The run up to conflict in Northern Ireland

[T Fearon]

If I'm not mistaken rich Catholics and Protestants enjoyed many more voting privileges than working class Protestants and Catholics, in the early decades on N Ireland's lifespan.

[T Fearon]

Other questions to ask, was the discrimination practiced by unionists borne out of fear and insecurity and a siege mentality , as opposed to a generally perceived loathing of Catholics? I would say yes is  probably the answer to that one.

Would the changes that have happened, have happened anyway,irrespective of violence, and indeed violence delayed many of the changes.Again I would say yes.

[seafoid]

If I'm not mistaken rich Catholics and Protestants enjoyed many more voting privileges than working class Protestants and Catholics, in the early decades on N Ireland's lifespan.

that is a complete non sequitur. Rich catholics were maybe 5% of the catholic population.
They must have loved the system.  But what always counts is how it treats Joe average.

[omochain]

I was raised on the border in the 50's and 60's. In many ways it was a lost part of Ireland neither, North or South. One of those places that the Boundary Commission actually wanted to hive off to the Free State. I grew up in a catholic enclave where there was very limited exposure to loyalism and Stormont (which we refused to recognize). We had two forms of recognized and accepted authority, the Catholic Church and the GAA.

Our protestant neighbors were a small minority that we lived with and worked with cordially for 10 months of every year. Then the triumphalist gene would burst out in July and August and they would insist on telling us who was boss during their marching season but seemed to get over it before the first Sunday in September (I guess they were more interested in hurling than most of the GAA folks in the 9 counties!) In fact we had a couple of protestants friends who played hurling with us in the early 60's and for most of the year there was no mention of what "Kirk" you attended. (A couple of Protestants was a lot because the population distribution in our area was over 90% Catholic.) 

There was however a constant tension and the impression that you were not the same as them, you were something of a lower caste.  Regardless of whether you ran faster, jumped higher, were better educated or better off financially, being protestant seemed to trump all the aforementioned in a loyalists eyes.

I remember my uncle always lamenting about when he and other catholic neighbors would go to help his protestant neighbor with the hay each summer that the neighbor's mother (who was particularly strongly devoted to the orange order) would fry up a big feed of rashers and sausages on Friday to show her appreciation to the Catholics who came to help. For those of you too young to remember, back in the day papists ate fish on Friday. Despite this affront the Catholic neighbors always showed up to help and laughed off the bitterness of the woman. Thankfully she did not pass any of her bitterness to her son and he seemed to be embarrassed by her behavior. Nevertheless that need to kick out at her "papist" neighbors never left her during all the times that they showed up to help.

Another anecdote from an earlier day in the 30's or 40's when "hiring fairs" still existed. Again for those who do not know the term; at a "hiring fair" young men would sell themselves into indenture for 6 to 9 months. A neighbor of ours when he was younger was hired out to a big protestant farmer in County Tyrone. He was fed porridge for breakfast and dinner every day for 3 months until he scraped up the courage to ask for a cup of "tae" one evening. The woman of the house scornfully rebuked his request with the following pleasantry "You ungrateful papist bastard, now that the wrinkles are out of your belly you are starting to get cheeky."

For me those anecdotes speak to the peaceful yet uneasy tension that predated the civil rights movement that kicked into gear in the late 60's. As long as we knew who the boss was and accepted our place in the back of the bus; everything was OK. Once we started looking for equality in housing, employment and government, the cork blew off the top of the bottle.

[ballela-angel]

The State of Northern Ireland was set up as a result of the Unionists fear of Rome influence in the South, and hence any form of Home Rule or independence was seen as Rome- Rule - (Regrettably the Unionists were right about that; the British were kicked out down south and the Catholic Church took over for eighty years - Thankfully their influence on Irish society both South and North has considerably waned in the last decade or so, mostly through the rampant pedophilia activity of many of their clergy - Regrettably many innocent people had to suffer along the way)

Having established the State, the Unionists copper-fastened their hold on Protestant domination and Catholic subservience by legislation such as the Special Powers Act, intimidation by the B-Specials, whose members were allowed to keep their guns at home and the membership of which was 100% Protestant (while the unarmed at the time, R.U.C. were 90% plus Protestant, and less than 10% Catholic)

In addition to the intimidation from the Special Powers Act and the B Specials, which was intended to constantly let the Catholics know that they were second class citizens,political power was maintained by gerrymandering voting districts, by permitting only those who paid rent to vote (so only the household heads of large Catholic families could vote and the many children were disenfranchised), plus property owners and business owners had multiple votes.

