QuoteI've never once objected to a single post about any victim/s of the Troubles, and this forum has been filled with them over the years
So why do you object?
The mindset it takes to write the bolded part there boggles
Sadly there is a concerted strategy by a certain breed of northern nationalists to dehumanise "themmuns" and dismiss crucial truths which threaten the narrative of Sinn Fein through the construction of a Putinesque world of ultra-cynicism whereby anybody who voices these crucial and inconvenient truths is vilified
The irony is that those who dismiss voices of others as having "cynical motive" are the very people who buy into that Putinesque world of ultra-cynicism themselves, and they cannot comprehend how anybody might actually look at things through such framings as basic right and wrong
The breed of northern nationalists I reference above claim to want honesty, but in practice, they want the exact opposite, they want the truth swept under the carpet
As a northern nationalist myself, I don't understand this post. Perhaps Syd could elaborate?
I expect this thread to be fireworks.
Basically,
The 'old' IRA were noble freedom fighters.
The 'new' IRA were terrorists.
....and nationalists in the 6 counties should have just have accepted their fate after '69.
Sid says it was ok to kill civilians in the 1920s.
Info note
Irish Free State went out of existence this date in 1937.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 29, 2020, 02:08:35 PM
Info note
Irish Free State went out of existence this date in 1937.
It will always be the Free State to me anyway.
Nationalism is a disease.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Quote from: dublin7 on December 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
Is there a country in the world that isn't infected?
Quote from: dublin7 on December 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
The hilarious thing about Irish ultra-nationalists is their default reaction to any Irish person who disagrees with them is to deny that person's nationality
They genuinely think calling somebody a "West Brit" is an ace debating tactic rather than a demonstration of a paucity of argument
The Free Staters showing shame is not something in their vocabulary.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:15:41 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
The hilarious thing about Irish ultra-nationalists is their default reaction to any Irish person who disagrees with them is to deny that person's nationality
They genuinely think calling somebody a "West Brit" is an ace debating tactic rather than a demonstration of a paucity of argument
Is it ok to disagree with someone or do we just follow your views?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish
without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:23:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:15:41 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
The hilarious thing about Irish ultra-nationalists is their default reaction to any Irish person who disagrees with them is to deny that person's nationality
They genuinely think calling somebody a "West Brit" is an ace debating tactic rather than a demonstration of a paucity of argument
Is it ok to disagree with someone or do we just follow your views?
I'm not the person acting as the thought police here mate
That'd be the Shinners
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 03:16:21 PM
The Free Staters showing shame is not something in their vocabulary.
Do you show shame?
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think
I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:30:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 03:16:21 PM
The Free Staters showing shame is not something in their vocabulary.
Do you show shame?
Free Staters don't for all the people they killed only to betray their northern brethern and sit back and watch as they were dehumanised under British rule, then moralise and pontificate to them when they dared defend themselves.
It's about time the Free State apologised to northern nationalists for the treachery and abandonment once they obtained their freedom. It is sad the way you now try and rewrite history to defend the murder of civilians.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 03:57:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:30:25 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 03:16:21 PM
The Free Staters showing shame is not something in their vocabulary.
Do you show shame?
Free Staters don't for all the people they killed only to betray their northern brethern and sit back and watch as they were dehumanised under British rule, then moralise and pontificate to them when they dared defend themselves.
It's about time the Free State apologised to northern nationalists for the treachery and abandonment once they obtained their freedom. It is sad the way you now try and rewrite history to defend the murder of civilians.
Now
that's pontificating
Not answer to the question though
Did you, who self-identifies as a PIRA supporter, show shame for all the civilians your crowd murdered?
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
To be honest Sid comes across as a bit of a pseudo-intellectual of the Ruth Dudley Edwards school of thinking. Best ignored.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists
I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day
The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic
Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't ;D
Some rabbit hole that
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists
I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day
The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic
Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't ;D
Some rabbit hole that
Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.
Do point out were I said murdering civilians is ok?
Unless you're brain dead, I put up I was against violence.
But let's see how many times we can get the word Trump into your posts
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on December 29, 2020, 04:04:39 PM
To be honest Sid comes across as a bit of a pseudo-intellectual of the Ruth Dudley Edwards school of thinking. Best ignored.
