http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
QuoteMr Muir added: "For Northern Ireland to prosper and overcome our divisions we need a new society where businesses are willing to cater for all, regardless of religious views, political opinion, disability, race, age, sexual orientation, marital status, gender and other backgrounds."
I'd love to know if he really said that as opposed to bunging it in a press release.
Quote from: Zip Code on July 08, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
A clear case of trying to have your cake and eat it.
Not to self. Not all Sesame Street characters are really just cute and cuddly.
My favourite is the Count.
One. A one a gay a sheep a jumpin ova de fence.
Two. A two a gay a sheep a jumpin ova de fence.
Three. A three a gay a sheep a jumpin ova de fence.
etc
etc
etc
Quote from: Denn Forever on July 08, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
Not to self. Not all Sesame Street characters are really just cute and cuddly.
Bert and Earnie took bath's together thats how i found it out. Was Hannibal from A-team aswell?
A spokesperson for Queerspace has denied they have brought the case due to a soggy bottom.
In fairness the bakery is full of sh*t. Does anyone think they'd have refused a cake for a bar mitzvah? It could hardly tally with their christian beliefs either...
Was it a fudge cake?
Quote from: Zip Code on July 08, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
You're right, the bigots are well within their rights. Typical gay people kicking up a storm by being different :o
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 02:37:11 PM
In fairness the bakery is full of sh*t. Does anyone think they'd have refused a cake for a bar mitzvah? It could hardly tally with their christian beliefs either...
Indeed.
Quote from: deiseach on July 08, 2014, 01:49:26 PM
QuoteMr Muir added: "For Northern Ireland to prosper and overcome our divisions we need a new society where businesses are willing to cater for all, regardless of religious views, political opinion, disability, race, age, sexual orientation, marital status, gender and other backgrounds."
I'd love to know if he really said that as opposed to bunging it in a press release.
Could they not do a population swap like they did before and bring in some more tolerant people from Scotland in exchange for all the lost Protestants ?
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 08, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
You're right, the bigots are well within their rights. Typical gay people kicking up a storm by being different :o
there were acting the bollicks,must be some size of cake for all they were looking on it,i have no problem with being gay but dont try and shove it down people throat
Quote from: cockahoop on July 08, 2014, 03:15:51 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 08, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
You're right, the bigots are well within their rights. Typical gay people kicking up a storm by being different :o
there were acting the bollicks,must be some size of cake for all they were looking on it,i have no problem with being gay but dont try and shove it down people throat
So where does society draw the line?
Can this shop refuse to make cakes for catholics? Polish people? Black people?
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2014, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: cockahoop on July 08, 2014, 03:15:51 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 08, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
You're right, the bigots are well within their rights. Typical gay people kicking up a storm by being different :o
there were acting the bollicks,must be some size of cake for all they were looking on it,i have no problem with being gay but dont try and shove it down people throat
So where does society draw the line?
Can this shop refuse to make cakes for catholics? Polish people? Black people?
if a catholic went into a bakery on the shankill road and asked for a cake to be decorated in green white and orange with up the pope wrote on it what response would you expect?
As in the case with the B and B owners, extremely hypocritical if they take any action against a bakery as they will be infringing on their religious views to satisfy anothers sexual views.
Quote from: nrico2006 on July 08, 2014, 03:27:50 PM
As in the case with the B and B owners, extremely hypocritical if they take any action against a bakery as they will be infringing on their religious views to satisfy anothers sexual views.
WTF?
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Quote from: cockahoop on July 08, 2014, 03:15:51 PM
there were acting the bollicks,must be some size of cake for all they were looking on it,i have no problem with being gay but dont try and shove it down people throat
How is ordering a cake from a bakery shoving it down your throat or anyone else's?
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Oh there'd be no bither getting a tricolour up Sandy Row or the Shankill at this time of year, tyhey sell loads of them. For burning on bonfires.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Its not similar logic, its twisted logic.
Using a clear example of accepted bigotry as your barometer of an inclusive society makes no sense whatsoever.
Would a gay bakery make a "Save Ulster from Sodomy" cake?
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Its not similar logic, its twisted logic.
Using a clear example of accepted bigotry as your barometer of an inclusive society makes no sense whatsoever.
Well it's not a barometer of inclusive society as we don't live in an inclusive society.
Would I like everywhere and everyone to be inclusive - yes I would. If July teaches you anything it's that I(and presumably you) live in a society which is not all inclusive.
A person put something on facebook which I would tend to agree with... I think these people should be boycotted but I don't think they should have legal action against them.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
Would a gay bakery make a "Save Ulster from Sodomy" cake?
A cake for a homophobic campaign? Assuming there was such a thing as 'a gay bakery', they probably wouldnt. Do you still think thats a good anlaogy? Hopefully not.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:02:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
Would a gay bakery make a "Save Ulster from Sodomy" cake?
A cake for a homophobic campaign? Assuming there was such a thing as 'a gay bakery', they probably wouldnt. Do you still think thats a good anlaogy? Hopefully not.
It is a different political opinion and so a fair analogy.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Its not similar logic, its twisted logic.
Using a clear example of accepted bigotry as your barometer of an inclusive society makes no sense whatsoever.
Well it's not a barometer of inclusive society as we don't live in an inclusive society.
Would I like everywhere and everyone to be inclusive - yes I would. If July teaches you anything it's that I(and presumably you) live in a society which is not all inclusive.
A person put something on facebook which I would tend to agree with... I think these people should be boycotted but I don't think they should have legal action against them.
You used it as your barometer. It isn't an inclusive society, but we still need to aim for it to be so. Should we accept homophobia, just because sectarianism is rife?
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:02:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
Would a gay bakery make a "Save Ulster from Sodomy" cake?
A cake for a homophobic campaign? Assuming there was such a thing as 'a gay bakery', they probably wouldnt. Do you still think thats a good anlaogy? Hopefully not.
It is a different political opinion and so a fair analogy.
Homophobia is a political opinion in the same way racism is a political opinion. THAT is a fair analogy. Yours isn't.
Unfortunately they are perfectly entitled to refuse to create a slogan on a cake that they don't want to, provided the refusal of service is solely on grounds of disagreement with their own creation.
They should also be prepared to now reap what they sow in terms of boycotts/lawful protest/loss of custom. Their choice.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Its not similar logic, its twisted logic.
Using a clear example of accepted bigotry as your barometer of an inclusive society makes no sense whatsoever.
Well it's not a barometer of inclusive society as we don't live in an inclusive society.
Would I like everywhere and everyone to be inclusive - yes I would. If July teaches you anything it's that I(and presumably you) live in a society which is not all inclusive.
A person put something on facebook which I would tend to agree with... I think these people should be boycotted but I don't think they should have legal action against them.
You used it as your barometer. It isn't an inclusive society, but we still need to aim for it to be so. Should we accept homophobia, just because sectarianism is rife?
Where would you draw the line? Do we prosecute everyone who doesn't show that they tolerate everyone and everything?
Why in this particular scenario could they not have a) highlighted it so the shop got the bad publicity and b) went to another shop?
When you are serving the public, you should not be allowed to discriminate on the usual grounds. Thats where I'd draw the line. Where would you have it?
From my reading of it, they did both a) [in the correct way, might I add, by contacting the equality commission rather than the papers] and b).
