Quote
The identity of the United Kingdom is threatened by an "opportunist group of nationalists", Gordon Brown has warned.
The chancellor told the Fabian Society that some groups were "playing fast and loose" with the union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
He said the UK was a country "built on shared values" which served as a "model for the rest of the world".
SNP leader Alex Salmond said Mr Brown was thinking only of his "self-interest as a prime minister designate".
Mr Brown, a Scot who is MP for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, is expected to take over as prime minister later this year.
Talking to former Labour MP Oona King at the start of the Labour think-tank's conference, Mr Brown stressed the importance of the country's shared values.
"It is very important to recognise that Britishness and Britain itself is not based on ethnicity and race," he said.
"It is founded on shared values that we hold in common: a commitment to liberty for all, a commitment to social responsibility shown by all, and a commitment to fairness to all."
He said there was now a dividing line in Britain which pitted "those of us who are prepared to support the shared values of the union" against "those who are prepared to play fast and loose with the union and put the whole future of the union at risk".
English issues
This year is the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union that merged the English and Scottish parliaments.
The pro-independence Scottish National Party is tipped to do well in the Scottish Parliament elections in May, with the independence debate likely to crop up often in the campaign.
SNP leader Mr Salmond said the chancellor "could not tolerate the idea of Scotland slipping out of Labour's control just at the point he wants to move into No 10".
"Revealingly, Mr Brown is unable to accept that, under his chancellorship, the Scottish economy has lagged behind both the UK and spectacularly, the small independent countries in Europe."
The Conservatives have suggested for some time now that it might be better if exclusively English laws were voted on by English MPs alone.
But Mr Brown said the idea of "English votes for English laws" would pull the union apart.
'Faustian bargain'
During a wide-ranging address to the Fabians, Mr Brown pledged support for the idea of raising the school-leaving age to 18.
And he told delegates that terrorism and security issues could not be solved through military means alone.
Earlier, he had written an article in the Daily Telegraph where he criticised the Conservatives for siding with the nationalists over constitutional issues.
In it he warned: "It is now time for supporters of the union to speak up, to resist any drift towards a Balkanisation of Britain and to acknowledge Great Britain for the success it has been and is."
He attacked today's Conservatives for embracing "anti-unionist positions" in collusion with nationalists - contrasting them with Lady Thatcher's determined support for the union.
Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell said the chancellor was right to highlight the "Faustian bargain" between the nationalists and the Tories.
"They may have different motives but their actions will jointly lead to the same conclusion - the break-up of the union," he said.
But shadow Scotland secretary David Mundell said the chancellor should be judged by his actions, not his words.
"He is undermining Britishness with his support for English regionalisation, identity cards and the European constitution."
Sourced BBCi: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6258089.stm
UK's existence is at risk - always good to hear some good news in these dark January days!
Shared values - equality???
Only if your English!!! >:(
We in Northern Ireland are an integral part of the union and we will stay that way regardless if you like it or not. the fact remains that all the scaremongering and posturing from Sinn Fein means absolutely nothing and the Empire will not change one iota in the long term, especially so close to home.So dream on boys and girls. You will never live to see a United ireland, it simply wont happen, my thought is over the coming decades we will see the status quo remain intact and I delighted about it.
I don't usually get in on these threads but ......
Quotethe Empire
Classic ;D ;D
"It is founded on shared values that we hold in common: a commitment to liberty for all, a commitment to social responsibility shown by all, and a commitment to fairness to all."
thought there was a bit more to it than that......
"we in northern ireland are an internal part of the union blah blah"
bignifan, in a few months when martin mcguinness is back in charge of education your 4 year olds might be reading from a different script.... dream on yourself
bignifan, in a few months when martin mcguinness is back in charge of education your 4 year olds might be reading from a different script....
Aye as gaeilge!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;)
According to British government papers released recently from 1956, the then French PM had recommended France merge with Britain, with Lily Von Windsor as Head of State.
Whether we like it or not, we could now have been now part of a Royaume-Uni!
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on January 15, 2007, 08:40:49 AM
According to British government papers released recently from 1956, the then French PM had recommended France merge with Britain, with Lily Von Windsor as Head of State.
Whether we like it or not, we could now have been now part of a Royaume-Uni!
Or even more telling are the 30 year old British government paper that have released in recent years. The have been itching to dump Northern Ireland off their hands for years.
Disappointing that Gordy is presenting himself of late as a super Brit / PM in waiting.
Especially when Blair will probably still shaft him in the end and Johnny Reid will be crowned British Taoiseach.
Quote 'Empire'
It's not fecking star wars
Its always been England first.
Uniteg kingdom of England and the other bit players
Great Britain of England and those other statelets - that the English either despise or are completely apathetic about
Everying is England centric. When English people are talking about UK or GB - they actually mean England.
