China Coronavirus

[Eire90]

i had sore throat but my nose never really ran.

[Rudi]

Tweet from Cillian de Gascun

Whilst vaccination reduces the risk of Delta infection, fully vaccinated individuals have viral loads similar to unvaccinated & can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts (Singanayagamet al, madRxiv.

Never mind the bollocks here's the science ehh Luke O Neill He's a bluffer with a good few euro in his pocket.

[armaghniac]

Has Luke O"Neill said something different?

[Hound]

Tweet from Cillian de Gascun

Whilst vaccination reduces the risk of Delta infection, fully vaccinated individuals have viral loads similar to unvaccinated & can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts (Singanayagamet al, madRxiv.

Never mind the bollocks here's the science ehh Luke O Neill He's a bluffer with a good few euro in his pocket.

That's been known for a while. But you get people (frankly idiots) who misinterpret this as meaning vaccines don't work or don't matter, and they ignore the fact that you're far far less likely to catch Covid if you have been vaccinated. And those idiots spread the message to other idiots, resulting in the self fulfilling prophecy that too many don't get the vaccine, so the vaccine does not eliminate the virus.

The above was 1 of 18 tweets De Gascun had yesterday on the subject as he was explaining how herd immunity or what he prefers to call "Community Level Protection" works with vaccines.

The reproductive number is important and De Gascun compared vaccine effectiveness (VE) and vaccine uptake of other viruses:

Smallpox: VE 95%, uptake > 80% worldwide = eradicated
Endemic Rubella: VE 99%, uptake > 92% Ireland = eliminated
Endemic Measles: VE 95%, uptake > 92% Ireland = eliminated
Endemic Mumps: VE: 65-75%, uptake > 92% Ireland = not eliminated

For Covid, VE ranges from 53% to 91% (overall 75% is reasonable estimate). 88% uptake in those over 12 in Ireland, means 75-80% across the whole population, so overall vaccines on their own cannot control Covid at current uptake levels. Therefore, additional public health measures, including increasing vaccine uptake is required to control Covid.

But De Gascun also emphasised that the vaccines are very effective at protecting against hospitalisation and severe disease.

[Rudi]

Tweet from Cillian de Gascun

Whilst vaccination reduces the risk of Delta infection, fully vaccinated individuals have viral loads similar to unvaccinated & can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts (Singanayagamet al, madRxiv.

Never mind the bollocks here's the science ehh Luke O Neill He's a bluffer with a good few euro in his pocket.

That's been known for a while. But you get people (frankly idiots) who misinterpret this as meaning vaccines don't work or don't matter, and they ignore the fact that you're far far less likely to catch Covid if you have been vaccinated. And those idiots spread the message to other idiots, resulting in the self fulfilling prophecy that too many don't get the vaccine, so the vaccine does not eliminate the virus.

The above was 1 of 18 tweets De Gascun had yesterday on the subject as he was explaining how herd immunity or what he prefers to call "Community Level Protection" works with vaccines.

The reproductive number is important and De Gascun compared vaccine effectiveness (VE) and vaccine uptake of other viruses:

Smallpox: VE 95%, uptake > 80% worldwide = eradicated
Endemic Rubella: VE 99%, uptake > 92% Ireland = eliminated
Endemic Measles: VE 95%, uptake > 92% Ireland = eliminated
Endemic Mumps: VE: 65-75%, uptake > 92% Ireland = not eliminated

For Covid, VE ranges from 53% to 91% (overall 75% is reasonable estimate). 88% uptake in those over 12 in Ireland, means 75-80% across the whole population, so overall vaccines on their own cannot control Covid at current uptake levels. Therefore, additional public health measures, including increasing vaccine uptake is required to control Covid.

But De Gascun also emphasised that the vaccines are very effective at protecting against hospitalisation and severe disease.

Idiots including people who should know better like Luke O Neill & Pat Kenny who don't want to eat in restaurants with the unvaccinated as they are multiple times more likely to pass on Covid that the vaccinated.
I fully accept everything you wrote above as being accurate, the vaccine is doing a job in saving lives & reducing the pressure in hospitals. However the efficacy of these vaccines is poor. The immunity depreciates very significantly over time, therefore the requirement for boosters. A greater proportion of people aged 20 - 60 are  unlikely to take up the opportunity to get the booster jab, scientists have to develop a better treatment for Covid, than the current vaccines.

[Hound]

But people who are unvaccinated are more likely to catch Covid than people who are vaccinated, therefore, you are much safer eating in a restaurant that only allows vaccinated to attend.

[6th sam]

I think it's important to keep the "high expressed emotion" out of the argument.
The vaccines aren't perfect but they have been very effective in keeping people out of hospital. They don't prevent spread and arguably if vaccinated people get complacent and don't continue to practice good covid hygiene practices, they will contribute significantly to rise in cases. The vaccines protect most from serious illness , but if there are more cases then even a small percentage of a large number of cases could break the NHS. The nhs has been grossly underfunded for years snd this pandemic has exposed this dramatically.
Imho there is only one path to take. Promote worldwide vaccination , and incentivisation through vaccine passports will help. In addition we must continue to practice Covid safety sense, this needs to be easy measures That the population can sustain economically and psychologically. This approach to eradication via herd immunity thru vaccination and infections , whilst keeping numbers low so as not to break the nhs is probably our only hope of getting on top of this. Taking any other approach is high risk  and likely to lead to significantly more deaths.
Anyone proposing a different strategy , has no hope of it succeeding , as they are fighting against very very strong scientific arguments. The only possible impact of anti-vacc strategies is to delay combatting this pandemic and cause many more deaths.
In short vaccinate the world, get boosters when available, keep Covid smart , and beat this.
Part of that strategy must be worldwide social media regulation that prevents poor quality anecdotal opinion being treated on an equal footing to established and very strong medical evidence .