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:24:10 PM
When you are serving the public, you should not be allowed to discriminate on the usual grounds.
So what grounds should you be allowed to discriminate on then?
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:10:44 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:02:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
Would a gay bakery make a "Save Ulster from Sodomy" cake?
A cake for a homophobic campaign? Assuming there was such a thing as 'a gay bakery', they probably wouldnt. Do you still think thats a good anlaogy? Hopefully not.
It is a different political opinion and so a fair analogy.
Homophobia is a political opinion in the same way racism is a political opinion. THAT is a fair analogy. Yours isn't.
As always with these debates there is an immediate use of "homophobia" implying a motivation for those opposed to legal change in marriage, which pretty much discredits the whole argument and proves my point that those making the case here would not do any different if asked to bake a cake stating the opposite view.
There is a difference between refusing to do business with people and refusing to prepare propaganda in support of a political cause you do not believe in. Would the Newsletter print SF election literature?
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:24:10 PM
When you are serving the public, you should not be allowed to discriminate on the usual grounds. Thats where I'd draw the line. Where would you have it?
From my reading of it, they did both a) [in the correct way, might I add, by contacting the equality commission rather than the papers] and b).
Is usual grounds legal speak or your speak? (That's a genuine question as I don't know if this is your lingo or legal lingo.)
Quote from: Rossfan on July 08, 2014, 04:25:34 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:24:10 PM
When you are serving the public, you should not be allowed to discriminate on the usual grounds.
So what grounds should you be allowed to discriminate on then?
Grounds that you've a good reason for. No motorcycle helmets for example...
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:24:10 PM
When you are serving the public, you should not be allowed to discriminate on the usual grounds. Thats where I'd draw the line. Where would you have it?
From my reading of it, they did both a) [in the correct way, might I add, by contacting the equality commission rather than the papers] and b).
Is usual grounds legal speak or your speak? (That's a genuine question as I don't know if this is your lingo or legal lingo.)
I'd started to type race, creed, sexuality etc, but I just wrote the usual grounds because I'm lazy...
This is what general manager Daniel McArthur said - "It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."
Good to know they are on solid, logical grounds by basing their views on a book made up by lads over 2000 years ago. Anyway, isn't it just the old testament where homosexuality is referred to and Jesus, if he did exist, never mentioned it at all?
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 04:31:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:10:44 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 04:05:16 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:02:18 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM
Would a gay bakery make a "Save Ulster from Sodomy" cake?
A cake for a homophobic campaign? Assuming there was such a thing as 'a gay bakery', they probably wouldnt. Do you still think thats a good anlaogy? Hopefully not.
It is a different political opinion and so a fair analogy.
Homophobia is a political opinion in the same way racism is a political opinion. THAT is a fair analogy. Yours isn't.
As always with these debates there is an immediate use of "homophobia" implying a motivation for those opposed to legal change in marriage, which pretty much discredits the whole argument and proves my point that those making the case here would not do any different if asked to bake a cake stating the opposite view.
There is a difference between refusing to do business with people and refusing to prepare propaganda in support of a political cause you do not believe in. Would the Newsletter print SF election literature?
I agree that often labels are unfairly attached and used to shout down those with opposite views, but I dont think it is unfair in this case.
Im not sure the Newsletter prints itself, but to take your point, all inequality has to be seen through the eyes of those who feel they were discriminated against. Black people can call each other n***a and it isnt a problem, its not the word as much as the intent, and the hurt caused. Would SF be as hurt by the Newsletter not printing literature? Would it cause them as much damage? Would they report it? If they did, and the Equality commission considered it to be discriminatory, then if the News Letter decided to fight the ruling, then we'd have the same scenario.
Its worth pointing out that (in my reading of it), the Equality commission havent initiated legal action. They wrote out asking how they planned on recitfying the situation - an apology for hurt caused, an explanation of their views may have sufficed (and may yet). The story isnt that they refused to serve, this happened ages ago, nor is it even the Equality Commissions letter. Its them choosing to contest it - it seems to me its more likely they who went to the media.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:24:10 PM
When you are serving the public, you should not be allowed to discriminate on the usual grounds. Thats where I'd draw the line. Where would you have it?
From my reading of it, they did both a) [in the correct way, might I add, by contacting the equality commission rather than the papers] and b).
Is usual grounds legal speak or your speak? (That's a genuine question as I don't know if this is your lingo or legal lingo.)
I'd started to type race, creed, sexuality etc, but I just wrote the usual grounds because I'm lazy...
Ah right...
Well I don't know where they would stand legally but I would be surprised if there were laws to dictate things like this.
Make your point fine and I don't disagree with them but going to court etc is a bit much.
I , mostly, agree with you but the world at times has gone a bit PC mad and I think this is a case of it.
Hold up here..... Wtf is a Christian bakery anyway and how does that differ from a normal bakery?
Quote from: thebigfella on July 08, 2014, 05:11:18 PM
Hold up here..... Wtf is a Christian bakery anyway and how does that differ from a normal bakery?
It only bakes a locka loaves but can feed 5,000 people with them :P :P
Away for my coat.
Quote from: 5 Sams on July 08, 2014, 05:16:43 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 08, 2014, 05:11:18 PM
Hold up here..... Wtf is a Christian bakery anyway and how does that differ from a normal bakery?
It only bakes a locka loaves but can feed 5,000 people with them :P :P
Away for my coat.
Speciality is unleavened bread
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
If you apply a similar logic to Rosa Parks, you see where you end up??
Everyone is entitled to their personal views but if you supply a service to the public, you have to supply to all in society equally
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
If you apply a similar logic to Rosa Parks, you see where you end up??
Everyone is entitled to their personal views but if you supply a service to the public, you have to supply to all in society equally
Says who? Is there a law on this?.
I genuinely am not sure if there is...
If it goes to court then I guess it will be interesting to see what the court says.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 04:14:17 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 04:08:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 08, 2014, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
Its not similar logic, its twisted logic.
Using a clear example of accepted bigotry as your barometer of an inclusive society makes no sense whatsoever.
Well it's not a barometer of inclusive society as we don't live in an inclusive society.
Would I like everywhere and everyone to be inclusive - yes I would. If July teaches you anything it's that I(and presumably you) live in a society which is not all inclusive.
A person put something on facebook which I would tend to agree with... I think these people should be boycotted but I don't think they should have legal action against them.
You used it as your barometer. It isn't an inclusive society, but we still need to aim for it to be so. Should we accept homophobia, just because sectarianism is rife?
Where would you draw the line? Do we prosecute everyone who doesn't show that they tolerate everyone and everything?
Why in this particular scenario could they not have a) highlighted it so the shop got the bad publicity and b) went to another shop?
Probably because they were looking some handy cash.
"It asked us to propose how we would recompense the customer for this discrimination. It also said it would pursue legal proceedings if we didn't respond within a seven-day time period," Mr McArthur said.
Quote from: cockahoop on July 08, 2014, 03:25:08 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2014, 03:19:47 PM
Quote from: cockahoop on July 08, 2014, 03:15:51 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 08, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581)
He knew it would be refused but make sure you ram your views down everyone's throat. Why did he not go elsewhere to get his cake.
You're right, the bigots are well within their rights. Typical gay people kicking up a storm by being different :o
there were acting the bollicks,must be some size of cake for all they were looking on it,i have no problem with being gay but dont try and shove it down people throat
So where does society draw the line?
