The Magdalene Sisters/laundries/church control in Ireland

[pintsofguinness]

Interesting question Hardy, I cant see the meat thing though, animals have been killed for food since the beginning of time.

I think a lot of things will be commonplace in 50 years, discrimination of any kind towards homosexuals will be gone (I think there are correlations between how homosexauls are viewed now and how an unmarried mother was viewed 50 years ago). 
Transexuals will be common. 
Designer babies will be common.  - bad
I with you that the age of consent, I could see it being lowered to 13 or 14. (very wrong imo and yes, we will be right on this one)
Sadly, abortions in Ireland will be common. 

The big one though, future generations will curse us for our pollution. 

[ONeill]

- The right to self expression and freedom of the individual will reach its logical conclusion(s) - expect to see people defecating in the streets, for instance.

Jeepers, they're forward thinking folk we have in Armagh today. I've a new-found respect for the Orchard.

[carnaross]

I first saw the film a few years ago and again last night. I have to say that, prior to first seeing the film, I had no idea these places existed, I'm ashamed to say. I found the film very powerful and when, at the end in the credits, it was stated the last laundry closed as recently as 1996, I was shocked.

I think it was typical of some parts of the Irish psyche (out of sight, out of mind and head in the sand syndromes). I suspect the laundry was more suited to poorer families as those with money avaiable would be able to send their daughters to England for abortions. I can find no mention of any action against the men who fathered these children, again typical in all societies.

Also surprising in today's times, I find no residents of the laundries seeking reparation as many other victims of abuse from the purveyors of the Catholic religion are now embarked upon. Surely, the residents, if anybody, have an excellent case.

[Evil Genius]

i sometimes wonder if we are judging these events in the moral,social and informational context of the present time, and forgetting that things were very different back then in terms of information, opportunity,and moral outlook.

Of course morality and social attitudes e.g. as regards homosexuality, divorce, children born out of wedlock etc have changed in recent decades.

But the point is that the physical and sexual abuse, the financial exploitation and deprivation etc which went on in these Magdalen Laundries was regarded as wrong, even sinful, in the 1950's etc. Which is why it was covered up so carefully. Had such treatment been "acceptable" to the families of the abused girls specifically, or the public generally, the Church wouldn't have had to keep it hidden from the outside world, or go to such lengths to keep the victims quiet, even years after their torment had ended.

In the end, to punish a teenage girl for being raped, for instance, whilst turning a blind eye to the man who raped her, is utterly immoral and contrary to the professed teachings of the Church, whether we are talking the 1st Century, the 21st Century, or any point in between.

[Canalman]

Lads don't also forget that the poor lads from Artane didn't have their qualifications there recognized by the Trade Unions so they were denied entry to trades and apprenticeships AFTER leaving these homes. Emigrant ships and poverty was to be their only future I'm sad to say.
Very easy to solely blame the Brothers for all what happened. Alot more to it imo.

[Main Street]

Pints - you know that that was NEVER going to happen. It was the times they lived in - don't condemn them for that - surely you can scratch your head and wonder about it but don't condemn them.

I do blame them, how can anyone be so stupid, so brain washed!
Same with the sex abuse allegations, children didn't tell because their parents wouldn't believe that about the priest?

I just dont get it.  I cant even think of a modern day example that would explain it or make me understand.

Why are you looking for someone in particular to blame?
I don't think you quite grasp the impact of the  "children didn't tell because their parents wouldn't believe" thing.

After a scandal shit hit the fan in our home town a few years ago, I was trying to explain to my mother  (who was looking for somebody to blame or find some scapegoat) about how the child abuse could continue to operate on a sustained level in any town, because of a shared social complicity.
I tried to explain that not only would a kid not be believed but would be beaten up for trying to explain. I tried to tell her that the biggest "sin" inflicted was a retarded social structure where a kid would not to be believed by one's own parents. That no matter how horrific the abuse, not even one's own parents would listen, never mind believe. Paralysing fear kept a kid's mouth shut.
She could not accept that abused children wouldn't be believed. So I said, 'you know so and so' a deceased family member and some sort of a Christian brother  'he was a pervert',  'you know all those times he invited me out, those were times he was building up to a futile attempt to try it on'. I got no response, she tried to change the subject, I asked her 'do you not believe me?' still no response, I said I have been you son for so many years, I am an adult and still you don't believe me, what chance has a kid got.

