2 title in 2005

I don't understand how people can say the Super 8s is elitist and reinforces the advantages of Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal etc. - it clearly does - but then not see that an eight team NFL Division 1 does the same

In the last decade, six teams have managed to get into Division 1 and stay there for all or most of the time - Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan -  amazingly enough these teams, with the benefit of constant elite Division 1 football, have been the teams constantly reaching the business end of the championship

Teams can reach an eight team Division 1 for a year or two - Down, Roscommon, Cavan, Kildare, Meath have all done so in recent years, but they're generally straight back down, losing most of their matches by big margins - and that knocks them back

The point is, how many Laoises and Limericks and Westmeaths and Wexfords and Sligo and Fermanaghs of the 2000s didn't happen in the 2010s because the league structures helped to cut them off at the root

From 2000-2009, 17 teams reached an All-Ireland semi-final or won a provincial championship

From 2010-2019, that fell to 11

That's not a Dublin problem - that's an across the board competitiveness problem

GAA historian Paul Rouse makes the exact same point I do about this

[imtommygunn]

My point on TG4 wasn't about publicity - my point on TG4 was that you should watch it to see that the Joe McDonagh has improved teams. (I don't know what wil happen on sunday so that may came back to haunt me lol). You were making a point about not seeing improvement but hadn't seen the teams.

On that same note I can tell you that if you're from a lesser county then in the championship you will get token coverage on a show like the sunday game so I don't buy the publicity thing. (However to be fair BBC NI will show ulster but RTE show minimal of "lesser" teams).

Fermanagh have happened since 2010s. The year they clapped the big FF who's name escapes me off at croke park the dubs hammered them but they were very good otherwise. The dubs hammer everyone but that's a different argument.

I don't fully buy the argument about the teams going into division one either. If division one , allbeit for one year, would improve them then they would have improved more than teams who for example came from division three so would beat them and go up again.

Also logistically I actually don't understand what you want. Mix up all the divisions so everyone plays everyone?

how many John Galvins have limerick had since the 2000s? How many Matty Fordes have wexford had since the 2000s? In addition limerick were a whisker away from the munster final this year. The ridiculous point from sweeney in normal time(in a positive way) and the ridiculous miss from the limerick mark(in a negative way) in extra time were what stopped them. Fermanagh don't have as good a team - simple as that. I don't know what is happening sligo but they should be way better. When was the last time Laois were competing regularly at all ireland stage in underage? It was pre 2000s so feeding into 2000s. The standard of player they have produced, bar Kingston, hasn't been the same.

Tbh you could counter what I say all day and I could counter what you say all day long but ultimately I don't agree with what you're saying. I also think we come from a different perspective in terms of county status and that has a bearing on viewpoint.

(On your super 8s point I don't know about the elite thing but I just think they are a load of crap. Also teams like Roscommon and Monaghan *should* have improved from them by your rationale but they have not. I just think the super 8s are a load of crap - they take too much time away from club football and generally teams a few teams will get into them who are nowhere near top 8 then get beat first 2 games and the last is a dead duck). I would like to see more knockout games and if this year has taught us anything it's that knockout is better.)

[sid waddell]

My point on TG4 wasn't about publicity - my point on TG4 was that you should watch it to see that the Joe McDonagh has improved teams. (I don't know what wil happen on sunday so that may came back to haunt me lol). You were making a point about not seeing improvement but hadn't seen the teams.

On that same note I can tell you that if you're from a lesser county then in the championship you will get token coverage on a show like the sunday game so I don't buy the publicity thing. (However to be fair BBC NI will show ulster but RTE show minimal of "lesser" teams).

Fermanagh have happened since 2010s. The year they clapped the big FF who's name escapes me off at croke park the dubs hammered them but they were very good otherwise. The dubs hammer everyone but that's a different argument.

I don't fully buy the argument about the teams going into division one either. If division one , allbeit for one year, would improve them then they would have improved more than teams who for example came from division three so would beat them and go up again.

Also logistically I actually don't understand what you want. Mix up all the divisions so everyone plays everyone?

how many John Galvins have limerick had since the 2000s? How many Matty Fordes have wexford had since the 2000s? In addition limerick were a whisker away from the munster final this year. The ridiculous point from sweeney in normal time(in a positive way) and the ridiculous miss from the limerick mark(in a negative way) in extra time were what stopped them. Fermanagh don't have as good a team - simple as that. I don't know what is happening sligo but they should be way better. When was the last time Laois were competing regularly at all ireland stage in underage? It was pre 2000s so feeding into 2000s. The standard of player they have produced, bar Kingston, hasn't been the same.

Tbh you could counter what I say all day and I could counter what you say all day long but ultimately I don't agree with what you're saying. I also think we come from a different perspective in terms of county status and that has a bearing on viewpoint.