Can this shop refuse to make cakes for catholics? Polish people? Black people?
if a catholic went into a bakery on the shankill road and asked for a cake to be decorated in green white and orange with up the pope wrote on it what response would you expect?
"Where's your money then, ya Fenian scum & none of that Euro crap"?
Believing in a God is one thing but taking the bible as the word of God, especially the old testament is patently nonsense. Anybody running a bakery on the basis of the bible is a nut job.
I'm technically a catholic but I don't believe there's a god. However, I've no problem with those that do believe there's a god but I do have an issue with people making decisions based on what's in the bible. If you are saying that it's literally the word of God and must be obeyed then you don't believe in evolution and you do believe in stoning and the like. A decent human being, religious or otherwise, doesn't refuse to bake a cake for a gay person. Using the Old Testament to justify it is just loo la stuff.
The message on the cake was fairly innocuous, if it was something more explicit or something you could maybe understand offence being taken
If this fruit cake was living his life according to the the Harry Potter books would you think that strange? I'm not telling people how to live by the way but I am giving an opinion on the daftness of this guy. Many religious people don't live their lives based on a literal interpretation of the bible so being a Christian or not is neither here nor there.
QuoteI think the bakery should be within their rights to refuse to do business with whoever they want.
So you think they should be allowed to refuse Catholics, blacks, women and disabled people if they want? You were fine with the no blacks, Irish or dogs signs in Britain I presume?
Quote from: Zulu on July 08, 2014, 08:20:12 PM
Believing in a God is one thing but taking the bible as the word of God, especially the old testament is patently nonsense. Anybody running a bakery on the basis of the bible is a nut job.
This is very true
If a nightclub can have a bouncer at the door turning people away because they don't like the look of them then why can't the bakery refuse?
Quote from: EC Unique on July 08, 2014, 10:09:36 PM
If a nightclub can have a bouncer at the door turning people away because they don't like the look of them then why can't the bakery refuse?
Is the bouncer allowed to turn away people because they are gay or black or muslim or catholic?
Quote from: J70 on July 08, 2014, 10:15:49 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 08, 2014, 10:09:36 PM
If a nightclub can have a bouncer at the door turning people away because they don't like the look of them then why can't the bakery refuse?
Is the bouncer allowed to turn away people because they are gay or black or muslim or catholic?
I think the technical term is that they reserve the right to refuse entry so basically yes to the above. Just don't say it. As somebody else said the company was just to honest.
I'd expect that if this were to go to court, the legal argument would centre around whether they were refused because they were gay (which I'd assume is illegal) or because they were offended by the message (which may not be)
Quote from: Zulu on July 08, 2014, 09:45:30 PM
If this fruit cake
It wasn't a fruit cake it was a cake for a fruit.
/Jim
Asher's in Abbott's Cross was the bakery of choice for Nortel employees. Catholics and cream buns alike :)
If a straight person was refused a request to bake a cake, one which contained messages of support for gay marriage, would it really have become an issue?
I'm guessing not.
To be honest, while equality is a human right, then surely so is free trade a human right.
Personally I can't work how it's okay for a members club (bar, tennis, golf) to refuse my entry or patronage, or why a restaurant can refuse my children, or why it's okay for Victoria Beckham to not make jeans beyond waist size 32" *, or why car manufacturers can ignore the needs of paraplegics, or why ANY trader is forced to restrict his opening hours and therefore trading potential with shift workers on a Sunday - yet it's not okay for a manufacturer such as Ashers to decline a sale.
IMHO the Equality Commission could do everyone a favour in instances such as this, and remind minority groups to keep their powder dry for situations when their actual rights as humans are affected or afflicted. which is not the case here.
* I'm guessing she doesn't make big-sized jeans
I don't have any sneering attitude about his faith and have made that quite clear. I do however have an issue with someone using the bible to justify discriminatory actions. If he views the old testament as the word of god then he believes we came from Adam and Eve and that he would be justified in stoning people for various 'crimes'.
If you believe in a god, fine, but if you are running a bakery on the basis of the old testament then that is daft and refusing to make a cake for person based on what the old testament says is worthy of criticism. Do you believe being a Christian is to live your life by the teachings of the old testament?
The Old Testament is neither here nor there in this, it is not an issue with anything in particular to do with the Bible.
He justified his decision by referencing what the bible said.
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 10:24:12 PM
I'd expect that if this were to go to court, the legal argument would centre around whether they were refused because they were gay (which I'd assume is illegal) or because they were offended by the message (which may not be)
My take on it as well. If a straight couple walked in the same bakery and asked for the same cake and the bakery made the cake as requested then it has discriminated against the original customer as they have refused to provide him with a service that they are prepared to offer to straight people. However if the bakery's stance (which i assume it is) is to refuse any customer regardless or sex, race, religion or sexuality a cake which contains a message they find to be offensive then IMO they are perfectly within their right to do so.
The difference with the B&B case was the owners refused to allow a gay couple to share the same room however they would allow for straight couples to do the same. Therefore they refused a particular group of people a service that they would offer to anybody else based on their sexuality which is discrimination.
Quote from: Corner Forward on July 09, 2014, 08:17:32 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 10:24:12 PM
I'd expect that if this were to go to court, the legal argument would centre around whether they were refused because they were gay (which I'd assume is illegal) or because they were offended by the message (which may not be)
My take on it as well. If a straight couple walked in the same bakery and asked for the same cake and the bakery made the cake as requested then it has discriminated against the original customer as they have refused to provide him with a service that they are prepared to offer to straight people. However if the bakery's stance (which i assume it is) is to refuse any customer regardless or sex, race, religion or sexuality a cake which contains a message they find to be offensive then IMO they are perfectly within their right to do so.
The difference with the B&B case was the owners refused to allow a gay couple to share the same room however they would allow for straight couples to do the same. Therefore they refused a particular group of people a service that they would offer to anybody else based on their sexuality which is discrimination.
That would be my opinion as well, the bakery didn't refuse service to people because they are gay or black or muslim or catholic, they refused to do a a decoration on a cake which they had a strong issue with.
Maybe the cake has a case?
There was a request for the bakery to offer compensation followed by a threat of legal action.
That shows a lack of respect towards conservative people in business who have radically different social and religious views. It's precisely this type of aggressive action is why I wouldn't support gay rights activism in the form of Queerspace or why I would refuse (if asked) to do something for them to further such anti social agendas. And that has nothing at all to do with discrimination against gays.
Would you support their action if they had refused a cake celebrating Rosa Parks action, because in this case, their 'radically different social and religous views' meant they viewed blacks as a sub-race?
Going by what you're saying, you would, and if there was a row about it in the papers, you'd then avoid doing anything for anti-racism groups (if asked), or support any anti racist activism.
Fair enough.
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
If you apply a similar logic to Rosa Parks, you see where you end up??
Everyone is entitled to their personal views but if you supply a service to the public, you have to supply to all in society equally
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Some sections of society go out of their way to be offended.
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 10:25:24 AM
Some sections of society go out of their way to be offended.
I don't know how you can generalise this one incident as reflective of the whole gay community?
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Do you think you've been discriminated against?
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:18:38 AM
Would you support their action if they had refused a cake celebrating Rosa Parks action, because in this case, their 'radically different social and religous views' meant they viewed blacks as a sub-race?
