Troubles victims' payment planned
By Vincent Kearney
Home affairs correspondent
The government will be asked to compensate families
The government is to be asked to pay £12,000 to the families of all those killed during the Troubles - including members of paramilitary groups.
The families of paramilitary victims, members of the security forces and civilians who were killed will all be entitled to the same amount.
The payment is expected to be recommended by the group set up to advise on how to deal with the past.
The Consultative Group on the Past is to publish its report next week.
"As yet, I have not seen a copy of the group's recommendations but media reports on the issue are both disappointing and disturbing," said Northern Ireland's first minister and DUP leader Peter Robinson.
"The DUP has consistently opposed any equation between the perpetrator of crimes during the Troubles and the innocent victim.
"Terrorists died carrying out their evil and wicked deeds while innocent men, women and children were wiped out by merciless gangsters."
The SDLP's Alex Attwood said: "What has been reported today may be true or may be malicious but until we know, people should reserve judgement."
If the recommendation is accepted by the government, the cost would be an estimated £40m.
The group, co-chaired by Lord Eames and Denis Bradley, is expected to say there should be no hierarchy of victims and that everyone should be treated in the same way.
That would mean the family of the IRA Shankill bomber Thomas Begley would receive the same for his death as those of the families of the nine civilians he killed.
Likewise, the families of two UVF members killed while they planted a bomb that also killed three members of the Miami Showband in 1975 will be entitled to the same payment as those of the victims.
The Consultative Group on the Past is also expected to recommend the creation of a five year legacy commission, appointed by the British and Irish governments, to deal with the past - and to say there should be no further public inquiries.
The total cost of the proposals would be £300m, and the Irish government will be asked to make a significant contribution.
More than 3,000 people died during the Northern Ireland Troubles and the group was set up to find ways forward in dealing with that legacy.
They have been spending their time productively if this is the kind of shite they are coming up with. Not totally surprising though in todays society.
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 05:32:06 PM
They have been spending their time productively if this is the kind of shite they are coming up with. Not totally surprising though in todays society.
Some people have lose innocent family members in the troubles. Even though it will never bring their loved ones back they probably are deserving of this money..
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the terrorists that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
Where is the money coming from? Victimhood is a runaway train now. There is talk of yet another forum being setup for reconciliation which seems to be doing the same job as the victims commission. People's misery is a right old earner in "post conflict" Norn Iron.
In response to your question Minder - should they f**k!
It's a feckin recipe for disaster - who get's the money? The wife, the kids, the parents, the partner .. etc etc .. how do you begin to trace the next-of-kin for people killed in the early 1970s .. it is a farce .. add into that - say .. Begley the Shankill Road bomber or the butcher Lennie Murphy .. there will be an awful lot of people pished of at this .. ps the NIO money was considered to be derisoy .. but Jesus this will cause some row... I was nearly shot - bullet hit a wall 20 yards away .. can I claim...?
Anything but the truth!!
Quote from: Take Your Points on January 23, 2009, 07:44:46 PM
Just an enquiry, not making a judgement.............
Didn't the relatives of every victim already receive compensation from NIO?
Yes!
TYP, as an Armagh man I am ashamed to see that Jarlath participated in that farce.
Times Online
The group's report will also recommend the establishment of a Legacy Commission, chaired by an international figure, with two deputies, which would run for five years at a cost of £160 million.
This commission would continue investigations into murders from the Troubles with a view to securing prosecutions, replacing the historic cases work carried out by the Police Ombudsman and the police Historic Inquiries Team (HET).
Where relatives were willing to waive the chance of prosecution an 'Information Recovery Process' would use contacts in the security forces and paramilitary groups to retrieve information on killings.
The commission would also oversee what it calls 'Thematic Studies' to examine issues including allegations of collusion between the security forces and terrorist groups.
A 'Reconciliation Forum' would be given the role of healing divisions, while sectarianism would be tackled and social problems such as addiction, made worse by the Troubles, could be targeted.
A £100 million 'bursary' would fund projects aimed at dealing with these 'legacy' issues.
WTF?
Can't see the point of this at all but if it is to happen it should be for everybody or nobody.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on January 23, 2009, 11:43:52 PM
Can't see the point of this at all but if it is to happen it should be for everybody or nobody.
Why?