And again a northern nationalist resorts to name calling
Some lads here seem hell bent on proving my points for me
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 03:14:55 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
Is there a country in the world that isn't infected?
Exactly. And it has been like that for centuries. The difference now is that Social Media gives everyone an equal platform. Individually, we have to learn how to consume, make sense of the tidal wave of messages and guage the norm. For their own sanity, the middle ground tend not to get involved in online debates.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:15:24 PM
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on December 29, 2020, 04:04:39 PM
To be honest Sid comes across as a bit of a pseudo-intellectual of the Ruth Dudley Edwards school of thinking. Best ignored.
And again a northern nationalist resorts to name calling
Some lads here seem hell bent on proving my points for me
Just tell me that you're not Dudley Edwards (who, by the way, discovered that Orangism in good and Nationalism in bad).
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists
I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day
The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic
Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't ;D
Some rabbit hole that
Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here
Of course it doesn't, but then again I was basically told I hadn't a clue simply for pointing out that the PIRA campaign achieved nothing except societal devastation
Seems most of the northern Catholic population who lived through the PIRA campaign agreed with me
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists
I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day
The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic
Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't ;D
Some rabbit hole that
Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
I believe anyone in Ireland can have a view in any part of the country. It should be an informed view though and not just orepearing things you have read or heard
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
Quote from: Orior on December 29, 2020, 04:16:02 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 03:14:55 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on December 29, 2020, 02:16:16 PM
Nationalism is a disease.
I thoroughly agree
Plenty of posters here waaaay down that rabbit hole
Agreed. Amazing what can be justified in the the name of nationalism
Is there a country in the world that isn't infected?
Exactly. And it has been like that for centuries. The difference now is that Social Media gives everyone an equal platform. Individually, we have to learn how to consume, make sense of the tidal wave of messages and guage the norm. For their own sanity, the middle ground tend not to get involved in online debates.
Perhaps the reason the middle ground tend not to get involved in online debates about this topic is that when they do, they get called "West Brits" and "Ruth Dudley Edwards"
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here
Of course it doesn't, but then again I was basically told I hadn't a clue simply for pointing out that the PIRA campaign achieved nothing except societal devastation
Seems most of the northern Catholic population who lived through the PIRA campaign agreed with me
I would say without the Provos campaign, the brits would not have coke to the negotiating table. That doesn't make everything they done ok or right. And in no way diminished the contributions of great men such as Hume and Mallon.
That's a lot of assuming there Sid..
But if anyone has a view on things in the south or America (Wtf) you've all the answers! How ta f**k to you get that head through the door or lift it off the bed?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:27:00 PM
That's a lot of assuming there Sid..
But if anyone has a view on things in the south or America (Wtf) you've all the answers! How ta f**k to you get that head through the door or lift it off the bed?
But I don't have all the answers and never have claimed to
That'd generally be the Shinners and the Trumpists
I certainly don't have all the answers about Republic of Ireland politics
I give my opinions and people are entitled to disagree with them
Most people who disagree with my opinions just fire names around though
And they aren't entitled to their own facts
Understandably I don't find that very persuasive
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
I think you'll find I receive far more insults than I dish out and any insults I dish out are generally more than merited
I wouldn't debate opinions if I didn't think I was right
Why would anybody
Instead of moaning about my opinions, say why they're wrong
Very few people do that, far easier to just shout "Ruth Dudley Edwards" or "West Brit" or say I don't have a right to an opinion
That's persuasive, yeah
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 04:26:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
How exactly did you reach that conclusion? Not voting SF or supporting the PIRA/INLA or whoever does not mean they have no idea what it was like to live here
Of course it doesn't, but then again I was basically told I hadn't a clue simply for pointing out that the PIRA campaign achieved nothing except societal devastation
Seems most of the northern Catholic population who lived through the PIRA campaign agreed with me
I would say without the Provos campaign, the brits would not have coke to the negotiating table. That doesn't make everything they done ok or right. And in no way diminished the contributions of great men such as Hume and Mallon.