Going by what you're saying, you would, and if there was a row about it in the papers, you'd then avoid doing anything for anti-racism groups (if asked), or support any anti racist activism.
Fair enough.
That's not an argument, just a bundle of assumptions and fallacies, out of which you have constructed a strawman's argument, agreeable to yourself.
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
If you apply a similar logic to Rosa Parks, you see where you end up??
Everyone is entitled to their personal views but if you supply a service to the public, you have to supply to all in society equally
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
If they don't cook beef dishes for anybody so no discrimination I'd say. If they're actually Bengali, then they're more likely to be Muslims than Hindus at any rate :D
Considering the writing on the cake was fairly inoffensive, personally I think that this is a case of discrimination. If it was something outlandish which most people would be offended by then I think they'd be within their rights but it looks to me as if they're offended by what the message stands for. It'll probably come down to legal semantics anyway.
If I lived around there, I'd certainly boycott them
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Do you think you've been discriminated against?
Not in the slightest!
Quote from: Main Street on July 09, 2014, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:18:38 AM
Would you support their action if they had refused a cake celebrating Rosa Parks action, because in this case, their 'radically different social and religous views' meant they viewed blacks as a sub-race?
Going by what you're saying, you would, and if there was a row about it in the papers, you'd then avoid doing anything for anti-racism groups (if asked), or support any anti racist activism.
Fair enough.
That's not an argument, just a bundle of assumptions and fallacies, out of which you have constructed a strawman's argument, agreeable to yourself.
Its solidly based on exactly what you said, just racism (being much more accepted as being wrong), has been subsituted for homophobia. Feel free to point out the 'fallacies' you refer to.
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Do you think you've been discriminated against?
Not in the slightest!
Well then, you shouldn't contact the Equality commission.
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 08, 2014, 05:32:53 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 08, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Personally while I have nothing against gay marriage I do think that this is perhaps taking things a little too far.
As has been said before you could apply similar logic to a variety of places...
Could you for example go into a flag shop (as it's a PC hot potato) on sandy rowe or the shankill and either buy a tricolour or order one? I very much doubt it.
If you apply a similar logic to Rosa Parks, you see where you end up??
Everyone is entitled to their personal views but if you supply a service to the public, you have to supply to all in society equally
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
KFC don't do beef burgers, are they discriminating?
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 11:01:34 AM
Quote from: Main Street on July 09, 2014, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:18:38 AM
Would you support their action if they had refused a cake celebrating Rosa Parks action, because in this case, their 'radically different social and religous views' meant they viewed blacks as a sub-race?
Going by what you're saying, you would, and if there was a row about it in the papers, you'd then avoid doing anything for anti-racism groups (if asked), or support any anti racist activism.
Fair enough.
That's not an argument, just a bundle of assumptions and fallacies, out of which you have constructed a strawman's argument, agreeable to yourself.
Its solidly based on exactly what you said, just racism (being much more accepted as being wrong), has been subsituted for homophobia. Feel free to point out the 'fallacies' you refer to.
Strawman's argument is precisely that, made of straw. Your reply defines strawman's argument to a tee. Look it up.
It's a pisspoor tactic.
If a man who owns a clothing printing service on the Falls Road was to refuse to print 'ulster says no' tshirts for a loyalist, would he fall foul of these discrimation laws?
What if he refused the same loyalist tshirts with an anti-papal message?
What if he refused a 'kill all taigs' tshirt message?
Vendors have to have some rights. Equality shouldn't be confused with egalitarianism.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 11:02:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Do you think you've been discriminated against?
Not in the slightest!
Well then, you shouldn't contact the Equality commission.
So discrimination, and its repercussions, should be down to whether or not someone perceives themselves to have been discriminated against?!
Bit of a rocky foundation to build a legal framework on.
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 11:54:53 AM
So discrimination, and its repercussions, should be down to whether or not someone perceives themselves to have been discriminated against?!
Bit of a rocky foundation to build a legal framework on.
Ah, the endless potential to act the maggot. "The Linfield club shop won't put 'Éire 32' on the back of my shirt. Discrimination!"
Quote from: deiseach on July 09, 2014, 12:14:34 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 11:54:53 AM
So discrimination, and its repercussions, should be down to whether or not someone perceives themselves to have been discriminated against?!
Bit of a rocky foundation to build a legal framework on.
Ah, the endless potential to act the maggot. "The Linfield club shop won't put 'Éire 32' on the back of my shirt. Discrimination!"
Just tell them that 'Éire 32' was the new striker signed that hadn't been announced yet!
Quote from: Main Street on July 09, 2014, 11:51:10 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 11:01:34 AM
Quote from: Main Street on July 09, 2014, 10:44:16 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:18:38 AM
Would you support their action if they had refused a cake celebrating Rosa Parks action, because in this case, their 'radically different social and religous views' meant they viewed blacks as a sub-race?
Going by what you're saying, you would, and if there was a row about it in the papers, you'd then avoid doing anything for anti-racism groups (if asked), or support any anti racist activism.
Fair enough.
That's not an argument, just a bundle of assumptions and fallacies, out of which you have constructed a strawman's argument, agreeable to yourself.
Its solidly based on exactly what you said, just racism (being much more accepted as being wrong), has been subsituted for homophobia. Feel free to point out the 'fallacies' you refer to.
Strawman's argument is precisely that, made of straw. Your reply defines strawman's argument to a tee. Look it up.
It's a pisspoor tactic.
You're a f**king idiot - you come out with some random shite of an post and then when its questioned you cant back it up, nor even stand by it. Not a great tactic either
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 11:02:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Do you think you've been discriminated against?
Not in the slightest!
Well then, you shouldn't contact the Equality commission.
So discrimination, and its repercussions, should be down to whether or not someone perceives themselves to have been discriminated against?!
Bit of a rocky foundation to build a legal framework on.
Thats exactly what the offence is based on. Your mate in work who you enjoy the craic with, calls you a fenian b then odd time, you call him an orange b, its all good craic. Someone you only vaguely know in work calls you it one day - its an issue.
Thats not to say everyone who thinks they've been discriminated against, is. Of course they aren't, and the reason theres a commission, is to consider all those complaints, and decide which may have some validity. Same as reporting someone for assault or whatever, someone else will decide if theres a case to answer and to give the defendant a chance to answer the case, or recompense, or potentially go to court. Or adversely, if you're talking shite, over reacting, whatever.
I believe that Gregory Campbell raised this issue in the british prime ministers question time in parliament today.
It was a loaded question suggesting the right of the shop keeper not to serve certain people.
The PM hadnt a clue what Camel was on about, and said so, but added that britsh culture does not discriminate against race, religion nor disability.
Imagine if the shop had chosen not to serve someone in a wheelchair.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 11:54:05 AM
If a man who owns a clothing printing service on the Falls Road was to refuse to print 'ulster says no' tshirts for a loyalist, would he fall foul of these discrimation laws?
What if he refused the same loyalist tshirts with an anti-papal message?
What if he refused a 'kill all taigs' tshirt message?
Vendors have to have some rights. Equality shouldn't be confused with egalitarianism.
The first one, perhaps.
The other two, no, I'd say they would be refused on decency and incitement grounds.
