The Southern "Irish"

Started by rrhf, January 30, 2009, 05:42:27 PM

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Puckoon

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2009, 07:03:35 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2009, 06:55:54 PM
Of course we all know that the British Army and the different guises of the local militia followed orders to the letter.

I wonder why only nationalists were interned in 1971? a minor discrepency?


No doubt they didnt. What does that have to do with Lynchbhoys assertion?

Does that make his assertion justifiable? Or is it still a huge mistruth?

For the context of this discussion I dont care what exactly the British armies, the loyalists or the republican movement did - there comes a time when the continued attempts by people from all sides to justify the unjustifiable becomes laughable at best.
we are not talking about justification we are talking about the ideology of the republicanmovement.
Never was it a strategy/motive/ethos/mantra etc call it what you will , to kill people purely because of religion.
End of

god help you if smiley faces put you off !

Fair enough ideology/ethos/mantra it is then. So would you agree that more often than it should that the ideology went right out the window?

Did the ideology include money from racketeering and drugs?

lynchbhoy

Quote from: Puckoon on February 12, 2009, 04:36:20 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: Puckoon on February 11, 2009, 07:03:35 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 11, 2009, 06:55:54 PM
Of course we all know that the British Army and the different guises of the local militia followed orders to the letter.

I wonder why only nationalists were interned in 1971? a minor discrepency?


No doubt they didnt. What does that have to do with Lynchbhoys assertion?

Does that make his assertion justifiable? Or is it still a huge mistruth?

For the context of this discussion I dont care what exactly the British armies, the loyalists or the republican movement did - there comes a time when the continued attempts by people from all sides to justify the unjustifiable becomes laughable at best.
we are not talking about justification we are talking about the ideology of the republicanmovement.
Never was it a strategy/motive/ethos/mantra etc call it what you will , to kill people purely because of religion.
End of

god help you if smiley faces put you off !

Fair enough ideology/ethos/mantra it is then. So would you agree that more often than it should that the ideology went right out the window?

Did the ideology include money from racketeering and drugs?
no, if people and instanced ocurred the were contrary to the mantra/ethos/ideology etc

as for racketeering and drugs, pre-ceasefire most of these drug groups were targetted (irrespective of religion) and generally kept at bay.
Obv not welcomed in republican circles. Certain 'rackets' went on - obv had to raise money somehow, but dont think selling of ciggarettes/diesel etc flouting the law really bothered too many given what else was going on.
though I think you know all this already.

Whose ideology was it for the british army to introduce drugs and drug selling into Derry city I wonder.
..........

Puckoon

Why then did so many things which were contrary to the republican ethos (lets just stick to that word!) get carried out by republican paramilitaries over the course of the troubles?

Rackets are not the selling of cigarrettes and/or diesel. Thats a neat sidestep- but a sidestep none the less. Im talking extortion, threat, and theft at the end of a gun. Hardly the ideals of a nation of equals?

What about the policing of their own communities by force, threat and violence? Now im not condemming, as there were instances when this served a greater good - but were these activities all part of a "republican ethos"?

I am not here to discuss the activities of the british government, and I would condemn them as quickly as I condem the events which you are trying to suggest were so infrequent and isolated that they didnt shatter into a thousand pieces this notion of republican ethos that you take as gospel.

On paper perhaps there was an ethos, an ideal. In real life during the troubles however, it more often than not went right out the window.

Maguire01

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Whose ideology was it for the british army to introduce drugs and drug selling into Derry city I wonder.
I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.

But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!

lynchbhoy

Quote from: Maguire01 on February 12, 2009, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Whose ideology was it for the british army to introduce drugs and drug selling into Derry city I wonder.
I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.

But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!
please explain as this one above all your others defies all known logic ! ! !
..........

Maguire01

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 12, 2009, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Whose ideology was it for the british army to introduce drugs and drug selling into Derry city I wonder.
I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.

But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!
please explain as this one above all your others defies all known logic ! ! !

It's not my logic, it's yours! I couldn't give a crap about ideals or the ethos - i'm more interested in actions and what actually happened. I don't think anyone should be allowed to hide behind an 'ideology' if their actions were inappropriate.

lynchbhoy

Quote from: Maguire01 on February 12, 2009, 05:24:54 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:18:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 12, 2009, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Whose ideology was it for the british army to introduce drugs and drug selling into Derry city I wonder.
I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.

But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!
please explain as this one above all your others defies all known logic ! ! !

It's not my logic, it's yours! I couldn't give a crap about ideals or the ethos - i'm more interested in actions and what actually happened. I don't think anyone should be allowed to hide behind an 'ideology' if their actions were inappropriate.

you are still not making sense on either count point there
1. explain\I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.

But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!

2.you obv still dont get the point that I am making for what seems like 100 pages now.
An ideology is an ideology. You are now talking about something off-tangent !
..........

Maguire01

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:42:42 PM
you are still not making sense on either count point there
1. explain\I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.
You're defending all republican actions by way of saying that the basic ideology was sound, so really the indiscretions don't matter so much. If so, surely someone else could defend all British actions using the same logic?

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:42:42 PM
But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!

2.you obv still dont get the point that I am making for what seems like 100 pages now.
An ideology is an ideology. You are now talking about something off-tangent !
An ideology is an ideology? Really? What wonderful insight!
Not quite sure what's off-tangent.

lynchbhoy

Quote from: Maguire01 on February 12, 2009, 06:05:15 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:42:42 PM
you are still not making sense on either count point there
1. explain\I'm sure they would tell you that their ideology/ethos/mantra is the defence of UK interests.
You're defending all republican actions by way of saying that the basic ideology was sound, so really the indiscretions don't matter so much. If so, surely someone else could defend all British actions using the same logic?