Ireland in the 50's the 60's the 70's and the 80's was more socially retarded, emotionally retarded, educationally retarded and religiously retarded society, all sorts of abuse could thrive in that atmosphere.

[From the Bunker]

Allot of us young lads (and Lassies) simply do not understand the Power the clergy held. They controlled Schools, Dance Halls, Football clubs etc. If you were a politician and came up against them you would be criticised from the pulpit - which meant losing your seat. This was POWER. I used to go to Church in the wife's home place in the midlands. The Parish Priest there was of old stock and you could see the way he approached things with his sermons that the 50's way was still with him. Strangely i used to love going to church there (in a perverse way) as it was like a time tunnel to the past.

Characteristics that he had were;
He saw everybody as below himself.
You are all going to hell was his usual theme.
Mass was serious and there would be no light moments such as a smile.
In order to be religious you must look miserable.
Weddings were about how the woman must obey the man and they should have hundreds of children.
He refused to have children baptised where the couple were not married (Lets forget that Mary was a single mother when she originally was carrying Jesus).
He would only mingle with a certain class of people.

He has since passed away to be replaced by completely opposite radical priest. Now here is the punch line. Most of the older people in the parish cannot accept this new priest and would rather the 50's

[Lar Naparka]

i sometimes wonder if we are judging these events in the moral,social and informational context of the present time, and forgetting that things were very different back then in terms of information, opportunity,and moral outlook.

Of course morality and social attitudes e.g. as regards homosexuality, divorce, children born out of wedlock etc have changed in recent decades.

But the point is that the physical and sexual abuse, the financial exploitation and deprivation etc which went on in these Magdalen Laundries was regarded as wrong, even sinful, in the 1950's etc. Which is why it was covered up so carefully. Had such treatment been "acceptable" to the families of the abused girls specifically, or the public generally, the Church wouldn't have had to keep it hidden from the outside world, or go to such lengths to keep the victims quiet, even years after their torment had ended.

In the end, to punish a teenage girl for being raped, for instance, whilst turning a blind eye to the man who raped her, is utterly immoral and contrary to the professed teachings of the Church, whether we are talking the 1st Century, the 21st Century, or any point in between.

In all seriousness, it didn't exist at all!
At least officially it was never averted to.  I'm afraid it was a case of the three wise monkeys again; see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.
Girls who got pregnant were considered to be responsible every time. Parents would feel it brought shame on the family name and if they hadn't the resources or the desire to send the poor girl to relatives in England or in large towns like Dublin they would consent to having her removed from public view. The only one who had no say in the matter was the victim. After the child was born, it was removed from the girl's keeping and the intention was that she would never see it again.
You have to keep in mind those girls and women were inferior beings. People who objected to what went on inside a Magdalene laundry kept quite about it. Most people in any event saw no wrong in what was happening before their eyes.
It certainly was a rough life for growing girls and to a degree for boys also. No one even mentioned the facts of life let alone give kids any sort of sex instruction.
It was the norm then to have large families. Sleeping space was invariably cramped with adolescent boys and girls sharing a common bedroom. As often as not a blanket strung across the room was the only privacy afforded to the girls at their end of the room.
Several older people have told me that incest was far more common than is generally admitted. It might not be siblings who carried out the rapes either.  Adult relatives were often culpable and indeed members of the clergy were prone to succumb to temptation as well.
Even in a case where a complete stranger carried out such an act, the victim was likely to be held responsible.
For me, the politicians and state authorities knew full well what was going on but chose to ignore it. What they didn't like, they didn't see.
Children placed in institutions under the care of Christian Brothers and the likes suffered the same fate. I recall reading some correspondence between a schools' inspector who visited Letterfrack centre (Galway) in the 1930s and his immediate superior at the Department of Education.
The inspector wrote in to notify his superiors about the widespread beatings the boys were getting and the answer back was to ignore it as there was no alternative to having the brothers look after the children!
The same type of logic applied to unmarried mothers.
State and Church in general felt that pregnancies outside of wedlock were too much of a drain on resources and resorted to an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

[Lar Naparka]

Allot of us young lads (and Lassies) simply do not understand the Power the clergy held. They controlled Schools, Dance Halls, Football clubs etc. If you were a politician and came up against them you would be criticised from the pulpit - which meant losing your seat. This was POWER. I used to go to Church in the wife's home place in the midlands. The Parish Priest there was of old stock and you could see the way he approached things with his sermons that the 50's way was still with him. Strangely i used to love going to church there (in a perverse way) as it was like a time tunnel to the past.