Quote from: Orior on July 09, 2014, 01:15:54 PM
I believe that Gregory Campbell raised this issue in the british prime ministers question time in parliament today.
It was a loaded question suggesting the right of the shop keeper not to serve certain people.
The PM hadnt a clue what Camel was on about, and said so, but added that britsh culture does not discriminate against race, religion nor disability.
Imagine if the shop had chosen not to serve someone in a wheelchair.
The point is that they didn't refuse to serve a gay person. They refused a particular request from someone who happens to pack fudge in the evenings. Not the same thing.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 01:10:00 PM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 11:54:53 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 11:02:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 10:44:01 AM
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 10:23:06 AM
They supply a service to the public, as a private enterprise. Not a public service. While I disagree with the stance of the bakery, I believe they should not be obliged to fulfill an order they do not feel comfortable with. By all means they should receive a heap of bad press for being so old fashioned and should perhaps be boycotted, but legal action? Too far.
I went to the Bengal Brasserie on Sunday and discovered they wouldn't cook me any beef dishes. I presume this is at odds with their (presumably) Hindu beliefs. Should I contact the Equality Commission? Have I been discriminated against?
Do you think you've been discriminated against?
Not in the slightest!
Well then, you shouldn't contact the Equality commission.
So discrimination, and its repercussions, should be down to whether or not someone perceives themselves to have been discriminated against?!
Bit of a rocky foundation to build a legal framework on.
Thats exactly what the offence is based on. Your mate in work who you enjoy the craic with, calls you a fenian b then odd time, you call him an orange b, its all good craic. Someone you only vaguely know in work calls you it one day - its an issue.
Thats not to say everyone who thinks they've been discriminated against, is. Of course they aren't, and the reason theres a commission, is to consider all those complaints, and decide which may have some validity. Same as reporting someone for assault or whatever, someone else will decide if theres a case to answer and to give the defendant a chance to answer the case, or recompense, or potentially go to court. Or adversely, if you're talking shite, over reacting, whatever.
So if I ask them to make me a cake, they say no, explain why and I accept it and go buy my cake somewhere else, thinking nothing more of it, no offence has been committed? But if they repeat the exact same course of action with someone who does think something of it, then makes a complaint, they have committed some discriminatory offence?
Bizarre.
Quote from: Orior on July 09, 2014, 01:15:54 PM
I believe that Gregory Campbell raised this issue in the british prime ministers question time in parliament today.
It was a loaded question suggesting the right of the shop keeper not to serve certain people.
The PM hadnt a clue what Camel was on about, and said so, but added that britsh culture does not discriminate against race, religion nor disability.
Imagine if the shop had chosen not to serve someone in a wheelchair.
But they didn't refuse to serve this customer, they refused to provide him with a cake that would contain a message they feel offended by or don't believe in. The customer was free to place another order or buy a different cake. There's a difference between refusing to serve a customer and refusing a customers request. A business owner has the right to refuse entry or trade with anyone provided the grounds for their refusal are applied to everyone. I.e a bar owner can refuse you entry for being too drunk this is not discrimination provided this policy is applied to everyone.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 11:54:05 AM
If a man who owns a clothing printing service on the Falls Road was to refuse to print 'ulster says no' tshirts for a loyalist, would he fall foul of these discrimation laws?
What if he refused the same loyalist tshirts with an anti-papal message?
What if he refused a 'kill all taigs' tshirt message?
Vendors have to have some rights. Equality shouldn't be confused with egalitarianism.
The first one, perhaps.
The other two, no, I'd say they would be refused on decency and incitement grounds.
And here you've highlighted the absolute gist of the problem with anyone making this a discrimination case. Who decides when the moral compass has gone too far south? Unless we're going to call on judges and lawyers every time a sale is requested for a personalised item, then we realistically have to allow traders the ability to make up their own minds.
Quote from: gallsman on July 09, 2014, 01:30:57 PM
So if I ask them to make me a cake, they say no, explain why and I accept it and go buy my cake somewhere else, thinking nothing more of it, no offence has been committed? But if they repeat the exact same course of action with someone who does think something of it, then makes a complaint, they have committed some discriminatory offence?
Bizarre.
Pretty much.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 11:54:05 AM
If a man who owns a clothing printing service on the Falls Road was to refuse to print 'ulster says no' tshirts for a loyalist, would he fall foul of these discrimation laws?
What if he refused the same loyalist tshirts with an anti-papal message?
What if he refused a 'kill all taigs' tshirt message?
Vendors have to have some rights. Equality shouldn't be confused with egalitarianism.
The first one, perhaps.
The other two, no, I'd say they would be refused on decency and incitement grounds.
And here you've highlighted the absolute gist of the problem with anyone making this a discrimination case. Who decides when the moral compass has gone too far south? Unless we're going to call on judges and lawyers every time a sale is requested for a personalised item, then we realistically have to allow traders the ability to make up their own minds.
The Equality commission.
Remember too, its Ashers who brought the publicity. They received a letter telling them it was considered they have been discriminatory, and asking them what they were going to do about it. This is them being given the chance to do something about it. They decided to fight it, put up a youtube vid, and the media got involved. Most traders would have apologised, whatever, you'd never have heard about it.
Why should a business apologise for advocating morality? If someone wanted a 'kill all taigs' cake and they didn't want the business should they apologise to them also? Would they have to apologise to Zulu if they mentioned that the Bible suggested not killing people?
I dont understand any of that.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 01:37:52 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 01:24:25 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 11:54:05 AM
If a man who owns a clothing printing service on the Falls Road was to refuse to print 'ulster says no' tshirts for a loyalist, would he fall foul of these discrimation laws?
What if he refused the same loyalist tshirts with an anti-papal message?
What if he refused a 'kill all taigs' tshirt message?
Vendors have to have some rights. Equality shouldn't be confused with egalitarianism.
The first one, perhaps.
The other two, no, I'd say they would be refused on decency and incitement grounds.
And here you've highlighted the absolute gist of the problem with anyone making this a discrimination case. Who decides when the moral compass has gone too far south? Unless we're going to call on judges and lawyers every time a sale is requested for a personalised item, then we realistically have to allow traders the ability to make up their own minds.
The Equality commission.
Remember too, its Ashers who brought the publicity. They received a letter telling them it was considered they have been discriminatory, and asking them what they were going to do about it. This is them being given the chance to do something about it. They decided to fight it, put up a youtube vid, and the media got involved. Most traders would have apologised, whatever, you'd never have heard about it.
He was looking cash - they done right to do what they did, hopefully he gets feck all.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2014, 01:46:25 PM
Why should a business apologise for advocating morality? If someone wanted a 'kill all taigs' cake and they didn't want the business should they apologise to them also? Would they have to apologise to Zulu if they mentioned that the Bible suggested not killing people?
Equating Gay rights with the right to kill all Catholics?? I get you now.
The state can't force a private enterprise to make a product they don't want to make. That's facism.
Lets be clear on the distinction between discriminating against people and discriminating against a work of your own creation. A distinction a few on here are at pains to illustrate.
I don't know if this baker discriminated against this customer according to the law but anyone using a strict and debatable interpretation of the bible as grounds for refusing to make an inoffensive cake is a nut job who should be criticised. This guy is a protestant and I doubt he'd be escaping widespread criticism here if he was refusing to make first communion cakes based on a Cromwell era view of Catholicism.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on July 09, 2014, 02:51:46 PM
The state can't force a private enterprise to make a product they don't want to make. That's facism.
