Simple scheduling change that might solve several of the championship's problems

Sionnach · March 30, 2009, 11:54:39 AM

What would you think of playing the qualifiers BEFORE the provincial championships?

The qualifiers would be a 32-county (since London have opted to play in qualifiers and NY and KK haven't) open draw competition. The 4 teams that came through could meet the provincial champions in the All-Ireland quarter-finals. If a team came through the qualifiers and also won their provincial championships they would go straight into the semis.

Sionnach · March 30, 2009, 11:55:33 AM

This might solve a lot of the problems people have with the back door while still giving every team two championship games and not taking any longer to play the championship off. There's the possiblity of very interesting qualifier clashes. Provincial championships' meaning would return. It would once again be genuinely do or die in the provincial championship for almost all the teams. Even the 4 who already have quarter-final places would have the incentive to win in the provinces of (1) getting a semi-final spot and (2) if they lost early in the provincial championship they could have a long wiat with no games before playing a provincal champion. It would also reduce the inequalities between provinces because all teams would have to start conditioning etc around the same time if they wanted to be near their best for the qualifiers. And no more of provincial champions not getting a fair deal with no second chance etc.

[This isn't an essential part of my suggestion but while I'm at it home quarter-finals would make sure that the provincial champs get the advantage and have an incentive. Counties that didn't have a large enough home ground could have their pick of which venue they wanted to play the quarter-final at. If this was felt to be an unfair advantage to teams that have large home grounds every provincial champion could have the choice of where to play from any ground considered large enough except one in their own county]

SLIGONIAN · March 30, 2009, 12:00:08 PM

Good ideas, welcome to the Board Pauric Duffy

.

Lazer · March 30, 2009, 12:22:54 PM

Quote from: Sionnach on March 30, 2009, 11:54:39 AM
What would you think of playing the qualifiers BEFORE the provincial championships?

The qualifiers would be a 32-county (since London have opted to play in qualifiers and NY and KK haven't) open draw competition. The 4 teams that came through could meet the provincial champions in the All-Ireland quarter-finals. If a team came through the qualifiers and also won their provincial championships they would go straight into the semis.

Good idea in theory but you've got an uneven number if only one team wins the provincial championship and came through the qualifiers.

bingobus · March 30, 2009, 12:30:45 PM

Not a bad idea in principle.

To incorpoate it though you'd have to still adress the fixture schedule. One of the issues I have is that it takes 5 weeks before the first round of Ulster is finished. Why they can't play double fixture on some weekends is beyond me.

Also, in that proposal, isn't a team that progress's in both provincal and qualifier route going to have a lot of matches to play compared to a team that focus's on one route? Mayo/Galway won't have near the games that Dublin would have.

Not a bad idea but would need careful planning and maybe replace the league in some way or other?

brokencrossbar1 · March 30, 2009, 12:53:54 PM

Scrap the national league, run the provincials as a "seeding" competition. Pick 8 groups of 4. Home and away. Top two go into 2nd round a la Champions League. Last 16. Bottom 2 go into Tommy Murphy. Guaranteed at least 8 competitive games each year, easier to structure. Can work around the clubs. You could structure a proper on and off season.

bingobus · March 30, 2009, 01:05:54 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 30, 2009, 12:53:54 PM
Scrap the national league, run the provincials as a "seeding" competition. Pick 8 groups of 4. Home and away. Top two go into 2nd round a la Champions League. Last 16. Bottom 2 go into Tommy Murphy. Guaranteed at least 8 competitive games each year, easier to structure. Can work around the clubs. You could structure a proper on and off season.

Again, a simple and workable solution.

One area where the GAA would argue is that the Provincals would lose their cash cow status and that the qualifier games would also lose there appeal, if two strong teams where in each group and the 4 places where predictable eg Kerry, Galway, Antrim, Carlow. Home advantage may be a leveller but the away game would counter the shock value if it occurred.

Sionnach · March 30, 2009, 01:07:02 PM

Quote from: Lazer on March 30, 2009, 12:22:54 PM
Quote from: Sionnach on March 30, 2009, 11:54:39 AM
What would you think of playing the qualifiers BEFORE the provincial championships?

The qualifiers would be a 32-county (since London have opted to play in qualifiers and NY and KK haven't) open draw competition. The 4 teams that came through could meet the provincial champions in the All-Ireland quarter-finals. If a team came through the qualifiers and also won their provincial championships they would go straight into the semis.

Good idea in theory but you've got an uneven number if only one team wins the provincial championship and came through the qualifiers.

No you don't. Think about it for a moment. There would be 3 other provincial champions and 3 other qualifier teams. When those 6 have played their quarter-finals you have
3 + 1 = 4 teams in the semi-finals.