Even in the hypothetical event the Unionists/Brits hadn't come to the negotiating table before 1998, a peaceful strategy would probably still have saved well over 3,000 lives, which in and of itself would have been a very good thing
Nobody can say exactly what would have happened without the PIRA, but the view that without them things would have remained the same in Northern Ireland between 1969 and 1998 is quite the fringe one I would suggest
The momentum for Civil Rights and a free and fair society would likely have soon proved unstoppable had killing not taken over as the modus operandi, I would suspect
The one thing that makes opponents of a free and fair society dig in to prevent it, is mass killing
Nowhere exists in a vacuum - but what can create a vacuum and kill the chance for peaceful advance through politics, for a long, long time at least, is mass killing and sustained violence
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 04:24:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists
I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day
The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic
Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't ;D
Some rabbit hole that
Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
I believe anyone in Ireland can have a view in any part of the country. It should be an informed view though and not just orepearing things you have read or heard
The problem here is that my opinions
are informed and a certain breed of northern nationalist doesn't like that
Hence the arrival of the thought police to threads, and the re-education attempts
You form opinions through reading, hearing, watching and listening, to say otherwise would be to say that nobody here has a right to have an opinion on the Nazis because nobody here has personal experience of being oppressed by them
That would be to say that there should be no such thing as historians
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
Ah, partitionism from the self professed follower of the PIRA!
Telling an Irishman he has no right to an opinion!
In that case, why don't you take your own advice and shut up about southern politics?!
That's not me asking you - because
I think you have a right to an opinion on southern politics - it's
you asking you ;D
I wasn't looking for a comprehensive vindication of my posts here, but thanks for giving it all the same!
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 04:24:57 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:15:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:10:10 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 04:03:08 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:51:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
You've literally no idea of life in the north, none, you're assessment is based on living in the south.
Be like me assessing what life would have been like without having my bag searched on way to school house being searched, intimidating work environments, job inequality, no housing, gerrymandering, I could go on.
Nice sitting in Ivory tower looking down.
Im not SF nor for violence.
If you believe that, then neither has Sinn Fein's leadership
The majority of the Catholic population of the north apparently had no idea what it was like to live there, given they didn't vote for Sinn Fein and didn't support the IRA
I believe you've no idea, unless you can provide me with your time, you life in the north. Your experience of the north consisted of?
Ah, the old "you don't live here" excuse beloved of the Trump cultists
I wasn't aware you had to live anywhere in particular to know that murdering civilians is wrong, but sure you learn something new every day
The same Shinners and nationalists who wheel out these weasel words are generally the same ones who have extremely strong views on politics in the Republic, but by their own logic they have no right to hold any views on politics in the Republic
Partitionists when it suits them and anti-partitionists when it doesn't ;D
Some rabbit hole that
Well that's a lie. You have all the hallmarks of a Trumpist.
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
I believe anyone in Ireland can have a view in any part of the country. It should be an informed view though and not just orepearing things you have read or heard
The problem here is that my opinions are informed and a certain breed of northern nationalist doesn't like that
Hence the arrival of the thought police to threads, and the re-education attempts
You form opinions through reading, hearing, watching and listening, to say otherwise would be to say that nobody here has a right to have an opinion on the Nazis because nobody here has personal experience of being oppressed by them
That would be to say that there should be no such thing as historians
That was maybe worded poorly. Of course that's how you learn and form opinions. I meant by listening to people with skewed agendas and what not. People like RDE. Or not looking into seeing if what you have read/heard has any basis in truth. Note I am not calling you an RDE. FWIW what it's worth I generally like your posts and agree with a lot of them.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:36:24 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
I think you'll find I receive far more insults than I dish out and any insults I dish out are generally more than merited
I wouldn't debate opinions if I didn't think I was right
Why would anybody
Instead of moaning about my opinions, say why they're wrong
Very few people do that, far easier to just shout "Ruth Dudley Edwards" or "West Brit" or say I don't have a right to an opinion
That's persuasive, yeah
Everybody has a right to an opinion. Wether that opinion is informed or correct is a different question and can be debated.
Speaking for myself i've been wrong on quite a few occasions and i'm not afraid to admit it on this forum or in real life. I've certainly been enlightened by some of the other posters and while not changing my fundamental beliefs its certainly led to me having a more nuanced view of some ofnthe subject matter.
In fact i've yet to meet a single human being who has been right 100% of the time.