Who is more deserving, the family of some innocent fella waiting for the work van in the morning or the family of the fella that lifts and tortures the innocent man waiting for the work van who subsequently gets wasted in an internal gangster feud over drugs?
It's sickening but it sums up Northern Ireland where there is a queue round the block for a place at the trough of eu and government cash.
according to the BBC this morning the unionists have all voted against it anyway
Regardless of whether the proposals are acted on you have to ask what is the point of this group, at a cost of millions to the tax payer. There are enough "conflict resolution" handouts in Northern Ireland at present.
While everyone was a product of the conflict here not sure that some like Lennie Murhy were not psycopaths hiding behind it. Anyway it is not them is getting the money, is their relatives who suffered the grief. Having said that is typical of mindset this society and £££s as the answer to everything. Should be a wall like the one for USA soiders with EVERY name on it and no hierarchy of victims but some twist would probably deface it. Put the money into health service or charity or something.
This is ridiculous. There most definitely should be a hierarchy of victims. Some people had a choice in what happened to them, others didn't. Money should not be given to the family of someone who was killed whilst trying to kill others.
Also, it's hardly fair to give £12k across the board to all families anyway as some will quite clearly not need the money. Those who died at the start of the troubles may have no close family still alive - for example, is it right that grandchildren should benefit from losing a grandparent who died before they were even born?
Furthermore - and this is not getting into the hierarchy of victims issue, rather the need for monetary compensation - the families of any police or army personnel who died would surely have received a massive cut from their employers when they died (pension/insurance etc)? Surely £12k would pale into insignificance against this money.
I'd also love to know where the random figure of £12k came from(?) It seems a very strange price to put on a person's life.
£12k is an insult to genuine victims, and the overall cost of £40m is an insult to the rest of us. Better to move on and build 10 integrated schools with it.
Whilst there are families / ex wives / children etc out there who could do with the £12k, personally I think it's not very well thought out, there are so many holes you can pick in it, so many what ifs and what abouts, but as someone said, not altogether a surprise in the society we've lived in for so many years.
Final point -
If Adams, Mc Guiness, Murphy, Doherty and all the SF politicians who are drawing salaries from the British Government, why not give the families of fallen heroes the £12k payment ?? It's small change really compared to the money SF and their buddies have made from cigarettes, petrol, diesel and all sorts of criminal activity - and don't forget that for about 4 or 5 years after the ceasefire, a blind eye was turned by the Brits to all the criminality by a lot of ex Provos - so they were allowed to earn their money from "legitimate" criminality. So £12k is a pittance.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 23, 2009, 08:07:34 PM
Anything but the truth!!
If im picking you up right, thats the best response on this thread. Ive heard reports that if a family accepts this payment then they have to more or less drop their whole case there may be for an enquiry. Well f**k that!!!!! Do they really think that they can buy the silence of thos who lost loved ones during the conflict through their policies of collusion with £12,000. Let them keep their money, let the truth come out, because it will in the end, and then and only then can the families of these victims draw a line under what has happened.
Okay McGuire...So maybe they should phone you to decide who is top of the hierarchy list ::) Nobody had a choice in being brought up in this society and were products of that whether from Shankill or Falls though agreed put all the money into something else can help all of society.
Quote from: longrunsthefox on January 24, 2009, 12:45:48 PM
Okay McGuire...So maybe they should phone you to decide who is top of the hierarchy list ::) Nobody had a choice in being brought up in this society and were products of that whether from Shankill or Falls though agreed put all the money into something else can help all of society.
Why would they phone me (i'm assuming it's me you were replying to)? I don't have the answer for the hierarchy - i doubt there's any scientific/accurate way of determining a definitive hierarchy.
Yes, people are products of their society - but not everyone who grew up on the Falls or Shankill lifted a gun or planted a bomb. Some people had choices, others didn't. I just don't think you can say that someone who was killed planting a bomb was a victim, in the same way as an innocent civilian who died as a result of that bomb; the civilian was going about their normal business and the bomber was going out of their way to kill. Can you not see the difference?
Why not just give £12k to everyone who lived through the troubles killed relatives or not? I missed school days and nights out over the head of it and had to live with helicopters whizzing about!
Elaine Moore on the consultative group is a bit of a looker!