Sionnach · March 30, 2009, 01:22:52 PM

Quote from: bingobus on March 30, 2009, 12:30:45 PM
Not a bad idea in principle.

To incorpoate it though you'd have to still adress the fixture schedule. One of the issues I have is that it takes 5 weeks before the first round of Ulster is finished. Why they can't play double fixture on some weekends is beyond me.

Also, in that proposal, isn't a team that progress's in both provincal and qualifier route going to have a lot of matches to play compared to a team that focus's on one route? Mayo/Galway won't have near the games that Dublin would have.

You're right, it doesn't solve the fixtures, but it's not intended to solve it or be a perfect situation. The fixture problem would be no worse and a lot of other problems would be addressed with this relatively small change which wouldn't bother the traditionalist too much. To be honest I don't think it is possible to solve the fixture problem without much more major changes which a lot of people would oppose.

The point about Mayo / Galway vs Dublin is a good one. Mayo / Galway would have a minimum of 3 games to reach a semi (Connacht semi and final plus quarter) while Dublin if they came through both sides of the draw would have a minimum of 6 (Leinster QF, SF, Final plus 3 qualifier games and no All-Ireland quarter). This is a slight disadvantage, but I don't think it's a huge disimprovement from the current situation to be honest. After all it's already quite possible for a Leinster team to play 6 games to get an Alll-Ireland quarter-final to a Connacht team's 2. Or think of Tyrone's 2005 schedule. I don't think it's enough of a disadvantage to outweigh the problems that the change in schedule could solve.

armaghniac · March 30, 2009, 04:57:50 PM

QuoteScrap the national league, run the provincials as a "seeding" competition.

The unequal nature of the provincials makes this a difficult one. With the present knockout structure just because one of Armagh/Tyrone or Meath/Dublin get beaten on the first round doesn't mean they should be in the Tommy Murphy.

illdecide · March 30, 2009, 05:14:21 PM

Dunno where i read it (might have been Micky Harte in Irish News - Not sure) but they suggested that the 4 provincial winners play each other with the winning 2 teams into the all ireland semi finals and the loosing 2 teams go back into the hat to play the back door guys. I know they would have to work it that there is only 2 back door teams left so the other 2 make up the draw properly.

It certainly would make winning your province more appealing...

Rossfan · March 30, 2009, 06:37:46 PM

What if one of the teams that went direct to the Semis lost....do you give them another go?
Or a team gets tot he Final unbeaten and loses

Sionnach · March 30, 2009, 08:16:12 PM

Sure that can and does happen all the time as things stand - that's not Mickey Harte's point. He was just suggesting something which would increase the reward for and incentive to win your provincial championship It probably would help and is an attempt at reducing some of the same problems as my proposal which opened the thread, but IMO wouldn't do it as well as my suggestion of simply changing the schedule so that qualifiers would be before the provincial championships.

Sionnach · March 30, 2009, 08:33:59 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 30, 2009, 12:53:54 PM
Scrap the national league, run the provincials as a "seeding" competition. Pick 8 groups of 4. Home and away. Top two go into 2nd round a la Champions League. Last 16. Bottom 2 go into Tommy Murphy. Guaranteed at least 8 competitive games each year, easier to structure. Can work around the clubs. You could structure a proper on and off season.

I see the advantages but here are some problems

Provincial championships further devalued with interest and attendances declining There just wouldn't be a big enough reward or incentive to win them.

As another poster pointed out, groups like Kerry, Mayo, Antrim, Carlow aren't going to attract great interest or attendances. Remember the lack of interest when the hurling qualifiers had groups of four? That kind of group stage could end up like the hurling did. I think people would feel the championship didn't really get going until the last 16, and the provincial championships and groups would attract relatively little interest from the general public.

This isn't a point about the intrinsic merits of the idea, but radically changing the format like that will likely get significant opposition. One thing about the opening suggestion of the thread of qualifiers before provinces is that it's not a major break with tradition that would make many unhappy. It's actually closer to the traditional championship than the current situation.

cornafean · March 30, 2009, 10:30:53 PM

Quote from: illdecide on March 30, 2009, 05:14:21 PM
Dunno where i read it (might have been Micky Harte in Irish News - Not sure) but they suggested that the 4 provincial winners play each other with the winning 2 teams into the all ireland semi finals and the loosing 2 teams go back into the hat to play the back door guys. I know they would have to work it that there is only 2 back door teams left so the other 2 make up the draw properly.

Sounds great in theory but it would all but kill the chances of teams like Fermanagh or Wexford ever reaching another semi-final. On the other hand, the likes of Kerry & Dublin would be almost guaranteed a semi-final place every year unless they have a catastrophic season.