Characteristics that he had were;
He saw everybody as below himself.
You are all going to hell was his usual theme.
Mass was serious and there would be no light moments such as a smile.
In order to be religious you must look miserable.
Weddings were about how the woman must obey the man and they should have hundreds of children.
He refused to have children baptised where the couple were not married (Lets forget that Mary was a single mother when she originally was carrying Jesus).
He would only mingle with a certain class of people.

He has since passed away to be replaced by completely opposite radical priest. Now here is the punch line. Most of the older people in the parish cannot accept this new priest and would rather the 50's

Just saw this post as I put up my last one.
Powerful stuff FoB!
I can identify with every line.

[pintsofguinness]

After a scandal shit hit the fan in our home town a few years ago, I was trying to explain to my mother  (who was looking for somebody to blame or find some scapegoat) about how the child abuse could continue to operate on a sustained level in any town, because of a shared social complicity.
I tried to explain that not only would a kid not be believed but would be beaten up for trying to explain. I tried to tell her that the biggest "sin" inflicted was a retarded social structure where a kid would not to be believed by one's own parents. That no matter how horrific the abuse, not even one's own parents would listen, never mind believe. Paralysing fear kept a kid's mouth shut.
She could not accept that abused children wouldn't be believed. So I said, 'you know so and so' a deceased family member and some sort of a Christian brother  'he was a pervert',  'you know all those times he invited me out, those were times he was building up to a futile attempt to try it on'. I got no response, she tried to change the subject, I asked her 'do you not believe me?' still no response, I said I have been you son for so many years, I am an adult and still you don't believe me, what chance has a kid got.

Ireland in the 50's the 60's the 70's and the 80's was more socially retarded, emotionally retarded, educationally retarded and religiously retarded society, all sorts of abuse could thrive in that atmosphere.

I understand that, but what I dont understand is why or how parents wouldnt/didnt believe their children.  It's just beyond me.

[orangeman]

After a scandal shit hit the fan in our home town a few years ago, I was trying to explain to my mother  (who was looking for somebody to blame or find some scapegoat) about how the child abuse could continue to operate on a sustained level in any town, because of a shared social complicity.
I tried to explain that not only would a kid not be believed but would be beaten up for trying to explain. I tried to tell her that the biggest "sin" inflicted was a retarded social structure where a kid would not to be believed by one's own parents. That no matter how horrific the abuse, not even one's own parents would listen, never mind believe. Paralysing fear kept a kid's mouth shut.
She could not accept that abused children wouldn't be believed. So I said, 'you know so and so' a deceased family member and some sort of a Christian brother  'he was a pervert',  'you know all those times he invited me out, those were times he was building up to a futile attempt to try it on'. I got no response, she tried to change the subject, I asked her 'do you not believe me?' still no response, I said I have been you son for so many years, I am an adult and still you don't believe me, what chance has a kid got.

Ireland in the 50's the 60's the 70's and the 80's was more socially retarded, emotionally retarded, educationally retarded and religiously retarded society, all sorts of abuse could thrive in that atmosphere.

I understand that, but what I dont understand is why or how parents wouldnt/didnt believe their children.  It's just beyond me.

They were brainwashed - scared shitless of authority and what others might say - yes it's hard to understand but it was a different era.

[pintsofguinness]

That's shocking, down right murder.

[pintsofguinness]

And the apologists will come on making excuses now 
Quite shocking, imagine what it would be if abortion was available here.

[dublinfella]

Pints - you know that that was NEVER going to happen. It was the times they lived in - don't condemn them for that - surely you can scratch your head and wonder about it but don't condemn them.

Happened regular enough in Dublin. Priests occasionally got a good hiding too.

[dublinfella]

And the apologists will come on making excuses now 
Quite shocking, imagine what it would be if abortion was available here.

the numbers would be the exact same and we wouldn't hypocritically and cynically be exporting our problems?