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:42:42 PM
But if we apply your logic, it doesn't really matter about any of their underhand or questionable practices, because they had their 'ethos'!

2.you obv still dont get the point that I am making for what seems like 100 pages now.
An ideology is an ideology. You are now talking about something off-tangent !
An ideology is an ideology? Really? What wonderful insight!
Not quite sure what's off-tangent.
again
applying what logic to this, I dont see any connection or logic in what you have said
please explain

correct an ideology is an ideology and thats just that - its not any blueprint for forthcoming actions - do you not think?
I am not defending anything apart from that these few incidents do not alter the actual ethos/ideology etc etc

what is your point regarding underhand or questionable practices ? how is this relevent?
..........

Evil Genius

Quote from: lynchbhoy on February 12, 2009, 05:42:42 PM
An ideology is an ideology.
Right, so which part of their "ideology" was served by Enniskillen/Bloody Friday/Darkley/Warrington/La Mon/Birmingham/Tullyvallen/Jean McConville/Claudy/La Mon/Abercorn or any of the countless other barbaric atrocities where entirely innocent men, women and children were shot, tortured or blown to pieces?

Where does the "human bomb" technique fit into this ideology? Or were these just some more "isolated incidents"?

At least the Taliban have the courage to blow themselves up with their human bombs, not kidnap some poor harmless individual and hold his terrified family hostage, while they tie him to the seat of his car and order him to drive a live bomb across town to some army base...



http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.irish/2005-08/msg01952.html
Thursday August 11, 2005

Republicans hijacked a delivery driver, planted a bomb in his car and
ordered him to park outside a police station in county Armagh, politicians
said yesterday.

The driver was threatened at gunpoint late on Tuesday night as explosives
were placed on the back seat of his car in Lurgan. He was told to drive to
the police station but abandoned his car outside a Gaelic football club
about 400 yards from the station.

Police responding to the alert were attacked by youths who threw more than
30 petrol bombs as well as bricks, bottles and ball bearings. Seven
officers were injured and one was treated in hospital.

24/10/1990 -

While his family was held hostage in their Londonderry home, Patrick
Gillespie, RC, 42, married, 3 children was forced to drive a car loaded
with a bomb into the Buncrana Road checkpoint in Coshquin. The explosion
killed Patsy as well as 5 young soldiers from the Kings Regiment. Stephen
Burrows 30, from Blackpool. He left behind a wife and a 3 year old son.
Stephen Beachem, 20, from Warrington, Cheshire Vincent Scott, 21, from
Walton, Liverpool David Sweeney, 19, from Widnes, Cheshire Paul Worrall,
23, from Runcorn, Cheshire As the bomb exploded, gunmen opened fire from
the safe haven across the border. Four years earlier Patsy had narrowly
escaped death when he was forced to drive another human bomb to a local
Army base. RC Bishop of Derry, Dr Edward Daly accused the IRA of "crossing
a new threshold of evil" 17 civilians were injured in the attack.

24/10/90 -

68 year old James McEvoy escaped injured after being forced to drive a bomb
into a checkpoint at Killeen, outside Newry. Cyril Smith, 21, P, from the
Royal Irish Rangers, died in the explosion, 13 of his colleagues were
injured. He was from Carrickfergus. At the inquest into the atrocity James
McEvoy said he was awakened in the middle of the night to see two figures
standing over him wearing balaclavas. They blindfolded him before taking
him some distance. He was ordered to drive a car towards the checkpoint and
if he did not comply two of his sons would be murdered. He was to tell the
soldiers there was a bomb and they had 40 minutes to get clear. In reality
though, within seconds of Mr. McEvoy abandoning the car, the bomb was
detonated. James McEvoy died 7 months later. A relative said he "never got
over what happened that night in October".

24/10/90 -

Another Proxy attempt on the same day at Lisanelly Army base, Omagh, failed
when the main bomb didn't explode. A man had been strapped to the car seat
and forced to drive the bomb in, while his wife and 7 year old child were
held hostage.

22/11/90 -

At around 9:30pm, a number of armed and masked men took over a house in
Newtownbutler. A man was taken out while his elderly parents were tied up
in a toilet. He was driven to the IRA's safe haven of the Irish Republic
were they held him in a derelict house. From there he was taken away in a
Toyota pickup truck accompanied by two armed men. He was made to drive the
truck to Annaghmartin, Fermanagh checkpoint and told that the truck carried
a bomb on a 5 minute timer. At the checkpoint he shouted a warning and
there was a small explosion. The bomb itself failed to go off. On
examination, the bomb contained 3,500lb of homemade explosives, the biggest
IRA bomb to date. Had it exploded it would have caused enormous havoc,
destruction and certain death.

3/2/91 -

IRA force a man to drive a 500lb human bomb into a UDR base in Magherafelt,
Co. Londonderry by holding his wife hostage in another car. The driver
shouted a warning and escaped before the bomb exploded. Part of the base
and 50 surrounding houses were badly damaged. 3 members of the man's
company had already been murdered by nationalists because the firm survived
by building for the security forces.

24/3/93 -

On the day before John Hume and Gerry Adams issued their first joint
statement, the IRA exploded a one ton bomb in Bishopsgate, London. The bomb
caused damage estimated at upwards of a billion pounds. On the same day two
taxi drivers were used as human bombs in nationalist attempts to blow up
London, it failed when the drivers managed to abandon their taxi's and
shout warnings.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Puckoon

It could be said that the actions render the ethos useless.

If I constantly preached honesty and good will, yet when I was short a few quid I robbed old ladies - would it be ok because I had an ethos of peace? Or could people say - listen horse youre full of shite.

gaaboard

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It has long since moved from its initial subject and spiralled downwards.
Attempts to re-start the squabbling elsewhere will incur warnings/bans.