Or so it was when I lived there as a kid.
People barely acknowledged Scotland, wales or NI.
I dont think there will be much of a break up - as only scotland actually has a majority to leave the union.
NI are approx 50% to stay/leave - though most Brits (English) would jettison them in a heartbeat
and wales - is like englands pet.
The point is that the Union is not delivering benefits to Scotland. NI is kept in by the prejudice of union supporters towards the natives, which has hardly been helped by the events of the last 40 years, and a big subvention. If things are peaceful and people are working together the type of issues that lead to discontent in Scotland will also become more important in NI.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on January 14, 2007, 11:47:40 PM
bignifan, in a few months when martin mcguinness is back in charge of education your 4 year olds might be reading from a different script....
Aye as gaeilge!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;)
reminds me of that joke about linfield beating glentoran 2-11 to 1-8 in the cup final
Quote from: bignifanatic on January 14, 2007, 10:26:10 PM
We in Northern Ireland are an integral part of the union and we will stay that way regardless if you like it or not. the fact remains that all the scaremongering and posturing from Sinn Fein means absolutely nothing and the Empire will not change one iota in the long term, especially so close to home.So dream on boys and girls. You will never live to see a United ireland, it simply wont happen, my thought is over the coming decades we will see the status quo remain intact and I delighted about it.
This article has nothing to do with Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein had absoluately no influence in Gordon Brown's thinking. Why did you try and turn this into an anti Sinn Fein thread. Bloodly blinkers, reading what you want to see.
Best post of the thread, Lamh Dhearg, although I don't necessarily agree in that I WOULDN'T like to see an SNP majority. I'd like a Tory majority in the UK but, as you point out, this is likely to cause a great deal of friction and, therefore, would be damaging to the Union. Ironic, when you consider that rightist parties in Britain would be proud of the colonial past and of the success of the Union and left-leaning parties would be more inclined towards devolution on power.
Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for. :(
Quote from: Lamh Dhearg Alba on January 15, 2007, 10:59:42 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on January 15, 2007, 01:36:18 PM
Its always been England first.
Uniteg kingdom of England and the other bit players
Great Britain of England and those other statelets - that the English either despise or are completely apathetic about
Everying is England centric. When English people are talking about UK or GB - they actually mean England.
Or so it was when I lived there as a kid.
People barely acknowledged Scotland, wales or NI.
I dont think there will be much of a break up - as only scotland actually has a majority to leave the union.
NI are approx 50% to stay/leave - though most Brits (English) would jettison them in a heartbeat
and wales - is like englands pet.
Agree about a lot of English people just assuming that UK means England, interesting quote today from the MP for Berwick which is on the border "Across England, where history isn't always taught that much, I don't think that people realise these are two nations who agreed to work together. I think the phrase 'The United Kingdom' is actually lost on a lot of people. They don't realise that Scotland is a different nation with a different background and different traditions,".
In recent times though I think thats changing, even look at England sports fans now sporting St Georges Crosses at matches, a few years back it was all Union Flags. On top of that a more right wing anti-Scottish nationalism has appeared in England, people resent the fact there is a Scottish Parliament yet Scottish politicians still have a major say in the UK Parliament. A recent poll in the Daily Telegraph actually showed majorities supporting the break up of the Union in England and Scotland.
I dont see Scotland breaking away anytime soon but the Scottish Parliament will without doubt continue to seek further powers and if it doesnt become completely independent it will eventually be totally controllling Scotland and just leaving the likes of foreign policy and defence to Westminster, independence within a loose Union if you like.
With the SNP looking in a decent position to win the Scottish Parliament elections in May its certainly an interesting time, I would love to see an SNP administration at Holyrood and then the Tories winning the next UK election, there would without doubt be friction between the two parliaments. David Camerons recent comments are also interesting, he knows the Tories have bugger all support in Scotland and that Labour relies hugely on its Scottish MP's....if Scotland was to leave the Union it would help the Tories in England enourmously. Would probably also help the Scottish Tories who currently suffer from being seen as an English party, without that baggage they would win more votes.
completely agree my Jocko buddy
also well spotted regarding the st. Georges flags (flegs) becomming more common at games where and English sports team are playing.
Although they are most common at 'England' cricket matches - though I think Englands players could come from Wales and scotland too
which makes it a GB or UK team.
I also go nuts when people over here in Ireland refer to 'the UK' when they most obv mean England.
I actually lose the rag for some reason and have to keep my annoyance to myself.
Tonto - thats prob very true, many a true word spoken in jest and all that.
Scots nationalism seems to have come on in leaps and bounds ever since Braveheart and Trainspotting ! (??)
Question- just how much is it going to cost the English to break away from the scots?
Is the scottish econmy big enough to support itself?