(On your super 8s point I don't know about the elite thing but I just think they are a load of crap. Also teams like Roscommon and Monaghan *should* have improved from them by your rationale but they have not. I just think the super 8s are a load of crap - they take too much time away from club football and generally teams a few teams will get into them who are nowhere near top 8 then get beat first 2 games and the last is a dead duck). I would like to see more knockout games and if this year has taught us anything it's that knockout is better.)

But 17 teams have reached All-Ireland semi-finals or won provincial titles in the 2000s compared to 11 in the 2010s

Why has that happened?

Fermanagh did alright in the 2015-18 period but in reality they were not nearly as competitive as the 2000s team who competed seriously at this business end of the championship - an All-Ireland semi-final replay

Monaghan improved because i) they got their underage set up in order ii) they built through the second half of the 2000s under Banty iii) they then got a serious manager in Malachy O'Rourke iv) they got into Division 1 and stayed there - constant Division 1 football improved them - they reached the limit of their ability

Roscommon had three years out of four in Division 1 in 2016, 17 and 19, they're back there again next year - those seasons definitely helped them as regards winning Connacht, Cavan were probably helped this year by their two seasons in Division 1 even if they were relegated both times

But the teams that are most helped by an eight team Division 1 are Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal - they have a constant diet of top level football each spring, and it shows

Mattie Forde was a prodigious talent but he was allowed develop in a split 16 team Division 1, didn't he score four goals against Galway in Tuam once

Niall McNamee was also a prodigious talent, but bar a short spell at the start of his career when Offaly were in the same split 16 team Division 1 and reached a Leinster final off the back of that, they've been languishing in a vicious circle of Division 3 and 4 football - unsurprisingly they've done nothing in the championship since then

What I want is the 1999-2007 league format

[imtommygunn]

17 v 11 is not THAT big a disparity. Super 8s are going to narrow down the potential for "lesser" teams to make semi finals. Also Dublin dominance. How many leinster semi finalists this decade vs last?

Fermanagh haven't had as good players this decade as they had last decade. Marty McGrath, Barry Owens, Ryan McCloskey, Brewsters. Those players have not been there this decade.

Monaghan improved because they had better players and a better manager. That happened due to underage becoming better too yes.

Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal... Who would be the strongest in their provinces underage wise over the period preceding now? I would have thought those would be the top 5? Clearly Kerry and Dublin. Tyrone have chipped away at underage and Donegal had a few minors in a row. The only challenger to those teams underage wise is Galway who should really be so much better than they are between corofin and underage success.

Cavan are a bit of an anomaly for me. They clearly have players of pedigree based on underage record but it's not that often they have done it. I don't know that you can say they have improved in division 1 if I'm honest despite this year and ironically it was their division 2 they make a breakthrough. I honestly don't see Roscommon as an improved team either. They're not a bad team and have some fine footballers before anyone jumps on that but they haven't got much better or worse this last few years.

Tbh I can't find the list of the 17 to compare them with the 11 but if you link me them I would happily go through them.

You have a conclusion of clearly the league the way it works etc etc doesn't work and you are trying to use stats to put an argument in their favour. It is lies, damn lies and statistics because I can pretty much do it the other way too lol. I really do not believe for one second that a league structure has anything to do with the variance in all ireland semi finals. Nothing you have put in any post has convinced me of that.

[Milltown Row2]

Leagues are for playing in and championships are for winning.....

The mindset of the player is Championship, always has been and until the league becomes the bases of where you sit in the championship, first tier or second then that will be the approach of certain counties..

You can have as many formats as you like in the league, unless its linked to championship it won't improve a thing..

Teams will improve over the winter months with when they see that a very good league campaign will result in promotion to the Sam Maguire..

[sid waddell]

17 v 11 is not THAT big a disparity. Super 8s are going to narrow down the potential for "lesser" teams to make semi finals. Also Dublin dominance. How many leinster semi finalists this decade vs last?

Fermanagh haven't had as good players this decade as they had last decade. Marty McGrath, Barry Owens, Ryan McCloskey, Brewsters. Those players have not been there this decade.

Monaghan improved because they had better players and a better manager. That happened due to underage becoming better too yes.

Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal... Who would be the strongest in their provinces underage wise over the period preceding now? I would have thought those would be the top 5? Clearly Kerry and Dublin. Tyrone have chipped away at underage and Donegal had a few minors in a row. The only challenger to those teams underage wise is Galway who should really be so much better than they are between corofin and underage success.

Cavan are a bit of an anomaly for me. They clearly have players of pedigree based on underage record but it's not that often they have done it. I don't know that you can say they have improved in division 1 if I'm honest despite this year and ironically it was their division 2 they make a breakthrough. I honestly don't see Roscommon as an improved team either. They're not a bad team and have some fine footballers before anyone jumps on that but they haven't got much better or worse this last few years.

