The SDLP

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

There is nobody in Irish politics trying to rewrite the troubles as much as SF. So if rewriting history irks you as you say you must be genuinely disgusted with SF.

Staggering ignorance.

Just yesterday we had a FF councillor on twitter claiming that the Provos carried out the Omagh bombing, and made the claim purely in an attempt to have a cheap pop at Sinn Féin. How's that for re-writing history? But sure, it was only the biggest atrocity of the conflict and sure it was all to take a pop at the shinners, so who cares eh?

But you're probably right. The state that went as far as introducing a law aimed at censoring what was reported about the conflict to the people of the south was probably not trying to subvert the truth of what was happening at all at all 

A FG TD claimed that the IRA committed the Dublin/Monaghan bombings (it was the UVF aided by arms of the British State) - an atrocity his party helped coverup and deny justice to the victims.

Another FG TD blamed Gerry Adams for loyalists coming into his constituency office and opening fire on unarmed civilians killing 3.

The narrative from FF/FG is that Northern nationalists deserved all they got and how dare them for fighting back.

The formation of the Provos was an inevitable reality during the troubles and it is the British and Free State Governments that have blood on their hands from their inaction.

Some outlandish claims there. The individuals making the claims are idiots.

The claim that FF/FG attitude to Northern nationalists was that deserved all they got is similarly idiotic. Where do get this shit.

You have never explained why, during the troubles, a majority of nationalists living in the prevailing condition NI never thought that the provos' actions were justified?

Outlandish claims are commonplace and happen on a daily basis down south from FF and FG.

We never had any sort of consensus whether the vast majority of nationalists supported the Provos or not. It's impossible to say because there is nothing to back up your assertion. The Provos could not operate as successfully as they did without the cooperation of local communities and certainly in the likes of South Armagh, East Tyrone and South Derry they would have had significant support in local areas as well as urban cities like Belfast and Derry.

Well that seems to be attitude of FF/FG. They consistently try to politicise the troubles, you and I both know about the role the British State played in many atrocities on innocent nationalist civilians and their dirty campaign north of the border and in the Dublin Monaghan bombings too. Yet where is the political pressure there from FF/FG? Why do they consistently ignore the vast majority of nationalist victims of the Troubles?

They have no problem trying to play political football with victims of the trouble but when they had the opportunity to assist the McAnespie family to get justice they actively thwarted the quest and refused to release what could be an invaluable report in doing so.

They operated with about 10% support of nationalist population until ceasefire

Care to substantiate this claim with any evidence? While you attempt to, I'll direct you this QUB study carried out in 2005, which found that "42 percent of Catholics expressed sympathy for republican paramilitary groups" and goes to to say "The opinion poll evidence in both societies about support for physical force tells a remarkably consistent—and shocking—story. As in previous research, (25) the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends" https://www.abdn.ac.uk/staffpages/uploads/soc207/polviolence.pdf

As you admit yourself that document does not suggest a majority but also critically it does not show any sympathy for the actions of the IRA. None

So a study which found that 42% of nationalists had some degree of sympathy for the armed republican campaign during the troubles doesn't actually contain evidence of any nationalist sympathy for the armed campaign? Hmmm.

Because that is not what the research says. The questions was so you have sympathy for the causes and expressly does not ask for sympathy for the actions. It calls that out. Hence a figure of 10% of Protestants having sympathy. It doesn't say how many of the respondents said yes to both loyalist and republican side of the question which would be an interesting further piece of analysis

To quote the report itself:

42 percent of Catholics as compared to just 10 percent of Protestants in Northern Ireland expressed sympathy for republican paramilitary groups

and....

"As in previous research, the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends. There is perhaps no other advanced industrial society where such large numbers of people effectively condone terrorism"

You may contact QUB and tell these academics that they don't understand their own research.

At least I read their research

The 42% figure you use comes from an earlier bit of research that is quoted in the QUB paper. It comes from this table

Republicans...............Prods..............Taigs
A lot of sympathy.......0%.................7.4%
A Little sympathy.......10.2%.............34.6%
No Sympathy.............89.9%............58%

Loyalist
A lot of sympathy........4.6%.............1.9%
A Little sympathy........19.5%............28.9%
No Sympathy..............75.9%...........69.2%
Your 42% is the aggregate of the 2 numbers in bold.