So can i ask has there been any serious topic that you have changed your mind on or been proven incorrect on this forum?
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
Ah, partitionism from the self professed follower of the PIRA!
Telling an Irishman he has no right to an opinion!
In that case, why don't you take your own advice and shut up about southern politics?!
That's not me asking you - because I think you have a right to an opinion on southern politics - it's you asking you ;D
I wasn't looking for a comprehensive vindication of my posts here, but thanks for giving it all the same!
You're just an ignoramus, spouting on about things you have the foggiest notion on.
I have an opinion on politics in Ireland, there are two rotten states on this island. DUP/UUP have sought to create and preserve an elite Protestant ascendancy and FF/FG have done the same with a Catholic ascendancy. You have no notion on the practicality of growing up in a state where the institutions were used to an oppress a large pocket of the population. Your own free state government were compliant in this.
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:36:24 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
I think you'll find I receive far more insults than I dish out and any insults I dish out are generally more than merited
I wouldn't debate opinions if I didn't think I was right
Why would anybody
Instead of moaning about my opinions, say why they're wrong
Very few people do that, far easier to just shout "Ruth Dudley Edwards" or "West Brit" or say I don't have a right to an opinion
That's persuasive, yeah
Everybody has a right to an opinion. Wether that opinion is informed or correct is a different question and can be debated.
Speaking for myself i've been wrong on quite a few occasions and i'm not afraid to admit it on this forum or in real life. I've certainly been enlightened by some of the other posters and while not changing my fundamental beliefs its certainly led to me having a more nuanced view of some ofnthe subject matter.
In fact i've yet to meet a single human being who has been right 100% of the time.
So can i ask has there been any serious topic that you have changed your mind on or been proven incorrect on this forum?
I previously supported Sinn Fein (2011 and 2016 elections - Eoin O'Broin, Dublin Mid West) and now think I was wrong to do that
I switched to the Green Party/assorted left parties/candidates after that
I didn't change my views because of what I read on this forum, well actually a small part of it might have been because of the views of Sinn Fein supporters on this forum
I changed mainly because Brexit and Trump made me see that nationalism is dangerous as f**k though I do remain sympathetic or somewhat sympathetic to a lot of Sinn Fein's stances on bread and butter issues - the problem for me is that I firmly believe - and nobody has yet explained to me how this is not the case - that one cannot be a member of Sinn Fein and believe that the PIRA's campaign was an abomination - the central defining characteristic of the party is belief that the PIRA was right to do what it did
I also see that Sinn Fein has bought into the ultra-cynical Putin/Trump style world of ultra-negativity, truth twisting or truth denial, and a highly aggressive, bullying online presence
All that adds up to rotten, naked nationalism
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:36:24 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
I think you'll find I receive far more insults than I dish out and any insults I dish out are generally more than merited
I wouldn't debate opinions if I didn't think I was right
Why would anybody
Instead of moaning about my opinions, say why they're wrong
Very few people do that, far easier to just shout "Ruth Dudley Edwards" or "West Brit" or say I don't have a right to an opinion
That's persuasive, yeah
Everybody has a right to an opinion. Wether that opinion is informed or correct is a different question and can be debated.
Speaking for myself i've been wrong on quite a few occasions and i'm not afraid to admit it on this forum or in real life. I've certainly been enlightened by some of the other posters and while not changing my fundamental beliefs its certainly led to me having a more nuanced view of some ofnthe subject matter.
In fact i've yet to meet a single human being who has been right 100% of the time.
So can i ask has there been any serious topic that you have changed your mind on or been proven incorrect on this forum?
I previously supported Sinn Fein (2011 and 2016 elections - Eoin O'Broin, Dublin Mid West) and now think I was wrong to do that
I switched to the Green Party/assorted left parties/candidates after that
I didn't change my views because of what I read on this forum, well actually a small part of it might have been because of the views of Sinn Fein supporters on this forum
I changed mainly because Brexit and Trump made me see that nationalism is dangerous as f**k though I do remain sympathetic or somewhat sympathetic to a lot of Sinn Fein's stances on bread and butter issues - the problem for me is that I firmly believe - and nobody has yet explained to me how this is not the case - that one cannot be a member of Sinn Fein and believe that the PIRA's campaign was an abomination - the central defining characteristic of the party is belief that the PIRA was right to do what it did
I also see that Sinn Fein has bought into the ultra-cynical Putin/Trump style world of ultra-negativity, truth twisting or truth denial, and a highly aggressive, bullying online presence
All that adds up to rotten, naked nationalism
The Green Party?