Lets be clear on the distinction between discriminating against people and discriminating against a work of your own creation. A distinction a few on here are at pains to illustrate.
That's it in a nutshell.
Quote from: Zulu on July 09, 2014, 02:50:59 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 09, 2014, 01:46:25 PM
Why should a business apologise for advocating morality? If someone wanted a 'kill all taigs' cake and they didn't want the business should they apologise to them also? Would they have to apologise to Zulu if they mentioned that the Bible suggested not killing people?
Equating Gay rights with the right to kill all Catholics?? I get you now.
You're just twisting here Zulu. He's not equating gay rights with anything. He's asking at what point it becomes acceptable for a business to decline a request (not a person) without fear of a discrimination case being launched against him.
Quote from: Orior on July 09, 2014, 01:15:54 PM
I believe that Gregory Campbell raised this issue in the british prime ministers question time in parliament today.
It was a loaded question suggesting the right of the shop keeper not to serve certain people.
The PM hadnt a clue what Camel was on about, and said so, but added that britsh culture does not discriminate against race, religion nor disability.
Imagine if the shop had chosen not to serve someone in a wheelchair.
I'd be all over that www.mywayaccess.com (http://www.mywayaccess.com) ;)
Quote from: Zulu on July 09, 2014, 02:59:12 PM
I don't know if this baker discriminated against this customer according to the law but anyone using a strict and debatable interpretation of the bible as grounds for refusing to make an inoffensive cake is a nut job who should be criticised. This guy is a protestant and I doubt he'd be escaping widespread criticism here if he was refusing to make first communion cakes based on a Cromwell era view of Catholicism.
See I'd suggest that if a Catholic visited a staunchly Protestant bakers - which has no history of making Communion cakes and no desire to learn, and is actually a little wary of his day-to-day patrons learning that he creates Communion cakes - and then demanded that a Communion cake was baked, that the problem here is with the Catholic, and not the Protestant. I don't agree with the Protestant's methods, but it's the Catholic who is seeking to be discriminated against,
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 03:20:28 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 09, 2014, 02:59:12 PM
I don't know if this baker discriminated against this customer according to the law but anyone using a strict and debatable interpretation of the bible as grounds for refusing to make an inoffensive cake is a nut job who should be criticised. This guy is a protestant and I doubt he'd be escaping widespread criticism here if he was refusing to make first communion cakes based on a Cromwell era view of Catholicism.
See I'd suggest that if a Catholic visited a staunchly Protestant bakers - which has no history of making Communion cakes and no desire to learn, and is actually a little wary of his day-to-day patrons learning that he creates Communion cakes - and then demanded that a Communion cake was baked, that the problem here is with the Catholic, and not the Protestant. I don't agree with the Protestant's methods, but it's the Catholic who is seeking to be discriminated against,
Or in this case the gay!
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 09, 2014, 03:20:28 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 09, 2014, 02:59:12 PM
I don't know if this baker discriminated against this customer according to the law but anyone using a strict and debatable interpretation of the bible as grounds for refusing to make an inoffensive cake is a nut job who should be criticised. This guy is a protestant and I doubt he'd be escaping widespread criticism here if he was refusing to make first communion cakes based on a Cromwell era view of Catholicism.
See I'd suggest that if a Catholic visited a staunchly Protestant bakers - which has no history of making Communion cakes and no desire to learn, and is actually a little wary of his day-to-day patrons learning that he creates Communion cakes - and then demanded that a Communion cake was baked, that the problem here is with the Catholic, and not the Protestant. I don't agree with the Protestant's methods, but it's the Catholic who is seeking to be discriminated against,
What?!
What's the extra ingredient in a gay cake, that the baker would need to learn to use?
Ok, but if a barber had no history of cutting the hair of black people would it be ok to refuse a black person? Would it be ok to say sorry, I don't like blacks and many of my customers (probably) don't like blacks so I can't cut your hair? Is it the black persons fault?
I don't think it is ok to refuse a gay person's custom because you don't agree with gay marriage or whatever and I think it's disgraceful to justify it on the basis on what's in the bible. That's not being Christian, that's being a Christian zealot.
If society accepts this then a lot of backward thinking nonsense can be justified. The baker may be ok on legal grounds but he certainly has no moral justification in my mind.
Quote from: Zulu on July 09, 2014, 03:34:50 PM
Ok, but if a barber had no history of cutting the hair of black people would it be ok to refuse a black person? Would it be ok to say sorry, I don't like blacks and many of my customers (probably) don't like blacks so I can't cut your hair? Is it the black persons fault?
I don't think it is ok to refuse a gay person's custom because you don't agree with gay marriage or whatever and I think it's disgraceful to justify it on the basis on what's in the bible. That's not being Christian, that's being a Christian zealot.
If society accepts this then a lot of backward thinking nonsense can be justified. The baker may be ok on legal grounds but he certainly has no moral justification in my mind.
Your barber scenario would be discrimination. But the baker scenario we have at the moment is more akin to a barber who refuses to cut shamrocks into a person's hair because it's a Fenian symbol. As long as they apply that rule to all their customers there shouldn't be a problem, daft though it is. Unless you think they should be forced to cut shamrocks into people's hair?
Head frying.
How can some posters not make the legal distinction between discriminating against people and discriminating against a work of your own creation.
You can't force a baker to bake a bloody cake if he doesn't want to bake a cake a certain way!
Of course pointing this legal reality out is morally justifying homophobia ::)
Quote from: deiseach on July 09, 2014, 04:00:07 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 09, 2014, 03:34:50 PM
Ok, but if a barber had no history of cutting the hair of black people would it be ok to refuse a black person? Would it be ok to say sorry, I don't like blacks and many of my customers (probably) don't like blacks so I can't cut your hair? Is it the black persons fault?
I don't think it is ok to refuse a gay person's custom because you don't agree with gay marriage or whatever and I think it's disgraceful to justify it on the basis on what's in the bible. That's not being Christian, that's being a Christian zealot.
If society accepts this then a lot of backward thinking nonsense can be justified. The baker may be ok on legal grounds but he certainly has no moral justification in my mind.
Your barber scenario would be discrimination. But the baker scenario we have at the moment is more akin to a barber who refuses to cut shamrocks into a person's hair because it's a Fenian symbol. As long as they apply that rule to all their customers there shouldn't be a problem, daft though it is. Unless you think they should be forced to cut shamrocks into people's hair?
No I don't but the point I've made wasn't related to the legality of it, I don't know if he is breaking the law, my point was this clown isn't justified in doing what he has doing on religious grounds and referring to the bible is daft in the extreme.
For me, a society that doesn't roundly condemn people for this type of action, based on a warped notion of Christianity, is a society going backwards.
However, I do agree this guy should have the right to refuse to make certain types of cakes, i.e. like the example used earlier to 'kill all taigs" but that would be on the grounds of not promoting hate and violence. Using the bible to justify his decision is a nonsense. I guess you can argue it's his right and maybe it is but I would like to think the vast vast majority of people would react to this with a 'wise up ya clown' rather than defending him on religious grounds.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
What the fcuk does that mean?
Quote from: thebigfella on July 09, 2014, 05:39:32 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
What the fcuk does that mean?