Quote
Yes, people are products of their society - but not everyone who grew up on the Falls or Shankill lifted a gun or planted a bomb. Some people had choices, others didn't. I just don't think you can say that someone who was killed planting a bomb was a victim, in the same way as an innocent civilian who died as a result of that bomb; the civilian was going about their normal business and the bomber was going out of their way to kill. Can you not see the difference?
What about the policeman or the solider? They made choices too. I assume they'd be on your list with the bomber?
Quote from: Superstar on January 24, 2009, 12:45:10 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 23, 2009, 08:07:34 PM
Anything but the truth!!
If im picking you up right, thats the best response on this thread. Ive heard reports that if a family accepts this payment then they have to more or less drop their whole case there may be for an enquiry. Well f**k that!!!!! Do they really think that they can buy the silence of thos who lost loved ones during the conflict through their policies of collusion with £12,000. Let them keep their money, let the truth come out, because it will in the end, and then and only then can the families of these victims draw a line under what has happened.
Exactly, forget the money, tell the truth about what happened. I thnk the truth is the only answer to people being able to even think about moving on.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 01:12:12 PM
Quote
Yes, people are products of their society - but not everyone who grew up on the Falls or Shankill lifted a gun or planted a bomb. Some people had choices, others didn't. I just don't think you can say that someone who was killed planting a bomb was a victim, in the same way as an innocent civilian who died as a result of that bomb; the civilian was going about their normal business and the bomber was going out of their way to kill. Can you not see the difference?
What about the policeman or the solider? They made choices too. I assume they'd be on your list with the bomber?
As i've already said, i think their families will already have been accommodated financially because of their jobs. I don't think they need £12k. They made a choice and their jobs put them in the line of fire. They're obviously different to the innocent civilians.
So is this where we're at after so many years talking shite in Stormont ??
Give everybody who was killed £12k for their silence on the issue and given that £12k in a credit crunch situation is worth a whole lot more than it would have been a few years ago, then it's worth doing ??
What do you get for being injured physically or mentally ?
How much do those who ended up in wheelchairs, psychiatric hospitals, end of a rope, addiction clinics get ?
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
No i dont..read my post..SOME "innocent" people lost their lives..Including my uncle and these people deserve the money...
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
No i dont..read my post..SOME "innocent" people lost their lives..Including my uncle and these people deserve the money...
You could never have it that who you view as innocent gets the money.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
No i dont..read my post..SOME "innocent" people lost their lives..Including my uncle and these people deserve the money...
You could never have it that who you view as innocent gets the money.
Well any one who is not a member of any organisation then..Including RUC UDR ETC there was too much collusion involved in the troubles plus they have been paid handsomely already compared to the "innocent victim"
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
No i dont..read my post..SOME "innocent" people lost their lives..Including my uncle and these people deserve the money...
You could never have it that who you view as innocent gets the money.
Well any one who is not a member of any organisation then..Including RUC UDR ETC there was too much collusion involved in the troubles plus they have been paid handsomely already compared to the "innocent victim"
Then what about people who were injured? There's never going to be a clear cut answer.
I dont think throwing money at the problem is going to help and I acctually think it would insult a lot of people who are searching for years for the truth on their loved one's death, in fact it makes me angry that they think money will make it all go away, it won't.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
No i dont..read my post..SOME "innocent" people lost their lives..Including my uncle and these people deserve the money...
You could never have it that who you view as innocent gets the money.
Well any one who is not a member of any organisation then..Including RUC UDR ETC there was too much collusion involved in the troubles plus they have been paid handsomely already compared to the "innocent victim"
Then what about people who were injured? There's never going to be a clear cut answer.
I dont think throwing money at the problem is going to help and I acctually think it would insult a lot of people who are searching for years for the truth on their loved one's death, in fact it makes me angry that they think money will make it all go away, it won't.
It may help families who are struggling financially but if as some one said it comes at the price of justice i do agree with you ...keep the money but what i'm saying is some families could do with it and do deserve it..
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:28:03 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 02:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 02:05:59 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 23, 2009, 07:28:27 PM
Do you think the gangsters that were killed on both sides are deserving of a payout too Pat ?
No i dont..read my post..SOME "innocent" people lost their lives..Including my uncle and these people deserve the money...
You could never have it that who you view as innocent gets the money.
Well any one who is not a member of any organisation then..Including RUC UDR ETC there was too much collusion involved in the troubles plus they have been paid handsomely already compared to the "innocent victim"
Then what about people who were injured? There's never going to be a clear cut answer.