You must severely regret doing that now given their shameful role in government so far.
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:36:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
Ah, partitionism from the self professed follower of the PIRA!
Telling an Irishman he has no right to an opinion!
In that case, why don't you take your own advice and shut up about southern politics?!
That's not me asking you - because I think you have a right to an opinion on southern politics - it's you asking you ;D
I wasn't looking for a comprehensive vindication of my posts here, but thanks for giving it all the same!
You're just an ignoramus, spouting on about things you have the foggiest notion on.
I have an opinion on politics in Ireland, there are two rotten states on this island. DUP/UUP have sought to create and preserve an elite Protestant ascendancy and FF/FG have done the same with a Catholic ascendancy. You have no notion on the practicality of growing up in a state where the institutions were used to an oppress a large pocket of the population. Your own free state government were compliant in this.
I sure do, it's called the Republic of Ireland, and the "large pocket of the population" who were oppressed by state institutions are called women
They're also called Travellers, and LGBTQ+ people
I'm not sure of your views on Travellers but you certainly wanted women and LGBTQ+ to remain oppressed by state institutions
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:49:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:44:15 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 05:18:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:36:24 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:25:41 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 04:04:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:39:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 03:03:53 PM
This is the place to see the true colours of our Irish men. Ones that benefit from years of freedom and ones who still are under the rule of London..
All these Tit for tat posts will make good reading
Strange that, the Sinn Fein narrative here lately has been that the PIRA actually attained freedom for their people while the citizens of the Republic simultaneously languish without freedom under Fianna Fail and Fine Gael!
Now the narrative is the opposite!
Yis are fierce confused ;D
SF or PIRA didn't attain anything, The north is the same place as it was when the south turned its back on it, I think it's you that is confused
I agree they didn't attain anything - except societal devastation
But I haven't been claiming they attained anything - that'd be the Shinners trying to dress up a defeat as a victory
So I'm not sure how you'd think I'm confused
Confusion, I suppose
Sid,
Honest question. Has reading any of the input from other posters on this thread, the Sinn Fein thread or the US thread ever enlightened or caused you to re-evaluate your beliefs?
Surely the whole point of debate is to try and sway (at least some people to your line of thinking) and simultaneously trying to understand the other point of view and to theoretically (at least ) leave yourself open to be swayed the other way.
I'm always re-evaluating my beliefs
I certainly haven't been in any way swayed by any debate from Shinners, Trumpists or conservative Catholics on this forum because the standard of knowledge and debate is so low from them, and the bad faith is even worse
Right, so by insulting them do you think you will sway them over to your beliefs?
Do you think you have swayed or influenced the other posters?
If the answer is ' i don't care what they think '
Wtf is the point of debating on this forum. What do you hope to achieve bar convincing yourself you are right all the time?
I think you'll find I receive far more insults than I dish out and any insults I dish out are generally more than merited
I wouldn't debate opinions if I didn't think I was right
Why would anybody
Instead of moaning about my opinions, say why they're wrong
Very few people do that, far easier to just shout "Ruth Dudley Edwards" or "West Brit" or say I don't have a right to an opinion
That's persuasive, yeah
Everybody has a right to an opinion. Wether that opinion is informed or correct is a different question and can be debated.
Speaking for myself i've been wrong on quite a few occasions and i'm not afraid to admit it on this forum or in real life. I've certainly been enlightened by some of the other posters and while not changing my fundamental beliefs its certainly led to me having a more nuanced view of some ofnthe subject matter.
In fact i've yet to meet a single human being who has been right 100% of the time.
So can i ask has there been any serious topic that you have changed your mind on or been proven incorrect on this forum?