You know...Badminton, prawn cocktail crisps, white boots, surgical tape round the wrists etc.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 09, 2014, 03:32:25 PM
What?!
What's the extra ingredient in a gay cake, that the baker would need to learn to use?
Mince ?
the new travelling community of this era. Can't say anything and the mobile phones are out and on the the solicitors..... boys rubbing their hands together all over the country....
Quote from: The Iceman on July 09, 2014, 06:27:46 PM
the new travelling community of this era. Can't say anything and the mobile phones are out and on the the solicitors..... boys rubbing their hands together all over the country....
In a nutshell - but make sure you or those you are with have to feel uncomfortable or have to compromise for this section of the community because if you don't you are homophobic. It's pathetic really.
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 07:33:08 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 09, 2014, 06:27:46 PM
the new travelling community of this era. Can't say anything and the mobile phones are out and on the the solicitors..... boys rubbing their hands together all over the country....
In a nutshell - but make sure you or those you are with have to feel uncomfortable or have to compromise for this section of the community because if you don't you are homophobic. It's pathetic really.
The poor aul bigots are being run out of the place altogether :o
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 09, 2014, 10:12:32 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 07:33:08 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 09, 2014, 06:27:46 PM
the new travelling community of this era. Can't say anything and the mobile phones are out and on the the solicitors..... boys rubbing their hands together all over the country....
In a nutshell - but make sure you or those you are with have to feel uncomfortable or have to compromise for this section of the community because if you don't you are homophobic. It's pathetic really.
The poor aul bigots are being run out of the place altogether :o
That statement is also pathetic.
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
"Gay Pride was not born of a need to celebrate being gay, but our right to exist without persecution. So instead of wondering why there isn't a Straight Pride movement, be thankful you don't need one"
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
Ah come on that's harsh. I think that would be a fairly honest answer from most fathers. If my son or daughter grew up to be gay I doubt I would love him any differently or less, as I am intelligent enough to know that sexuality is not a choice it is something you are born with. However given the choice I would prefer them to be straight. Does that make me homophobic?? Don't think so.
Great quote above J70.
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
I must be pathetic too.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Quote from: HiMucker on July 10, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
]Ah come on that's harsh. I think that would be a fairly honest answer from most fathers. If my son or daughter grew up to be gay I doubt I would love him any differently or less, as I am intelligent enough to know that sexuality is not a choice it is something you are born with. However given the choice I would prefer them to be straight. Does that make me homophobic?? Don't think so.
I would imagine a large part of the reason you'd prefer them to be straight is because you know how much homophobia they will encounter.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 10, 2014, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 10, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
]Ah come on that's harsh. I think that would be a fairly honest answer from most fathers. If my son or daughter grew up to be gay I doubt I would love him any differently or less, as I am intelligent enough to know that sexuality is not a choice it is something you are born with. However given the choice I would prefer them to be straight. Does that make me homophobic?? Don't think so.
I would imagine a large part of the reason you'd prefer them to be straight is because you know how much homophobia they will encounter.
I would agree with that.
I honestly wouldn't care if they were Gay.
Quote from: HiMucker on July 10, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
Ah come on that's harsh. I think that would be a fairly honest answer from most fathers. If my son or daughter grew up to be gay I doubt I would love him any differently or less, as I am intelligent enough to know that sexuality is not a choice it is something you are born with. However given the choice I would prefer them to be straight. Does that make me homophobic?? Don't think so.
Great quote above J70.
No it's not harsh. I never said it was homophobic either.
I'd prefer any kids I have to be happy. I'd hope they can be open and frank about their sexuality without fear of disappointing me.
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Ah yes, you don't understand as you don't have kids line. It's irrelevant.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Ah yes, you don't understand as you don't have kids line. It's irrelevant.
So you don't then?
Do you?
While I would have an issue with the response of the owners of the bakery I really do wonder what was the motivation of the people who ordered it. If I was ordering a birthday cake I would ring saw the Corn Dolly and the Shelbourne Bakery in Newry and McNamees and Savages at home to price the different options. I would look at who I know does the best cake and how much it will cost. I will compare the 4 different prices and see which is best value. Did these people genuinely do something like this? They they ring this shop and 3-4 others or did they ring this one in the knowledge that there was a chance they might get refused and then get the media on speed dial?
One side made their decision on the strength of their long standing religious belief (albeit a skewed way of looking at it) the other side possibly made their decision to catch this side out and make political hay out of someone else. They could have asked a different bakery and had no negative response and then picked up their cake as normal. The whole issue of same sex marriages and same sex rights is moving in the right direction as far as I can see and like everything in this very 'christian' based, middle of the road country, this will take time to achieve but it will be achieved so maybe the long view should be taken.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 10, 2014, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: HiMucker on July 10, 2014, 10:02:24 AM
]Ah come on that's harsh. I think that would be a fairly honest answer from most fathers. If my son or daughter grew up to be gay I doubt I would love him any differently or less, as I am intelligent enough to know that sexuality is not a choice it is something you are born with. However given the choice I would prefer them to be straight. Does that make me homophobic?? Don't think so.
I would imagine a large part of the reason you'd prefer them to be straight is because you know how much homophobia they will encounter.
Don't think so, maybe a bit. I honestly haven't given it a pile of thought. I would like to think it would be water off a ducks back. My uncle was Gay so its not like it would be taboo in the family. Put it this way I would be more disappointed if my son didn't play football! I suppose that would be the crux of why I thought bigfellas reaction was harsh, you just want your kids to follow in your foot steps and make similar life choices, (not all!!), keep your lineage going and all that. Hi but whatever makes them happy.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Ah yes, you don't understand as you don't have kids line. It's irrelevant.
Based on what EC said how is it irrelevant - you also didn't answer his question.
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
It would depend on your reason(s) EC.
If your son (or daughter) being gay disappointed you because you disapprove of homosexuality, just as he would disappoint you if he ended up on drugs or messing up his career or college, then I would say its you who is the one with the problem and needs to get over himself.
If its disappointment born out of fear for what your child might face in terms of bigotry and discrimination, then yes that is something I'd imagine many of us might share, although personally, with very young kids who are growing up in a liberal part of the US, I don't forsee that being much of an issue.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 10, 2014, 10:38:52 AM
While I would have an issue with the response of the owners of the bakery I really do wonder what was the motivation of the people who ordered it. If I was ordering a birthday cake I would ring saw the Corn Dolly and the Shelbourne Bakery in Newry and McNamees and Savages at home to price the different options. I would look at who I know does the best cake and how much it will cost. I will compare the 4 different prices and see which is best value. Did these people genuinely do something like this? They they ring this shop and 3-4 others or did they ring this one in the knowledge that there was a chance they might get refused and then get the media on speed dial?
One side made their decision on the strength of their long standing religious belief (albeit a skewed way of looking at it) the other side possibly made their decision to catch this side out and make political hay out of someone else. They could have asked a different bakery and had no negative response and then picked up their cake as normal. The whole issue of same sex marriages and same sex rights is moving in the right direction as far as I can see and like everything in this very 'christian' based, middle of the road country, this will take time to achieve but it will be achieved so maybe the long view should be taken.
They maybe don't have as much time of their hands as a miserable hoor like you ;D
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2014, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
It would depend on your reason(s) EC.