You conveniently ignore that these are the responses to the following specific question:
''Now thinking about the reasons why some Loyalist groups have used violence during the troubles, would you say that you have any sympathy with the reasons for violence, even if you don't condone the violence yourself? And, thinking about the reasons why some Republican groups have used violence during the troubles, would you say that you have any sympathy with the reasons for violence, even if you don't condone the violence yourself?''

That is why you get some protestants sympathising with the conditions giving rise to republican violence and a whopping 30.8% of catholic respondents sympathising with the conditions giving rise to loyalist. They are expressly not condoning the violent actions. Your unique interpretation of this research would lead you to conclude that level of catholic support for loyalist violence ran at 73% of the level of catholic support for republican violence. That should serve to illustrate how far off the mark you are in your interpretation.

I know you thought upou had hit upon a gem of a source but lets face it you cocked up

Lol. Boom . Excuse the pun

[Snapchap]

Yeah yours are probably right. The authors of the study obviously didn't understand their own research.

"As in previous research, the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends. There is perhaps no other advanced industrial society where such large numbers of people effectively condone terrorism"

[Applesisapples]

I'm just pointing out the absence of integrity in your personal position on this.

As for FG and FF I have no problem with their general view on NI. Obviously there are exceptions to that. Political interference to prevent an inquiry or disclosure of inquiry findings would be such an exception.

So you have no problem with FF/FG using victims of the Troubles as political footballs to score points while they continue to frustrate the likes of the McAnespie family in their bid for justice?

What FF/FG serve to do is rewrite the narrative of The Troubles. They only focus on the victims of the Provos, but the vast, vast amount of nationalists were victims of the British State, their security forces and the loyalist murder squads they colluded with and what is the FF/FG stance on that?

FF/FG routinely namecheck Tom Oliver, Paul Quinn, Jean McConville, Mairia Cahill etc but they wouldn't be able to name you nationalist victim of British state forces. That is as callous as it gets. FG TDs coming out and blaming the IRA for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings when their own party sought to cover it up. Appointing a RUC stooge as head of their police force.

FF/FG are every bit as bad as the DUP.

Well I have no problem with people being held to account? FG and certainly FF have the skeletons. By all means go after them. I'm no fan of either Party. Shinners have some serious dirt in their past and a good deal in their present. Hold them to account.

In my earlier post I specifically mentioned inquiries. So your question re McAnespie is baffling.

There is nobody in Irish politics trying to rewrite the troubles as much as SF. So if rewriting history irks you as you say you must be genuinely disgusted with SF.

You describe someone as being callous based upon evidence that exists in your head.

I think you are unwell.

The ceasefire was over 20 odd years ago. If you are digging up dirt then none of the main political parties on this island have clean hands. Murder in 1920 is no different to murder in 1970 or 1990 if you take that view, yet for many in the South and some in the North one was a fight for freedom the other a terrorist campaign. They are both the same thing. it is hypocritical to view them differently.

[LCohen]

I'm just pointing out the absence of integrity in your personal position on this.

As for FG and FF I have no problem with their general view on NI. Obviously there are exceptions to that. Political interference to prevent an inquiry or disclosure of inquiry findings would be such an exception.

So you have no problem with FF/FG using victims of the Troubles as political footballs to score points while they continue to frustrate the likes of the McAnespie family in their bid for justice?

What FF/FG serve to do is rewrite the narrative of The Troubles. They only focus on the victims of the Provos, but the vast, vast amount of nationalists were victims of the British State, their security forces and the loyalist murder squads they colluded with and what is the FF/FG stance on that?

FF/FG routinely namecheck Tom Oliver, Paul Quinn, Jean McConville, Mairia Cahill etc but they wouldn't be able to name you nationalist victim of British state forces. That is as callous as it gets. FG TDs coming out and blaming the IRA for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings when their own party sought to cover it up. Appointing a RUC stooge as head of their police force.

FF/FG are every bit as bad as the DUP.

Well I have no problem with people being held to account? FG and certainly FF have the skeletons. By all means go after them. I'm no fan of either Party. Shinners have some serious dirt in their past and a good deal in their present. Hold them to account.

In my earlier post I specifically mentioned inquiries. So your question re McAnespie is baffling.

There is nobody in Irish politics trying to rewrite the troubles as much as SF. So if rewriting history irks you as you say you must be genuinely disgusted with SF.

You describe someone as being callous based upon evidence that exists in your head.

I think you are unwell.

