A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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johnnycool


Eamonnca1

Quote from: seafoid on March 10, 2018, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 09:40:18 AM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 09, 2018, 10:54:27 PM


Like it or lump it, Catholic's born in the North from 1980/1990 onwards have an equal if not better chance at a successful/prosperous life than their Protestant colleagues at the minute, especially West of the Bann. This all comes off the back of the IRA's campaign. Thats a fact. It wasn't through some kind of magic. Violence was the only option and it worked. University figures back this up with the split in numbers.

Post this evidence.

Post the causal link between an indiscriminate bombing in a Protestant town and rights for Catholics.
Post the evidence that there was no option.
Post these university figures
The NI economy collapsed between 1970 and the late 90s. The public sector was expanded to provide missing jobs. The economy has never fully recovered.
Catholic levels of education seem to be higher.
Sunningdale was rejected in 1974 or 5 by Paisley and Co.  You could argue that violence delivered it a generation later.

And you could argue that it was the cessation of violence that delivered it.

red hander

Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 04:27:44 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 10, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

How does it feel to bask in the freedom won for you by the IRA? They didn't win that freedom by being choirboys. And the IRA who fought in the occupied six counties of our country weren't choirboys either. Hypocrisy of blue shirts like you makes me want to puke!

larryin89

Interesting posts , how some are so naive is astounding.  Without militant republicanism this country would never of progressed to firstly the 26 and then the GFA which now has a good chance of eventually leading to the unification of Ireland, free of all brit interference.  Great times ahead , everyone will have a part to play to make the transition a successful one , outstretching the arms to our fellow Irish brothers and sisters from the PUL  community and persuading them a united Ireland will be peaceful, equal and prosperous.
Walk-in down mchale rd , sun out, summers day , game day . That's all .

Syferus

#2179
Quote from: larryin89 on March 10, 2018, 11:40:22 PM
Interesting posts , how some are so naive is astounding.  Without militant republicanism this country would never of progressed to firstly the 26 and then the GFA which now has a good chance of eventually leading to the unification of Ireland, free of all brit interference.  Great times ahead , everyone will have a part to play to make the transition a successful one , outstretching the arms to our fellow Irish brothers and sisters from the PUL  community and persuading them a united Ireland will be peaceful, equal and prosperous.

Were they doing a 2 for 1 in the Four Ways or something?

BennyCake

While I'm not agreeing with all the IRA did, was there any difference to what British policies were in the North during (and before) the troubles?

The Brits only knew one way to react to protecting their gerrymandered bigoted state, and the IRA responded in kind.

red hander

It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

tonto1888

Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 06:50:28 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 09, 2018, 03:58:43 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 03:55:56 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 09, 2018, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 03:39:41 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 09, 2018, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 09, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 02:01:21 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 09, 2018, 01:48:46 PM
Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?

So just a criminal then?

Well he certainly was a criminal.

I called him a bully, a thug and a renegade. He certainly was all those things.

If you want to drag me into a debate on the hunger strike then plough on. My views won't surprise you. An horrific way to die. An horrific way to let someone die. Little credit to be attributed to any side.

would you consider every IRA/INLA member a criminal?

The easy way out of that one is to say that membership of a proscribed organisation is a criminal activity

To engage in what I think you are getting at then yes I absolutely consider that shootings, bombings, punishment beatings, racketeering etc are criminal activities and their perpetrators, by definition, criminals.

But criminal wasn't my word.

Just to be clear, Im not looking an argument, its just interesting to see different points of view.

Forget about technicalities etc, do you consider them to be criminals? For me I generally don't, although that is not to say that there weren't atrocities carried out in the name of Irish Republicanism

Criminal. Very clear on that

fair enough. You're entitled to your view. I disagree in the main. No doubt there were criminals who used Irish Republicanism to go about their ways. I remember reading on one of the many books written about the time a quote by a lady in Tyrone talking about her sons which stuck with me. She said, yes they were in the IRA, but they weren't bad boys. If they were bad boys I wouldn't have let them back in the house. Ordinary people caught up in extraordinary times is how Ive heard it described and I tend to agree

Roll the clock forward - demographic change-> nationalist majority -> majority position abused -> then accepted into a united ireland -> young protestant sees himself as a discriminated against minority -> he joins a paramilitary group-> they plant a bomb in Newry as it's a catholic town -> 10 die including 2 toddlers and a pregnant woman -> not deterred he and his confreres shoot a catholic taxi driver and put a bomb under a gardai car.


I'm not saying any individual step in that chain is going to happen. My point is that should that scenario ever arise I will condemn the criminal and will not consider myself a quisling

I didn't call you a quisling and I'm not gonna argue hypotheticals with you

Avondhu star

Quote from: red hander on March 11, 2018, 01:16:16 AM
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.
No sense you mentioning the French Resistance. The I.R.A. used a pro Nazi Breton, who was ran out of France by the Resistance, to build their memorials.
Lee Harvey Oswald , your country needs you

Eamonnca1

Quote from: larryin89 on March 10, 2018, 11:40:22 PM
Interesting posts , how some are so naive is astounding.  Without militant republicanism this country would never of progressed to firstly the 26 and then the GFA which now has a good chance of eventually leading to the unification of Ireland, free of all brit interference.  Great times ahead , everyone will have a part to play to make the transition a successful one , outstretching the arms to our fellow Irish brothers and sisters from the PUL  community and persuading them a united Ireland will be peaceful, equal and prosperous.