Tbh I can't find the list of the 17 to compare them with the 11 but if you link me them I would happily go through them.

You have a conclusion of clearly the league the way it works etc etc doesn't work and you are trying to use stats to put an argument in their favour. It is lies, damn lies and statistics because I can pretty much do it the other way too lol. I really do not believe for one second that a league structure has anything to do with the variance in all ireland semi finals. Nothing you have put in any post has convinced me of that.

It's a simple principle and is backed up by both statistics and the bleedin' obvious - the more you play at a higher level, the more you have the chance to improve, it's a virtuous circle

That's the difference between the 1999-2007 league format and the 2008- one

In the current format, you're either part of the small group of elite counties or you're left in the dust - that wasn't the case with the previous format

[imtommygunn]

It only holds if you are close to that level. If you are not it is just demoralising. The gap gets too much and then you get the scenario where players are not willing to put the commitment in. A division 4 team playing dublin achieves nothing. Similarly tyrone, Mayo, Donegal.

Basically I agree it's a simple principle but I don't agree it is a principle that holds with the current state of the GAA in either football or hurling.

[sid waddell]

It only holds if you are close to that level. If you are not it is just demoralising. The gap gets too much and then you get the scenario where players are not willing to put the commitment in. A division 4 team playing dublin achieves nothing. Similarly tyrone, Mayo, Donegal.

Basically I agree it's a simple principle but I don't agree it is a principle that holds with the current state of the GAA in either football or hurling.

The current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

That massive gap wasn't really there under the previous system

Teams could compete, they generally wouldn't be beaten out the gate, they had a realistic shot of improving by getting a good regular standard of football

The more the system is tiered, the more the ladder is pulled up after the Division 1 regulars like Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal

The gaps between Division 1 regulars and the Division 2 regulars is bigger than it ever was

The gaps between the Division 2 regulars and the Division 4 regulars is bigger than it ever was

Social mobility has declined

[imtommygunn]

The current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

Has it really though? I am really not convinced.

The game has evolved a lot in that time. The better teams have got better and the worse teams arguably worse. I personally do not believe that has to do with the league setup. I believe it is to do with the state of the game itself. The league changes did happen in that time yes but I do not believe they are the key thing to make that difference. The preparation levels of the top teams have gone through the roof. Tyrone and Armagh stepped it up, Kerry then followed and now Dublin have brought it to a new level altogether. That's not relating to four divisions the way they are.

There is nothing you have said that makes me believe you are right in your opinion. It's just my opinion against yours tbh.

[sid waddell]

The current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

Has it really though? I am really not convinced.

The game has evolved a lot in that time. The better teams have got better and the worse teams arguably worse. I personally do not believe that has to do with the league setup. I believe it is to do with the state of the game itself. The league changes did happen in that time yes but I do not believe they are the key thing to make that difference. The preparation levels of the top teams have gone through the roof. Tyrone and Armagh stepped it up, Kerry then followed and now Dublin have brought it to a new level altogether. That's not relating to four divisions the way they are.

There is nothing you have said that makes me believe you are right in your opinion. It's just my opinion against yours tbh.

And why is that?

Competition structures are at least part of the answer

A widespread argument currently running is that Leinster teams are giving up because they're trapped in the Leinster championship

So the acceptance that competition structures do make a difference is actually pretty uncontroversial

[Eire90]

is the rise of social media to blame are people these days just content with being on facebook

[imtommygunn]

The current league system has done a lot to create the gaps

Has it really though? I am really not convinced.

The game has evolved a lot in that time. The better teams have got better and the worse teams arguably worse. I personally do not believe that has to do with the league setup. I believe it is to do with the state of the game itself. The league changes did happen in that time yes but I do not believe they are the key thing to make that difference. The preparation levels of the top teams have gone through the roof. Tyrone and Armagh stepped it up, Kerry then followed and now Dublin have brought it to a new level altogether. That's not relating to four divisions the way they are.

There is nothing you have said that makes me believe you are right in your opinion. It's just my opinion against yours tbh.

And why is that?

Competition structures are at least part of the answer

A widespread argument currently running is that Leinster teams are giving up because they're trapped in the Leinster championship

So the acceptance that competition structures do make a difference is actually pretty uncontroversial

Yeah but to counter that the Leinster structures have not changed. It's not a variable.

I'm not trolling you. I don't believe mixing everyone up helps lesser teams. I just don't. It may not be the case for every county granted but I believe it is for mine and would be for others. Maybe a team like Laois or Sligo football wise may, may, be different

Why is that could be a phd. It's not a simple question. Strength and conditioning is the biggest reason imo. You would rarely get "lesser teams" buying into these regimes. That has nothing to do with league structure.