Messages

[why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification]

Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 

In general:

If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that. 

If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider. 

If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions.  However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.

If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done.  This achieves just that.  It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 

[Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football. 

[Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team. 

So let's make sure that everyone who has made a decent account of themselves the previous year, gets a free pass into the latter stages of the competition this year?

Is the purpose of your ideal completion to reward mediocrity? Or is it a mad hope that if you add enough mediocre teams to a competition, then one will magically see its standards rise?

At least those teams have been playing at Division 1 level that year - surely you acknowledge there are often fine lines between relegation and staying in Division 1.  Not that long since Cork were relegated on 6 points from Division 1. Donegal, Mayo and Monaghan also finished on 6 points in the same year.  In the same year, Monaghan and Cork wouldn't have qualified for the AI Series on score difference. 

[Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2. 

[Let's devise a competition format instead whereby any team that says "we want in" immediately qualifies, regardless of form, regardless of their potential. Because you know, it's really really important to play knockout football, especially when you've no chance of winning. Then let's make sure that when any team is beaten, they get back in again. Because you know, every team has off days.]

You're right APM.

Let's devise a competition format instead whereby any team that says "we want in" immediately qualifies, regardless of form, regardless of their potential. Because you know, it's really really important to play knockout football, especially when you've no chance of winning.  Then let's make sure that when any team is beaten, they get back in again. Because you know, every team has off days.

That'll be great craic that will.

Honest to f**k. The mind boggles that the people who object to option B, are doing so to protect a provincial competition format that has, for 20 years, produced a most unsatisfactory outcome.

Wobbler,
Where did I say that I agree with the existing system, which is badly broken. 

Christ, we're being given a choice between three different colours of shite. 

Genuinely not being arrogant.  You and I might understand it, but there are plenty voting on this that will not understand it and it won't matter to them one iota - some in Ireland and some overseas. 

[Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Too much slabbering on the sidelines at underage matches. We see it year in year out and it only takes someone to "light the match" and you have scenes like this.   Clubs are to blame by letting the wrong people take charge of teams and then when they act the bollix, they brush it under the carpet in a misguided attempt to protect their own. There should be absolute zero tolerance for this bullshit. Also, what happened to the rule about playing championship matches at a pitch with a fence?

Also worth saying that whoever put that video online was wrong.  However, you have a number of GAA people being assualted by others and is it not better that there is evidence to present to the authorities.

[if he wants to win a GE]

Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864

The labour party is indulging in the same ideological bullshit that dogged it throughout the 1980s. As long as they persist with this shite they will never be elected. Kinnock, John Smith and Blair overseen the transition to a modern electable party by sidelining these fanatics who would rather be at war within their own party than actually win an election and run the government.  The messy ending of the Brown leadership allowed these people back to the table.
The UK is looking at in-built Tory dominance for a generation and no-one is to blame more than the left-wing of the labour party, their supporters and Ed Milliband in particular for creating the circumstances to allow the party to be taken over.  The obsession of the hard-left with rubbishing the Blair / Brown era only shows that these people belong in an entirely different party. Blair got plenty wrong, but the hard left see him and Starmer as greater enemies than Johnson and that is tragic. 

[As yet there is no evidence established to reassure me.]

Once I know the long term risks are minimal on a new vaccine created differently from every other vaccine I have taken, I will happily take it. The period is about 4/5 yrs of evidence that there is no long term implications and thats being generous. As yet there is no evidence established to reassure me. I know I am at risk, with my age profile and fitness but my risk is really minimal, but its still there and I am aware of that. I practise social distancing every day and hand washing etc very regularly. I am under the age of 50, fit, not over weight and have no under lying health conditions so my risk is minimal.

I'm sure lots of the people that won't take the vaccine drink alcohol, smoke, take drugs and eat too much sugar. They will blithely put all kinds of crap into their body over a long period of time that have long term implications for their health, but seemingly that is nothing to worry about. Ask them to take a vaccine and suddenly they become extremely conscientious about their health and will do all of their own research, finding "alternative experts" to inform their decision-making.

Most of this thinking is selfish, egotistical and narcissistic nonsense. This is a public health issue and public health is not just about individual risk.  It is about collective risk. While the vaccine might not make much difference to some individuals (and I doubt anyone can say with confidence if they are a person for whom the vaccine isn't necessary), when you have high levels of uptake its benefit for the collective is much greater. 

Vaccine passports can't come quick enough.  You'll soon see this principled nonsense go out the window when these "vaccine hesitators" are refused entry to pubs and restaurants.  All of a sudden, their "need to be reassured" will be dropped.

Sorry for being dumb, but what is the relevance of this story to the original post about Myers,

[losing 1 (1982)]

Look at the table below (last final in brackets).

In the last 50 years:

Kerry have been in 24 finals, losing 9 (2019)
Dublin have been in 20, losing 7 (2020)
Mayo have been in 11, losing 11 (2021)
Cork have been in 9 finals, losing 6 (2010)
Meath have been in 7, losing 3 (2001)
Tyrone have been in 7, losing 3 (2021)
Galway have been in 7 finals, losing 5 (2001)
Offaly have been in 4, losing 1 (1982)
Down have been in 3, losing 1 (2010)
Donegal have been in 3, losing 1 (2014)
Armagh have been in 3, losing 2 (2003)
Derry has been in 1, losing 0 (1993)
Roscommon have been in 1, losing 1 (1980)

It is very difficult to make it to an All Ireland final. In the last 50 years only 13 counties by my reckoning have reached All-Ireland finals. Outside of Dublin and Kerry, no-one has made it to more than Mayo. 

They have lost them all (shocking), but look at Meath, Galway, Cork - big beasts of the football world and 20 year gaps since the last appearance (and getting longer).  Bad and all as the last 10 years have been for Mayo, they have been at the top table and they have given a lot of joy (and heartache) to their followers. 

However, as Galway and Meath have found out, your place at the top table is not guaranteed. Some year, they won't bounce back and could very well slip into mediocrity.

Are you a cute Kerry hoor by any chance?? Claiming all Ireland's  that you didn't actually win

No wonder you have 37 

The year in brackets was the last year they played in an AIF - not the last year they lost.  Would love to be a cute Kerry huir, but I'm not cute, I'm not from Kerry although I might be a bit of a huir alright.

I did make a mistake with Cork. 10 finals, lost 6 the f**kers. 

There are probably other mistakes in there - in fact there definitely is.  I couldn't really give a crap to be honest. If any of you want to find them, knock yourselves out 

Interesting** theme coming through here:

Connacht teams have a terrible record in finals.  Galway and Roscommon aren't much to write home about either:
Between them , they have been in 8 and lost 6.
Ulster not bad and Leinster very impressive. 

* Win ratio in brackets

Connacht 19 finals - lost 17 (11%)
Ulster, 17 finals - lost 7 (59%)
Munster, 33 finals, lost 15 (55%)
Leinster, 31 finals, lost 11 (65%)

Of course all of this is completely meaningless, except it shows that far from being awake, the West are a pack of sleepy feckers

** The word interesting doing a lot of heavy lifting here