Record numbers of free staters flock to join British Army

[Canalman]

Fair enough comments Gallsman but I will have to pull you up on one point.

Down South it is seen as very bad manners to talk politics in social circles and a no no in work.

Also, I feel that the average Northerner doesn't care much for Southern politics and I have no problem with that. However I do get a bit annoyed that some take the hump because some down south don't care about the north. Maybe Gallsman it is because they have the more pressing of issues such as work, paying mortgages, watching x Factor  (sadly)etc to occupy them.

It wasn't all plain sailing down here during "The Troubles" also.

[Donnellys Hollow]

The likes of Tom Barry and Emmet Dalton served in the British Army. I wouldn't have liked to tell them they were any less Irish than anyone else. What about Tom Crean?

Even Michael Collins himself 'served the queen' when working for the Royal Mail.

[Hardy]

I could say I don’t understand the mentality that allows an Irishman to join the British Army, because I couldn’t imagine contemplating it myself. But I think I do understand it, from personal experience and some sort of cultural insight.

Many (most?) people are apolitical. (That may be the reason Michael Lowry and his ilk get elected). Combine that with the total domination of popular culture here by British influences, from Coronation Street to Manchester United to The Sun and you’ll find that a very large number of Irish people make no real distinction between Britain and Ireland in their daily lives. They, reasonably, see no appreciable cultural difference. They are almost oblivious to the political implications and so they are completely open to the blandishments of the British recruiting sergeant.

Coronation Street presents joining “the army” as a normal option for a young lad. The Sun in the hands of young fellas from Dundalk to Durrus screams support for “our boys” in Afghanistan and presents the whole enterprise as a heroic endeavour. Lads from Dublin on the terraces of Old Trafford rub shoulders with football soul mates who are British squaddies. It’s no great leap of loyalty for these people to join up.

As for personal experience, my closest friend at the time left school at 16 because his family couldn’t afford to carry him any more – he had to contribute financially. The only option he could find (in his terms) was to join the RAF. This was at the height of the Troubles, coincidentally a time when there were few opportunities in Ireland for a sixteen-year-old.

He had no political awareness. I had a little, though it was a sixteen-year-old’s. As far as he was concerned, he was going to a job – a job he was glad to get and that would enable him to send a few bob home to his family. I argued with him that it was more than a job. To him it wasn’t. (There was never a chance of him, as RAF ground crew, being posted to the North, for what it’s worth).

As regards his sense of Irishness, he didn’t really have one. He didn’t have a sense of Britishness either, as a member of the British services. He was/is one of those people who consider themselves citizens of the world and see nationalism as narrow and restricting. I respect that point of view.

He left the RAF after a few years. For the years when he was a member and a good few years afterwards, he was aware (probably from being advised by his colleagues) of the dangers of visiting home (Drogheda). He did so occasionally and clandestinely and we’d meet for pints. I visited him in England as well. We’re friends to this day.

[muppet]

Good post Hardy.

[pintsofguinness]

Upon leaving school and moving to Dublin, the attitude of (what I perceive to be a majority) people of my generation in the south toward the north, its people and its constitutional status both shocked and apalled me. Apathy is about as politely as I could put it. Nobody cared about the Troubles, nobody knew the history post-partition, nobody was interested in any northern politics. Maybe the last bit is understandable.

From my school, one guy shunned going to uni and went off to the Curragh to join the cadets. Upon graduating he was swiftly sent off to NUIG, where he and a load of other recently graduated officers, spent two years drinking and failing exams for their Arts degrees, on the taxpayer's dime whilst receiving their full salary. This is something that needs to be reviewed. Obviously I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

Did they care about southern politics? I'd be surprised if they did.
We're a long way from student protests of the 1960s/70s - today's students seem to  only be concerned about getting pissed every night.

[muppet]

Upon leaving school and moving to Dublin, the attitude of (what I perceive to be a majority) people of my generation in the south toward the north, its people and its constitutional status both shocked and apalled me. Apathy is about as politely as I could put it. Nobody cared about the Troubles, nobody knew the history post-partition, nobody was interested in any northern politics. Maybe the last bit is understandable.

From my school, one guy shunned going to uni and went off to the Curragh to join the cadets. Upon graduating he was swiftly sent off to NUIG, where he and a load of other recently graduated officers, spent two years drinking and failing exams for their Arts degrees, on the taxpayer's dime whilst receiving their full salary. This is something that needs to be reviewed. Obviously I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

Did they care about southern politics? I'd be surprised if they did.
We're a long way from student protests of the 1960s/70s - today's students seem to  only be concerned about getting pissed every night.

Says the man who calls himself pintsofguinness!

[gallsman]

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

A guy who is working in an area that he was always passionate about. Can't see an issue personally. He's still as Irish as you and clearly better off without the friendship.