If your son (or daughter) being gay disappointed you because you disapprove of homosexuality, just as he would disappoint you if he ended up on drugs or messing up his career or college, then I would say its you who is the one with the problem and needs to get over himself.
If its disappointment born out of fear for what your child might face in terms of bigotry and discrimination, then yes that is something I'd imagine many of us might share, although personally, with very young kids who are growing up in a liberal part of the US, I don't forsee that being much of an issue.
My children are growing up in a small village in Tyrone. Being gay would have a major negative effect on their lives here and would most likely lead to them moving away. I also would like too see my family linage continue in a natural way. I don't see my views being wrong in any way.
In fairness growing up in Tyrone is most likely going to lead them to move away. ;D
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 01:40:03 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2014, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
It would depend on your reason(s) EC.
If your son (or daughter) being gay disappointed you because you disapprove of homosexuality, just as he would disappoint you if he ended up on drugs or messing up his career or college, then I would say its you who is the one with the problem and needs to get over himself.
If its disappointment born out of fear for what your child might face in terms of bigotry and discrimination, then yes that is something I'd imagine many of us might share, although personally, with very young kids who are growing up in a liberal part of the US, I don't forsee that being much of an issue.
My children are growing up in a small village in Tyrone. Being gay would have a major negative effect on their lives here and would most likely lead to them moving away. I also would like too see my family linage continue in a natural way. I don't see my views being wrong in any way.
Family lineage/name is a very real concern for me (and my wider family - useless cousins! :P) also, but my son living his life as his happy, well adjusted, true self trumps that by far. There's not much stopping a gay man having a child who is biologically his own these days anyway, if that is what he wants.
What if your son wanted to be a priest?
As for him being forced to leave Tyrone, well your disappointment should be redirected at your community.
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2014, 01:57:05 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 01:40:03 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2014, 01:31:18 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
It would depend on your reason(s) EC.
If your son (or daughter) being gay disappointed you because you disapprove of homosexuality, just as he would disappoint you if he ended up on drugs or messing up his career or college, then I would say its you who is the one with the problem and needs to get over himself.
If its disappointment born out of fear for what your child might face in terms of bigotry and discrimination, then yes that is something I'd imagine many of us might share, although personally, with very young kids who are growing up in a liberal part of the US, I don't forsee that being much of an issue.
My children are growing up in a small village in Tyrone. Being gay would have a major negative effect on their lives here and would most likely lead to them moving away. I also would like too see my family linage continue in a natural way. I don't see my views being wrong in any way.
Family lineage/name is a very real concern for me (and my wider family - useless cousins! :P) also, but my son living his life as his happy, well adjusted, true self trumps that by far. There's not much stopping a gay man having a child who is biologically his own these days anyway, if that is what he wants.
What if your son wanted to be a priest?
I'd ask him if he was gay ;D
Nothing wrong with wanting your kids to be straight.
There is still (unfortunately) added baggage with being homosexual in Ireland. I'd say given the choice most parents would choose to have heterosexual offspring.
There's also the whole 'coming out' process which I can't imagine being too stress-free for any individual; especially in their teenage years. It's something I'd prefer my children not to have to go through, given a choice.
Quote from: general_lee on July 10, 2014, 02:00:43 PM
Nothing wrong with wanting your kids to be straight.
There is still (unfortunately) added baggage with being homosexual in Ireland. I'd say given the choice most parents would choose to have heterosexual offspring.
There's also the whole 'coming out' process which I can't imagine being too stress-free for any individual; especially in their teenage years. It's something I'd prefer my children not to have to go through, given a choice.
True, but one would hope that a child could at least feel comfortable and secure enough to come out to their family in a fairly stress-free manner. You can't control wider society, but you CAN bring your child up in an environment where homosexuality is not seen as evil and shameful and a potential cause for a rift with your family.
Quote from: Zip Code on July 10, 2014, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Ah yes, you don't understand as you don't have kids line. It's irrelevant.
Based on what EC said how is it irrelevant - you also didn't answer his question.
It's irrelevant as it's hypothetical situation. Having kids doesn't qualify your opinion any more.
Gay is fine. I'd be pissed off if they turned out to be Marty.
Quote from: J70 on July 10, 2014, 02:05:39 PM
Quote from: general_lee on July 10, 2014, 02:00:43 PM
Nothing wrong with wanting your kids to be straight.
There is still (unfortunately) added baggage with being homosexual in Ireland. I'd say given the choice most parents would choose to have heterosexual offspring.
There's also the whole 'coming out' process which I can't imagine being too stress-free for any individual; especially in their teenage years. It's something I'd prefer my children not to have to go through, given a choice.
True, but one would hope that a child could at least feel comfortable and secure enough to come out to their family in a fairly stress-free manner. You can't control wider society, but you CAN bring your child up in an environment where homosexuality is not seen as evil and shameful and a potential cause for a rift with your family.
Exactly. I think society in Ireland, especially the north, is nowhere near tolerant enough.
Sectarianism, racism and homophobia ravages the north. Having an accepting and loving family is only half the battle. Just think of the amount of shite that your offspring would/could experience growing up here, it doesn't bear thinking about.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 02:09:28 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 10, 2014, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Ah yes, you don't understand as you don't have kids line. It's irrelevant.
Based on what EC said how is it irrelevant - you also didn't answer his question.
It's irrelevant as it's hypothetical situation. Having kids doesn't qualify your opinion any more.
Wrong. Having kids will change your perception on many things. Some day you might understand.
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 02:09:28 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 10, 2014, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 10:10:50 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 10:04:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
Quote from: thebigfella on July 10, 2014, 09:52:41 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 09, 2014, 11:00:27 PM
Quote from: Zip Code on July 09, 2014, 05:08:21 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 09, 2014, 03:29:37 PM
You all seem to be using bigotry to excuse homophobia.
The homophobic card is the most over played card in society - it verges on pathetic. If you don't agree with all things gay you are a homophobic, maybe they will have a huge march about it, just to let us all know they are gay. ::)
I once stated on here that I would be disappointed if my son grew up to be gay. Apparently that made me homophobic.
No it makes you a pathetic individual.
I would say a very large % of fathers are 'pathetic individuals' then.
Maybe in your very narrow view of the world. Reality is much different, especially in Ireland.
So wrong. Maybe a few may not admit it but inside they would be disappointed. I have no doubt.
People don't all conform to your narrow views of the world
Do you have any children?
Ah yes, you don't understand as you don't have kids line. It's irrelevant.
Based on what EC said how is it irrelevant - you also didn't answer his question.
It's irrelevant as it's hypothetical situation. Having kids doesn't qualify your opinion any more.
Yes it does he's talking about his children. I take it you have no children, trust me your views of most things change when you do.
Quote from: EC Unique on July 10, 2014, 02:17:48 PM
Wrong. Having kids will change your perception on many things. Some day you might understand.
(http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/four-legs-good-small.jpg)
Theres so many bad things said about being gay. I know a boy who came out to his parents and his father said that's why you play football like a girl.
The same friend told his grandfather the next day and the grandfather went berserk and said 'how the hell can this happen' but it turned out he hadn't his hearing aid on and he thought I said I was dead.
His opinion is devalued when he references fatherhood with no experience of it, so you climb down of your high horse also and stop insulting the man for having an opinion.
Why can you not follow it?