The ceasefire was over 20 odd years ago. If you are digging up dirt then none of the main political parties on this island have clean hands. Murder in 1920 is no different to murder in 1970 or 1990 if you take that view, yet for many in the South and some in the North one was a fight for freedom the other a terrorist campaign. They are both the same thing. it is hypocritical to view them differently.

And you will be first to admit that I haven't condoned any violence from any quarter in any time period.

You will also note that I am not a supporter of any of the parties mentioned (FG, FF, SF or SDLP).

[LCohen]

Yeah yours are probably right. The authors of the study obviously didn't understand their own research.

"As in previous research, the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends. There is perhaps no other advanced industrial society where such large numbers of people effectively condone terrorism"

When Covid restrictions are relaxed I'll pop along to QUB and show them how there is an issue with the understanding of their research. If you could be come along with me I would ask that you don't get uppity if I refer to you as "Exhibit A"?

[Angelo]

And you will be first to admit that I haven't condoned any violence from any quarter in any time period.

You will also note that I am not a supporter of any of the parties mentioned (FG, FF, SF or SDLP).

You entered this thread to defend FF/FG blindly and have proceeded to make a litany of unsubstantiated claims.

Your "I'm not a stoop" act is about as credible as any of your arguments

[Snapchap]

Yeah yours are probably right. The authors of the study obviously didn't understand their own research.

"As in previous research, the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends. There is perhaps no other advanced industrial society where such large numbers of people effectively condone terrorism"

When Covid restrictions are relaxed I'll pop along to QUB and show them how there is an issue with the understanding of their research. If you could be come along with me I would ask that you don't get uppity if I refer to you as "Exhibit A"?

No you can go on ahead. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to go to a University and tell the authors of a research project that you understand it better than they do.

[LCohen]

And you will be first to admit that I haven't condoned any violence from any quarter in any time period.

You will also note that I am not a supporter of any of the parties mentioned (FG, FF, SF or SDLP).

You entered this thread to defend FF/FG blindly and have proceeded to make a litany of unsubstantiated claims.

Your "I'm not a stoop" act is about as credible as any of your arguments

I did not blindly defend anybody. You know that. Anybody who read the posts knows that.

I am not an SDLP supporter. Apart from throwing them a vote well down the card I have voted for them twice in my life. Once early on and once tactically. The latter was quite recent I will admit. But they are not my party of choice. So stop your silly little games

[LCohen]

Yeah yours are probably right. The authors of the study obviously didn't understand their own research.

"As in previous research, the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends. There is perhaps no other advanced industrial society where such large numbers of people effectively condone terrorism"

When Covid restrictions are relaxed I'll pop along to QUB and show them how there is an issue with the understanding of their research. If you could be come along with me I would ask that you don't get uppity if I refer to you as "Exhibit A"?

No you can go on ahead. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to go to a University and tell the authors of a research project that you understand it better than they do.

While you are on can you at least confirm that my analysis of the 42% stat is 100% correct

[Angelo]

And you will be first to admit that I haven't condoned any violence from any quarter in any time period.

You will also note that I am not a supporter of any of the parties mentioned (FG, FF, SF or SDLP).

You entered this thread to defend FF/FG blindly and have proceeded to make a litany of unsubstantiated claims.

Your "I'm not a stoop" act is about as credible as any of your arguments

I did not blindly defend anybody. You know that. Anybody who read the posts knows that.

I am not an SDLP supporter. Apart from throwing them a vote well down the card I have voted for them twice in my life. Once early on and once tactically. The latter was quite recent I will admit. But they are not my party of choice. So stop your silly little games

I'm not playing games and the only one being silly is you.

You came on here with willful ignorance to defend FF/FG. You then proceeded to drag in SF out on nowhere when doing so, went on to make a number of allegations and claims with absolutely no substance towards them.

And you top it all off with the "I'm not a Stoop" line.  Belter.

[Applesisapples]

I'm just pointing out the absence of integrity in your personal position on this.

As for FG and FF I have no problem with their general view on NI. Obviously there are exceptions to that. Political interference to prevent an inquiry or disclosure of inquiry findings would be such an exception.

So you have no problem with FF/FG using victims of the Troubles as political footballs to score points while they continue to frustrate the likes of the McAnespie family in their bid for justice?

What FF/FG serve to do is rewrite the narrative of The Troubles. They only focus on the victims of the Provos, but the vast, vast amount of nationalists were victims of the British State, their security forces and the loyalist murder squads they colluded with and what is the FF/FG stance on that?