The GFA would have happened over a decade earlier were it not for the Provos. Even Gerry Adams admitted himself that years were wasted. The actions of the Provos deepened divisions and strengthened the resolve of unionism to keep saying no to everything that looked like progress.

Fact is it was years of behind-the-scenes work in London and Washington by John Hume that got the process moving. The way that man and his contribution have been airbrushed out of history is a disgrace.

trileacman

Quote from: larryin89 on March 10, 2018, 11:40:22 PM
Interesting posts , how some are so naive is astounding.  Without militant republicanism this country would never of progressed to firstly the 26 and then the GFA which now has a good chance of eventually leading to the unification of Ireland, free of all brit interference.  Great times ahead , everyone will have a part to play to make the transition a successful one , outstretching the arms to our fellow Irish brothers and sisters from the PUL  community and persuading them a united Ireland will be peaceful, equal and prosperous.


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jesus that gave me a laugh. Go down to East Belfast, Bushmills, Kesh or Craigavon and go door to door peddling that horseshit.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

smelmoth

Quote from: johnnycool on March 10, 2018, 08:42:32 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 04:27:44 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 10, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

The Cairo gang.

Fairly clear that he orchestrated this.

Completely clear that he had popular support for his overall goal.
It's clear that the democratic process was being frustrated/denied.

But that doesn't mean anything goes. Did he have popular support for a campaign of violence or this act of violence? What options did he have? Did he conform to the rules of war (admittedly pre Geneva convention)?

I don't have the answers to those last bits.

smelmoth

Quote from: red hander on March 10, 2018, 10:52:00 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 10, 2018, 04:27:44 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 10, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
So it was OK for Michael Collins to commit murder?

The murder of who exactly?

How does it feel to bask in the freedom won for you by the IRA? They didn't win that freedom by being choirboys. And the IRA who fought in the occupied six counties of our country weren't choirboys either. Hypocrisy of blue shirts like you makes me want to puke!

What makes me a blue shirt?

Post your evidence that the freedoms that I enjoy were won for me by the IRA? Don't just assert it - show the cause and effect relationship. Killing people is too serious for lazy assumptions

smelmoth

Quote from: red hander on March 11, 2018, 01:16:16 AM
It just galls me when Irish people buy into this narrative perpetrated by a controlled media, and fall for this bullshit. The odious British Empire makes Hitler and Stalin look like mere amateurs when you do a simple bodycount. The French Resistance were heroes. The Irish Resistance were terrorists... Lick the back of my balls.

Show me the popular support for the IRA during the troubles?

What were the results of elections the NAZI's were running in France?

smelmoth

Quote from: tonto1888 on March 11, 2018, 03:36:35 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 06:50:28 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 09, 2018, 03:58:43 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 03:55:56 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 09, 2018, 03:52:55 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 03:39:41 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on March 09, 2018, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 09, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on March 09, 2018, 02:01:21 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 09, 2018, 01:48:46 PM
Does not surprise me that someone who would denigrate one of the hunger strikers would base their principles on economics. Quisling.

Well lots of people will use economics as part of their reasoning. You might as well start to prepare yourself for that now, because it isn't going to change. Maybe calling them names will make you feel better and so very grown up. Not sure it win any votes though

If I was to drag some young fella into a side street and give him a beating around the knees and ankles would you that behaviour to display the characteristics of say bullying or thuggery?

So just a criminal then?

Well he certainly was a criminal.

I called him a bully, a thug and a renegade. He certainly was all those things.

If you want to drag me into a debate on the hunger strike then plough on. My views won't surprise you. An horrific way to die. An horrific way to let someone die. Little credit to be attributed to any side.

would you consider every IRA/INLA member a criminal?

The easy way out of that one is to say that membership of a proscribed organisation is a criminal activity

To engage in what I think you are getting at then yes I absolutely consider that shootings, bombings, punishment beatings, racketeering etc are criminal activities and their perpetrators, by definition, criminals.

But criminal wasn't my word.

Just to be clear, Im not looking an argument, its just interesting to see different points of view.

Forget about technicalities etc, do you consider them to be criminals? For me I generally don't, although that is not to say that there weren't atrocities carried out in the name of Irish Republicanism

Criminal. Very clear on that

fair enough. You're entitled to your view. I disagree in the main. No doubt there were criminals who used Irish Republicanism to go about their ways. I remember reading on one of the many books written about the time a quote by a lady in Tyrone talking about her sons which stuck with me. She said, yes they were in the IRA, but they weren't bad boys. If they were bad boys I wouldn't have let them back in the house. Ordinary people caught up in extraordinary times is how Ive heard it described and I tend to agree

Roll the clock forward - demographic change-> nationalist majority -> majority position abused -> then accepted into a united ireland -> young protestant sees himself as a discriminated against minority -> he joins a paramilitary group-> they plant a bomb in Newry as it's a catholic town -> 10 die including 2 toddlers and a pregnant woman -> not deterred he and his confreres shoot a catholic taxi driver and put a bomb under a gardai car.


I'm not saying any individual step in that chain is going to happen. My point is that should that scenario ever arise I will condemn the criminal and will not consider myself a quisling

I didn't call you a quisling and I'm not gonna argue hypotheticals with you

Of course your not. I can't stop you availing of an easy hiding place