I dont think throwing money at the problem is going to help and I acctually think it would insult a lot of people who are searching for years for the truth on their loved one's death, in fact it makes me angry that they think money will make it all go away, it won't.
It may help families who are struggling financially but if as some one said it comes at the price of justice i do agree with you ...keep the money but what i'm saying is some families could do with it and do deserve it..
It should be up to the individuals in question to decide if they want to accept the money. Many cases are cut and dried and the truth is already established so I'm sure many families could do with the leg up. However I'd rather the money was put into education or health.
There are families out there where the main "bread" winner has been killed unjustly and have had to struggle through...and some people who have really bad depressive illness from their fathers being murdered and never really had the chance to get themselves a proper education...Give it to education if you want it may help their children then but i think it should be given to the people who deserve it to try and make their lives a bit easier..
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 03:45:44 PM
There are families out there where the main "bread" winner has been killed unjustly and have had to struggle through...and some people who have really bad depressive illness from their fathers being murdered and never really had the chance to get themselves a proper education...Give it to education if you want it may help their children then but i think it should be given to the people who deserve it to try and make their lives a bit easier..
Pat, the problem in northern ireland is that everyone is encouraged to believe they are a victim as there is a trough of money out there to take advantage of. If, and only if, this payment goes ahead then I or very few other people would begrudge families of innocent victims getting the cash. The problem is that as everyone has bought into victimhood and therefore families of terrorists feel they are victims of "society" or "circumstance". As it said on the front of a paper the money is for families of butcher, bomber, victim.
As I've already said I dont agree with everyone getting it but I personally know a young lad whos father was shot....and he was involved in nothing...Now this young lad has been diagnosed with paranoid dillusions and cant get himself a proper education over this....Does he deserve a helping hand out?
Can you prove that the two are linked? Maybe this guy would have had mental health issues even if his father had never been killed.
This whole thing also begs the question, what about those who have been badly injured? Would they not deserve money as much, if not more than the families of those who have died?
Anyway, the general consensus seems to be that the whole thing is a joke.
Well he was 2 when his father was shot so who knows!! Never knew his dad at all...Maybe his mum got some money then but as far as i'm concerned he deserves to get some....If only to pay for his treatment or make a better life for himself..
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 06:33:01 PM
Well he was 2 when his father was shot so who knows!! Never knew his dad at all...Maybe his mum got some money then but as far as I'm concerned he deserves to get some....If only to pay for his treatment or make a better life for himself..
Well he deserves to get treatment on the NHS, but it does not entitle him to this £12k!
If this was a case deserving of £12k, what about a family where the father or mother was killed in a car accident?
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 24, 2009, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: The Watcher Pat on January 24, 2009, 06:33:01 PM
Well he was 2 when his father was shot so who knows!! Never knew his dad at all...Maybe his mum got some money then but as far as I'm concerned he deserves to get some....If only to pay for his treatment or make a better life for himself..
Well he deserves to get treatment on the NHS, but it does not entitle him to this £12k!
If this was a case deserving of £12k, what about a family where the father or mother was killed in a car accident?
You can go on and give examples all day...as far as i'm concerned(and i will not change my mind on this) he is one who deserves this money.....
Disgraceful. I always had Jarlath Burns down as a decent man with a good head on his shoulders. How he can put his name to this garbage is beyond me.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2009, 11:17:41 PM
Disgraceful. I always had Jarlath Burns down as a decent man with a good head on his shoulders. How he can put his name to this garbage is beyond me.
Well take it from me he is a decent man, a gent, just because you dont agree with this doesnt mean he's not.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2009, 11:17:41 PM
Disgraceful. I always had Jarlath Burns down as a decent man with a good head on his shoulders. How he can put his name to this garbage is beyond me.
Well take it from me he is a decent man, a gent, just because you dont agree with this doesnt mean he's not.
I agree pints but I'm suprised.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2009, 11:35:37 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 24, 2009, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2009, 11:17:41 PM
Disgraceful. I always had Jarlath Burns down as a decent man with a good head on his shoulders. How he can put his name to this garbage is beyond me.
Well take it from me he is a decent man, a gent, just because you dont agree with this doesnt mean he's not.
I agree pints but I'm suprised.
Im surprised you are "suprised" Tony
i'm very confused as to why killers should get money for killing people (rightly or wrongly depending on your views)