FF/FG routinely namecheck Tom Oliver, Paul Quinn, Jean McConville, Mairia Cahill etc but they wouldn't be able to name you nationalist victim of British state forces. That is as callous as it gets. FG TDs coming out and blaming the IRA for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings when their own party sought to cover it up. Appointing a RUC stooge as head of their police force.

FF/FG are every bit as bad as the DUP.

Well I have no problem with people being held to account? FG and certainly FF have the skeletons. By all means go after them. I'm no fan of either Party. Shinners have some serious dirt in their past and a good deal in their present. Hold them to account.

In my earlier post I specifically mentioned inquiries. So your question re McAnespie is baffling.

There is nobody in Irish politics trying to rewrite the troubles as much as SF. So if rewriting history irks you as you say you must be genuinely disgusted with SF.

You describe someone as being callous based upon evidence that exists in your head.

I think you are unwell.

The ceasefire was over 20 odd years ago. If you are digging up dirt then none of the main political parties on this island have clean hands. Murder in 1920 is no different to murder in 1970 or 1990 if you take that view, yet for many in the South and some in the North one was a fight for freedom the other a terrorist campaign. They are both the same thing. it is hypocritical to view them differently.

And you will be first to admit that I haven't condoned any violence from any quarter in any time period.

You will also note that I am not a supporter of any of the parties mentioned (FG, FF, SF or SDLP).

So where do you stand on FF and FG and the '20's then?

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Yeah yours are probably right. The authors of the study obviously didn't understand their own research.

"As in previous research, the results show that significant minorities within both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland (as well as within each of their respective religious communities) support the use of violence for political ends. There is perhaps no other advanced industrial society where such large numbers of people effectively condone terrorism"

When Covid restrictions are relaxed I'll pop along to QUB and show them how there is an issue with the understanding of their research. If you could be come along with me I would ask that you don't get uppity if I refer to you as "Exhibit A"?

No you can go on ahead. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to go to a University and tell the authors of a research project that you understand it better than they do.

While you are on can you at least confirm that my analysis of the 42% stat is 100% correct

Of course your analysis is true and as Redhand said "Burn"

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

I'm just pointing out the absence of integrity in your personal position on this.

As for FG and FF I have no problem with their general view on NI. Obviously there are exceptions to that. Political interference to prevent an inquiry or disclosure of inquiry findings would be such an exception.

So you have no problem with FF/FG using victims of the Troubles as political footballs to score points while they continue to frustrate the likes of the McAnespie family in their bid for justice?

What FF/FG serve to do is rewrite the narrative of The Troubles. They only focus on the victims of the Provos, but the vast, vast amount of nationalists were victims of the British State, their security forces and the loyalist murder squads they colluded with and what is the FF/FG stance on that?

FF/FG routinely namecheck Tom Oliver, Paul Quinn, Jean McConville, Mairia Cahill etc but they wouldn't be able to name you nationalist victim of British state forces. That is as callous as it gets. FG TDs coming out and blaming the IRA for the Dublin/Monaghan bombings when their own party sought to cover it up. Appointing a RUC stooge as head of their police force.

FF/FG are every bit as bad as the DUP.

Well I have no problem with people being held to account? FG and certainly FF have the skeletons. By all means go after them. I'm no fan of either Party. Shinners have some serious dirt in their past and a good deal in their present. Hold them to account.

In my earlier post I specifically mentioned inquiries. So your question re McAnespie is baffling.

There is nobody in Irish politics trying to rewrite the troubles as much as SF. So if rewriting history irks you as you say you must be genuinely disgusted with SF.

You describe someone as being callous based upon evidence that exists in your head.

I think you are unwell.

The ceasefire was over 20 odd years ago. If you are digging up dirt then none of the main political parties on this island have clean hands. Murder in 1920 is no different to murder in 1970 or 1990 if you take that view, yet for many in the South and some in the North one was a fight for freedom the other a terrorist campaign. They are both the same thing. it is hypocritical to view them differently.

I totally agree on your point on 20sv70s. But on the other hand we still have Murphy in govt TODAY refusing to retract what he said to back up the murder of Paul Quinn. To say that no parties have their hands clean is absolutely untrue

[Armamike]

It's a very sad state of affairs that the majority here still vote in the 2 main parties along green and orange lines. It's not on the basis of their competence anyway! 

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

It's a very sad state of affairs that the majority here still vote in the 2 main parties along green and orange lines. It's not on the basis of their competence anyway!

Truest thing said on here