How very noble of you. Fortunately, what I "consider" is my own personal opinion, so yours is of no concern to me in the slightest.

[Applesisapples]

who are these free stater people you refer to in the thread title?

People who don't live in the occupied 6 counties obviously!!

[Applesisapples]

Or maybe you just don't know people from the 26 counties find that term offensive as it is the Irish Republic.

Why? You were originally the Irish Free State. It is a term spoken out of envy in this part of the world.

[imtommygunn]

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

A guy who is working in an area that he was always passionate about. Can't see an issue personally. He's still as Irish as you and clearly better off without the friendship.

How very noble of you. Fortunately, what I "consider" is my own personal opinion, so yours is of no concern to me in the slightest.

Out of interest why do you no longer consider him a friend? Is it because he joined "the Brits"? Your post seems to imply that previously he considered himself Irish - is it because you think he's betrayed his Irishness?

[gallsman]

Upon leaving school and moving to Dublin, the attitude of (what I perceive to be a majority) people of my generation in the south toward the north, its people and its constitutional status both shocked and apalled me. Apathy is about as politely as I could put it. Nobody cared about the Troubles, nobody knew the history post-partition, nobody was interested in any northern politics. Maybe the last bit is understandable.

From my school, one guy shunned going to uni and went off to the Curragh to join the cadets. Upon graduating he was swiftly sent off to NUIG, where he and a load of other recently graduated officers, spent two years drinking and failing exams for their Arts degrees, on the taxpayer's dime whilst receiving their full salary. This is something that needs to be reviewed. Obviously I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

Did they care about southern politics? I'd be surprised if they did.
We're a long way from student protests of the 1960s/70s - today's students seem to  only be concerned about getting pissed every night.

True enough, few of them did. Then again, most northerners of my generation would be in a similar position if it wasn't about voting green or orange.

Fair enough comments Gallsman but I will have to pull you up on one point.

Down South it is seen as very bad manners to talk politics in social circles and a no no in work.

Also, I feel that the average Northerner doesn't care much for Southern politics and I have no problem with that. However I do get a bit annoyed that some take the hump because some down south don't care about the north. Maybe Gallsman it is because they have the more pressing of issues such as work, paying mortgages, watching x Factor  (sadly)etc to occupy them.

It wasn't all plain sailing down here during "The Troubles" also.

Since beginning work in my office in November, not a day has passed when politics hasn't been discussed. Obvisouly the dire financial straits the country finds itself in may have changed this "norm".

Of course it wasn't all "plain sailing", I never said it was. However, people in the south weren't getting murdered because of their identiy on a regular basis, almost none by the forces of another state. This is what irritates me. Never mind the day in, day out nitty gritty politics - major events of the Troubles such as Bloody Sunday are stains on Irish history, not just northern history. Yet a majority people of my generation down here may well struggle to tell you what city it even took place in!

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

A guy who is working in an area that he was always passionate about. Can't see an issue personally. He's still as Irish as you and clearly better off without the friendship.

How very noble of you. Fortunately, what I "consider" is my own personal opinion, so yours is of no concern to me in the slightest.

Out of interest why do you no longer consider him a friend? Is it because he joined "the Brits"? Your post seems to imply that previously he considered himself Irish - is it because you think he's betrayed his Irishness?

My post doesn't imply that he considered himslef Irish, although I have no doubt that he did and continues to do so. It implies that I considered him Irish. To give you a short answer, yes. His family are involved with an Irish nationalist political party - yet he signs up to join the forces of an occupying country. 800 years and all that.

[Applesisapples]

4000 is a "record" number. I wonder when the record keeping began. 

My nephew was one of the officer cadets who made it to the three day assessment. He was saying most of the boys in the barracks were intending to join up with the Brits if they weren't successful. IMO they should be stripped of their citizenship.

I don't really understand why someone would want to join the british army, but that's just ridiculous.
This isn't a dictatorship, free will exists.

In a dictatorship they'd be shot. I agree 100% with Ulick on this one. Why the hell should any Irishman be permitted to join an army that has shot and murdered Irish citizens for 100's of years right up to the present. They have the free will to do so if they so wish, Ireland should have the free will to tell them to leave their passports at the ferry when they leave.

Over the past 100 years or so, many more Irishmen have chosen to serve in the British Army than have chosen to join the death squads of the various paramilitary groupings on the island. Perhaps its the latter who should be stripped of their citizenship.

One man's paramilitary is another mans patriot. The double standards and hypocrisy of those denouncing the armed struggle here whilst shipping arms to Libya/Afghanistan/South America etc... Without any notion of what it was like to be Irish in the North after partition and up to recently. Where at every turn you were reminded of your inferiority to the British Majority and membership of the GAA made you a target for State as well as Paramilitary violence as with Aiden McAnespie. I am not for one minute condoning armed conflict any where and what we have now though not perfect is a hell of a lot better than the 50's and 60's, but it is easy to sit in your living room and tut.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Or maybe you just don't know people from the 26 counties find that term offensive as it is the Irish Republic.