Quote from: An Fear Rua on January 17, 2007, 11:09:57 AM
Question- just how much is it going to cost the English to break away from the scots?
Is the scottish econmy big enough to support itself?
The North Sea Oil and Water (18 million profit per month), the Scottish can more than support itself. The question is, can England survive without Scotland?
Quote from: ziggysego on January 17, 2007, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on January 17, 2007, 11:09:57 AM
Question- just how much is it going to cost the English to break away from the scots?
Is the scottish econmy big enough to support itself?
The North Sea Oil and Water (18 million profit per month), the Scottish can more than support itself. The question is, can England survive without Scotland?
Who owns those companies, Id have thought they were private ventures thanks to Maggie? Whats unemployment like in Scotland? The Scots have a lot more benefits over the english, including no tuition fees at uni, more free perscriptions and indeed no perscription drugs eg Aricept(theres been many lefgal cases in england wrt people being refused drugs due to cost issues), scotland provides free nursing care for the elderly etc. It will take more than unsustanable Oil and gas to support an economy even with a few drastic changes.
"The North Sea Oil and Water (18 million profit per month), the Scottish can more than support itself. The question is, can England survive without Scotland?"
ziggy, AIB makes about 5 times that per month. should that be billion?
Quote from: magickingdom on January 17, 2007, 02:53:14 PM
ziggy, AIB makes about 5 times that per month. should that be billion?
Probably. Number's were never my strongest point.
I was just think there, that perhaps the break-up of the Union has been speeded up by the accelerating Union of Europe.
To a lot of people, I'm just guessing, the United Kingdom may now be just a unified state within a unified state and that just seems pointless.
Maybe if we left the EU, a sense of British identity, of being different would return and we could get back to normal. :)
Quote from: Tonto on January 17, 2007, 04:16:51 PM
I was just think there, that perhaps the break-up of the Union has been speeded up by the accelerating Union of Europe.
To a lot of people, I'm just guessing, the United Kingdom may now be just a unified state within a unified state and that just seems pointless.
Maybe if we left the EU, a sense of British identity, of being different would return and we could get back to normal. :)
absolutely
bring back the empire, internment and the be specials while yer at it !
those were the days!
:D
Quote from: Tonto on January 17, 2007, 04:16:51 PM
Maybe if we left the EU, a sense of British identity, of being different would return and we could get back to normal. :)
Now even you know that would be pointless, Tonto.
And it's not top of the agenda for any major political party in Britain despite their odd xenophobic mutterings.
Go figure, as the Yanks say.
Just a pity the Irish, Welsh and Scottish didn't gang up on the English. Then we could've called England Irewelscoland and Rooney etc would have been bursting a gut to get a trial for Newry Town.
There's still time but the icebergs are melting any way and ourselves as well as the scots are done for. I suppose it'd be best to head for the hills, somewhere like DOnegal but it wouldn't be much of a life sitting up there all day at Griannan an Aileach. There'd be no Tescos Home Shopping or Dominos Pizza. Homemade bingo would keep you occupied for a while but you'd get pissed off. That'd lead you onto cannibalism i'd say that no one wants that right now.
I see Salmond makes more tentative moves in Scotland to break away from the London-centric way of governing thon island:
Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond has announced a commission to look into Scottish broadcasting.
He called for the Scottish Parliament to be given powers over the area, currently reserved to Westminster.
The British government had warned that creating a "Scottish Broadcasting Corporation" was a backward-looking proposal.
Mr Salmond said the long-running debate over a separate BBC six o'clock news programme for Scotland was only "shorthand" for a much wider debate which had to be conducted.
Can you imagine Paisley and Wee Marty wanting to see up a 'state' broadcaster here - they'd probably fall down on what even to call the station......
i'd say at this stage and unless mel Gibson steps in Scotland will remain in the uk. the English press are only toying with the referendum so far and the scots are shiten themselves already
This time next year Scotland will be the laughing stock of the world when they decide that no they don't want to run their own country. :-[
If the 'Pro' side gain more than 25% I will be astonished the way the debate is slowly unfurling.
Quote from: Feckitt on November 20, 2013, 01:14:02 PM
This time next year Scotland will be the laughing stock of the world when they decide that no they don't want to run their own country. :-[
that's what I was thinking.. they'll never live it down.. arseholes
Quote from: forkinknife on January 18, 2007, 10:03:25 AM
Just a pity the Irish, Welsh and Scottish didn't gang up on the English. Then we could've called England Irewelscoland and Rooney etc would have been bursting a gut to get a trial for Newry Town.
There's still time but the icebergs are melting any way and ourselves as well as the scots are done for. I suppose it'd be best to head for the hills, somewhere like DOnegal but it wouldn't be much of a life sitting up there all day at Griannan an Aileach. There'd be no Tescos Home Shopping or Dominos Pizza. Homemade bingo would keep you occupied for a while but you'd get pissed off. That'd lead you onto cannibalism i'd say that no one wants that right now.