[Rudi]

But people who are unvaccinated are more likely to catch Covid than people who are vaccinated, therefore, you are much safer eating in a restaurant that only allows vaccinated to attend.

Fair enough I don't disagree, however that was not the primary reason for exclusion of unvaccinated people from indoor dining in this country.

[Rudi]

I think it's important to keep the "high expressed emotion" out of the argument.
The vaccines aren't perfect but they have been very effective in keeping people out of hospital. They don't prevent spread and arguably if vaccinated people get complacent and don't continue to practice good covid hygiene practices, they will contribute significantly to rise in cases. The vaccines protect most from serious illness , but if there are more cases then even a small percentage of a large number of cases could break the NHS. The nhs has been grossly underfunded for years snd this pandemic has exposed this dramatically.
Imho there is only one path to take. Promote worldwide vaccination , and incentivisation through vaccine passports will help. In addition we must continue to practice Covid safety sense, this needs to be easy measures That the population can sustain economically and psychologically. This approach to eradication via herd immunity thru vaccination and infections , whilst keeping numbers low so as not to break the nhs is probably our only hope of getting on top of this. Taking any other approach is high risk  and likely to lead to significantly more deaths.
Anyone proposing a different strategy , has no hope of it succeeding , as they are fighting against very very strong scientific arguments. The only possible impact of anti-vacc strategies is to delay combatting this pandemic and cause many more deaths.
In short vaccinate the world, get boosters when available, keep Covid smart , and beat this.
Part of that strategy must be worldwide social media regulation that prevents poor quality anecdotal opinion being treated on an equal footing to established and very strong medical evidence .

Does this apply to mis-information such as that which the poster "Thatstheball" has highlighted. It was claimed by numerous scientists including our own members of Nphet that the unvaccinated carried higher viral loads than the vaccinated in relation to the spread of Covid. Mis-information is a two way street.
Edit - This is in relation to the last sentence of your commentary.

[Hound]

But also one fool in Mater Belfast does not tarnish the actual medical experts.

Rudi, you are placing a lot of emphasis on the viral load. While it's disappointing, the main point about it is that it just means vaccinated still have to be careful with social distancing etc.
It doesn't improve the position of the unvaccinated. An unvaccinated person is still more likely to pass on Covid, because an unvaccinated person is more likely to catch Covid. You can't pass it on until you get it, and you significantly reduce your chances of getting it by being jabbed.

[Rudi]

But also one fool in Mater Belfast does not tarnish the actual medical experts.

Rudi, you are placing a lot of emphasis on the viral load. While it's disappointing, the main point about it is that it just means vaccinated still have to be careful with social distancing etc.
It doesn't improve the position of the unvaccinated. An unvaccinated person is still more likely to pass on Covid, because an unvaccinated person is more likely to catch Covid. You can't pass it on until you get it, and you significantly reduce your chances of getting it by being jabbed.

I get that Hound, I'm not anti vaccination. However I was lead to believe that the un unvaccinated carried greater viral loads than the vaccinated. This was the story from Luke O Neill & the boys in Nphet up until recently.

[armaghniac]

NPHET are not interested in individual transmission, they are interested in population transmission. The reduction in population transmission comes about because vaccinated are less likely to be infected and because they clear the infection more quickly.
There is no contradiction in saying that saying that on aggregate vaccinated people have lower viral loads and saying that an individual may be just as infectious although vaccinated and so that people with symptoms or who are contacts need to be careful.

You can't pass it on until you get it, and you significantly reduce your chances of getting it by being jabbed.

Exactly.

[red hander]

See that bastard Hutchings has contracted Covid. Good chance he got if off one of those loyalist scumbags he kept hugging on his way into court. Oh, the irony.

[trueblue1234]

so much misinformation and lies. read this about the Mater and further down in the article about another claim by at another hospital reported by the BBC

https://citizenjournos.com/2021/10/06/confirmed-the-mater-hospital-was-not-full-of-unvaccinated-20-30-year-olds-on-ventilators-on-the-22nd-july/?fbclid=IwAR00_KAGnsV3eH56NBd0onAfSk6KgqOoyYtecWjAnCBbE9B8bEjMrw3eXs0

Misinformation should absolutely be called out. But it's worthwhile stating that these were claims by individuals, not published reports. One was regarding a tweet by NHS employee. Not a published report by a health board or the DoH. The other a claim by another employee (That the BBC should have fact checked). It's very different from trying to claim the official reports or figures are incorrect.

[sid waddell]

so much misinformation and lies. read this about the Mater and further down in the article about another claim by at another hospital reported by the BBC

https://citizenjournos.com/2021/10/06/confirmed-the-mater-hospital-was-not-full-of-unvaccinated-20-30-year-olds-on-ventilators-on-the-22nd-july/?fbclid=IwAR00_KAGnsV3eH56NBd0onAfSk6KgqOoyYtecWjAnCBbE9B8bEjMrw3eXs0

That "Citizen Journos" yoke is an anti-vaccine propaganda site.

It has less credibility as a source of Covid information than your local drug dealer.