And to round-off all the above were the annual Orange-men's, Black-men's and Apprentice Boy's triumphalist parades - All for the purposes of physiologically keeping the Catholics second class and reminding the brethren that the root of it all was the threat from Rome

The Education Act that was passed in Britain after WW II was adopted in the North, and as a result the number of educated Catholics grew significantly through the 50's and 60's - These educated Catholics said enough is enough, started the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) and pulled the veil away from the Unionist regime and let the British public and the world at large look in

The Unionists immediately reacted against the use of their marching highways being used by NICRA and believed the civil rights movement was an IRA cover (the IRA being their bogyman since the twenties) and went so far as to blown up some utility services in the 60's and blamed it on the IRA to make their case

NICRA was a completely non violent political movement, until the civil rights march in Newry where violence was first used. Many in NICRA formed or joined the SDLP and started the process of equality for all through political means. Unionism saw both NICRA and the SDLP as a threat to the State

There was no effective IRA until the Protestants attached the Ardoyne area and that was only in the role of protectors of the catholic neighborhood. It was subsequent to that and the arrival of the British army to keep the two communities apart that the Provisional IRA was formed to counter the bollix of a job the British Army did in treating the Catholic community, and with the birth of the Provisional IRA came the call for a united Ireland which was never a part of NICRA or the civil rights movement

[illdecide]

Tony you may well have had good experiences with your prod friends when you were growing up but you were def in the minority. As someone already stated it would have been max 5% of Catholics that were wealthy and the Protestant people def treated the Catholic people like 2nd class citizens.

I remember working in Portadown in 89 and thru the early 90's and it was a scary place for a young Catholic to be, I was treated like a dog at times and threatened more times than i care to remember. Those cold, dark, wintry mornings walking to work when we were getting shot likes dogs on the street was frightening.

I can remember an older man telling me he was in the UDA in his younger days around Belfast and telling me he could have hit his boss and walked across the road into another job there and then but "you couldn't have done it" he said.

Everything was okay for years when we had nothing and expected nothing too but as the Catholic people started to educate themselves and take proper jobs and looking for equal rights that was the only way we were going to get power back and have our own say, the tables are turning though...

[BennyCake]

Omochain, your last sentence hit the nail on the head.

[seafoid]

http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main26.asp?filename=Cr020307Still_No.asp

http://www.thurumbar.com/cms/pages/about-us.html

[T Fearon]

I can only relay my own experiences.When I was growing up in the 60s it would be fair to say most of my friends were from the Protestant community.I don't ever recall any bad experience,apart from being ordered out of a newsagent shop when I was about ten,when the proprietor heard I was frequenting a rival Catholic newsagents.I remember the almost embarrassment,on their part,of being stopped by some of these lads when they were members of the UDR! I never felt second class.

I am not saying life was perfect,as I said previously I had to take to my heels a few times to avoid hidings, but thankfully I'm able to see the other man's perspective,and have come to the conclusion that we have all been short changed by giving misplaced allegiances to countries/states that do not want any of us,don't understand us,and who both treat everyone of us like second class citizens

[armaghniac]

The reason for the existence of NI, then and now, is to make Irish people second class citizens. Of course this is more obvious some times than others and to some people than others.

[bennydorano]

Portadown still scares me. Alabama of the North indeed.

[seafoid]

Portadown still scares me. Alabama of the North indeed.

Portadown and Larne are the 2 most miserable towns I have ever visited. Even Stoke has more going for it.   

[stew]

Harold I realise we had different experiences,but I'm old enough to remember the building of Churchill Park and Ballyoran Park which were mixed at the start,before the troubles really got underway (I lived two years in my early days in the heart of Killicomaine!). It was sad that people on both sides were driven out of mixed estates into in effect segregated areas.But I still don't think you can demonise entire communities.

Tony, I lived at number one Queens Gardens for the first six years of my life, the neighbors were fantastic and the majority of whom were Prods, it was the scumbags in the surrounding area's that were the problem, we got burned out of Queens Gardens and thankfully moved to Longstone  in Armagh which to me was utopia.

I have not been in the north since 09, I miss family and friends and the GAA, if not for those three entities I would never go near the place.

[BennyCake]

Portadown still scares me. Alabama of the North indeed.

Lisburn is a bigoted hellhole. The people there are soooo Protestant, it's scary.

[Minder]

Portadown still scares me. Alabama of the North indeed.

Lisburn is a bigoted hellhole. The people there are soooo Protestant, it's scary.

I don't think it's as bad as it used to be.

Don't they have a Gaa club now ?