Rooney would still be living in Galway and recognised as the heir to Padraig Joyces boots.
by the time the English press are finish with the scots they'll be gripping their union jack comfort blanket so hard..
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on November 20, 2013, 01:20:04 PM
If the 'Pro' side gain more than 25% I will be astonished the way the debate is slowly unfurling.
A vote to continue outsourcing Government?
Any Canadians in the house? What became of Quebecois separatism? Did it peak at the 1995 referendum? That was a close run thing.
Quote from: Feckitt on November 20, 2013, 01:14:02 PM
This time next year Scotland will be the laughing stock of the world when they decide that no they don't want to run their own country. :-[
Why would they be a laughing stock? Is it not a valid position to favour being part of a union (for those that want to vote that way)? Would any of the US states be a laughing stock if the voted against independence from the rest of the USA?
Quote from: Maguire01 on November 20, 2013, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: Feckitt on November 20, 2013, 01:14:02 PM
This time next year Scotland will be the laughing stock of the world when they decide that no they don't want to run their own country. :-[
Why would they be a laughing stock? Is it not a valid position to favour being part of a union (for those that want to vote that way)? Would any of the US states be a laughing stock if the voted against independence from the rest of the USA?
I know... ::) I just cant get my head around why people in Scotland wouldn't want to be ruled by a conservative aristocrat/toff hundreds of miles away whose power base is under a line east to west and south of Birmingham. I wonder if that has anything to do with why everything under that line is booming and above it there is widespread dereliction.. and the likes of Poland why ::) did they not want to remain ruled by Moscow and cech and slovac why didnt they remain the one country? your right Maguire why bother with all that self rule when you can just let someone else tell you what to do and decide how you should live your life?
spoken like a true Mexican.. "sure them ff/fg guys they run the country why question what they do"?
Quote from: lawnseed on November 21, 2013, 09:13:26 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on November 20, 2013, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: Feckitt on November 20, 2013, 01:14:02 PM
This time next year Scotland will be the laughing stock of the world when they decide that no they don't want to run their own country. :-[
Why would they be a laughing stock? Is it not a valid position to favour being part of a union (for those that want to vote that way)? Would any of the US states be a laughing stock if the voted against independence from the rest of the USA?
I know... ::) I just cant get my head around why people in Scotland wouldn't want to be ruled by a conservative aristocrat/toff hundreds of miles away whose power base is under a line east to west and south of Birmingham. I wonder if that has anything to do with why everything under that line is booming and above it there is widespread dereliction.. and the likes of Poland why ::) did they not want to remain ruled by Moscow and cech and slovac why didnt they remain the one country? your right Maguire why bother with all that self rule when you can just let someone else tell you what to do and decide how you should live your life?
spoken like a true Mexican.. "sure them ff/fg guys they run the country why question what they do"?
I don't understand why the Tories want to hang onto Scotland. They have no MPs there and Labour have most of them. Without Scotland Labour would find it much harder to get a majority in Westminster .
North Sea oil. Handy testing ground for the military, experimenting with new laws etc.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 21, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
North Sea oil. Handy testing ground for the military, experimenting with new laws etc.
there isn't much of it left.
What's the feeling in Scotland on the referendum as to how it will go?
Lámh Dhearg/London Camanachd - any info??
H
Quote from: seafoid on November 21, 2013, 09:27:15 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 21, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
North Sea oil. Handy testing ground for the military, experimenting with new laws etc.
there isn't much of it left.
Gas fish beef whiskey.. Military bases.. Arseholes who'll fight their wars for them.. Not to mention the vast areas of top class farmland owned by english aristocrats on the east coast they dont like the idea of an independant scotland.
Dont get me wrong I detest scots.. But whats going to happen over the next year will be a dry run for this place when the time comes
Even the SNP know they won't win the vote. Thats not what it's about a bit like the Shinners here it is about establishing the thought in people's heads and working towards it. I the meantime they will also push for greater independance within the Union. I'd say if they get around 30% they'd be doing well and happy.
A few Rangers fans eloquent view on potential independence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A&sns=em
"f**k Bobby Sands, he's deed"
Quote from: Minder on November 22, 2013, 05:34:32 PM
A few Rangers fans eloquent view on potential independence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A&sns=em
"f**k Bobby Sands, he's deed"
What an enlightened group of fine upstanding British Citizens, you can see why Unionists want to remain tied to them.
Quote from: Minder on November 22, 2013, 05:34:32 PM
A few Rangers fans eloquent view on potential independence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A&sns=em
"f**k Bobby Sands, he's deed"
Like I said cannon fodder these clowns wont fight but they'll send their kids