Why? You were originally the Irish Free State. It is a term spoken out of envy in this part of the world.

It comes across as a clear denial of the correct status of the Irish State as a Republic. It comes across as a bitter comment on the people of the Republic, who are 100% Irish (as you) and who don't deserve your nasty attitude for just living their lifes. By the way we were Southern Ireland for a few weeks before being the Irish Free State, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland before that, the Kingdom of Ireland before that and the Lordship of Ireland before that. So it make us no sense to call the 26 counties anything but their official title of Ireland or Éire. If those correct terms seem partitionist or too easily confused with the island of the same names why not refer to the 26 as the acceptable name of Irish Republic or the inoffensive description of the 26 Counties. It can get a bit tiring when everything someone from the Republic says is screamed down as bigoted or partitionist, but people from the 6 counties can shout Mexican, FreeStater, WestBrits etc. and find it perfectly acceptable.

[Ulick]

It comes across as a clear denial of the correct status of the Irish State as a Republic. It comes across as a bitter comment on the people of the Republic, who are 100% Irish (as you) and who don't deserve your nasty attitude for just living their lifes. By the way we were Southern Ireland for a few weeks before being the Irish Free State, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland before that, the Kingdom of Ireland before that and the Lordship of Ireland before that. So it make us no sense to call the 26 counties anything but their official title of Ireland or Éire. If those correct terms seem partitionist or too easily confused with the island of the same names why not refer to the 26 as the acceptable name of Irish Republic or the inoffensive description of the 26 Counties. It can get a bit tiring when everything someone from the Republic says is screamed down as bigoted or partitionist, but people from the 6 counties can shout Mexican, FreeStater, WestBrits etc. and find it perfectly acceptable.

Would an Irishman with an allegiance to the Irish republic be prepared to swear the following:

"I (your name), swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors and that I will as in duty bound honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, her heirs and successors in person, crown and dignity against all enemies and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, her heirs and successors and of the generals and officers set over me."

If so, then Free Stater is a suitable enough term for him, I could think of worse but Free Stater is both appropriate and historically accurate.

[pintsofguinness]

Upon leaving school and moving to Dublin, the attitude of (what I perceive to be a majority) people of my generation in the south toward the north, its people and its constitutional status both shocked and apalled me. Apathy is about as politely as I could put it. Nobody cared about the Troubles, nobody knew the history post-partition, nobody was interested in any northern politics. Maybe the last bit is understandable.

From my school, one guy shunned going to uni and went off to the Curragh to join the cadets. Upon graduating he was swiftly sent off to NUIG, where he and a load of other recently graduated officers, spent two years drinking and failing exams for their Arts degrees, on the taxpayer's dime whilst receiving their full salary. This is something that needs to be reviewed. Obviously I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush.

Another fella, who I was quite friendly with, went to Queen's to study Aeronautical Engineering. Always fascinated by planes, particularly fighter jets, he buggered off to join the RAF and is now a few flying hours away from full qualification. Entitled to dual citizenship like anyone born in the north, I no longer consider him Irish and certainly not a friend.

Did they care about southern politics? I'd be surprised if they did.
We're a long way from student protests of the 1960s/70s - today's students seem to  only be concerned about getting pissed every night.

True enough, few of them did. Then again, most northerners of my generation would be in a similar position if it wasn't about voting green or orange.

Fair enough comments Gallsman but I will have to pull you up on one point.

Down South it is seen as very bad manners to talk politics in social circles and a no no in work.

Also, I feel that the average Northerner doesn't care much for Southern politics and I have no problem with that. However I do get a bit annoyed that some take the hump because some down south don't care about the north. Maybe Gallsman it is because they have the more pressing of issues such as work, paying mortgages, watching x Factor  (sadly)etc to occupy them.

It wasn't all plain sailing down here during "The Troubles" also.

Since beginning work in my office in November, not a day has passed when politics hasn't been discussed. Obvisouly the dire financial straits the country finds itself in may have changed this "norm".

Of course it wasn't all "plain sailing", I never said it was. However, people in the south weren't getting murdered because of their identiy on a regular basis, almost none by the forces of another state. This is what irritates me. Never mind the day in, day out nitty gritty politics - major events of the Troubles such as Bloody Sunday are stains on Irish history, not just northern history. Yet a majority people of my generation down here may well struggle to tell you what city it even took place in!

But that's down to ignorance and today's culture. You see it in England too, people are more interested in what the Beckhams are up to etc. There's a real dumbing down of society. 
I'll never forget a woman I met in a pub in England (English woman) a few years ago who didn't know who Hitler was.