I previously supported Sinn Fein (2011 and 2016 elections - Eoin O'Broin, Dublin Mid West) and now think I was wrong to do that
I switched to the Green Party/assorted left parties/candidates after that
I didn't change my views because of what I read on this forum, well actually a small part of it might have been because of the views of Sinn Fein supporters on this forum
I changed mainly because Brexit and Trump made me see that nationalism is dangerous as f**k though I do remain sympathetic or somewhat sympathetic to a lot of Sinn Fein's stances on bread and butter issues - the problem for me is that I firmly believe - and nobody has yet explained to me how this is not the case - that one cannot be a member of Sinn Fein and believe that the PIRA's campaign was an abomination - the central defining characteristic of the party is belief that the PIRA was right to do what it did
I also see that Sinn Fein has bought into the ultra-cynical Putin/Trump style world of ultra-negativity, truth twisting or truth denial, and a highly aggressive, bullying online presence
All that adds up to rotten, naked nationalism
The Green Party?
You must severely regret doing that now given their shameful role in government so far.
There you go again, uttering opinions on southern politics, something that according to your own beliefs, you have no right to do!
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:51:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:36:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
Ah, partitionism from the self professed follower of the PIRA!
Telling an Irishman he has no right to an opinion!
In that case, why don't you take your own advice and shut up about southern politics?!
That's not me asking you - because I think you have a right to an opinion on southern politics - it's you asking you ;D
I wasn't looking for a comprehensive vindication of my posts here, but thanks for giving it all the same!
You're just an ignoramus, spouting on about things you have the foggiest notion on.
I have an opinion on politics in Ireland, there are two rotten states on this island. DUP/UUP have sought to create and preserve an elite Protestant ascendancy and FF/FG have done the same with a Catholic ascendancy. You have no notion on the practicality of growing up in a state where the institutions were used to an oppress a large pocket of the population. Your own free state government were compliant in this.
I sure do, it's called the Republic of Ireland, and the "large pocket of the population" who were oppressed by state institutions are called women
They're also called Travellers, and LGBTQ+ people
I'm not sure of your views on Travellers but you certainly wanted women and LGBTQ+ to remain oppressed by state institutions
I don't want any form of oppression. I would disagree that people killing unborn babies because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions is deplorable though.
You can't take back a like you ended but seeing as you are the only person that defended the murder of civilians on here then I can see how little value you put in human lives.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:53:56 PM
There you go again, uttering opinions on southern politics, something that according to your own beliefs, you have no right to do!
You failed to address the question. Not surprising as you are a ball of contradictions and virtue signaling but behind all that facade you are routinely exposed as morally bankrupt.
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers
That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have
Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future
Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism
As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:55:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:53:56 PM
There you go again, uttering opinions on southern politics, something that according to your own beliefs, you have no right to do!
You failed to address the question. Not surprising as you are a ball of contradictions and virtue signaling but behind all that facade you are routinely exposed as morally bankrupt.
You've literally never answered a single question I've asked you on this forum but nice attempt at a bait and switch
I asked you that as a self declared supporter of the PIRA, did you ever feel shame about the their actions, you still haven't answered
And you never will
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:54:28 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:51:06 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:36:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:02:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
Ah, partitionism from the self professed follower of the PIRA!
Telling an Irishman he has no right to an opinion!
In that case, why don't you take your own advice and shut up about southern politics?!
That's not me asking you - because I think you have a right to an opinion on southern politics - it's you asking you ;D
I wasn't looking for a comprehensive vindication of my posts here, but thanks for giving it all the same!
You're just an ignoramus, spouting on about things you have the foggiest notion on.
I have an opinion on politics in Ireland, there are two rotten states on this island. DUP/UUP have sought to create and preserve an elite Protestant ascendancy and FF/FG have done the same with a Catholic ascendancy. You have no notion on the practicality of growing up in a state where the institutions were used to an oppress a large pocket of the population. Your own free state government were compliant in this.
I sure do, it's called the Republic of Ireland, and the "large pocket of the population" who were oppressed by state institutions are called women
They're also called Travellers, and LGBTQ+ people
I'm not sure of your views on Travellers but you certainly wanted women and LGBTQ+ to remain oppressed by state institutions
I don't want any form of oppression. I would disagree that people killing unborn babies because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions is deplorable though.
You can't take back a like you ended but seeing as you are the only person that defended the murder of civilians on here then I can see how little value you put in human lives.
Ah, so you
do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
Fair point michaelg, but though Catholic unemployment is now equal to Protestant unemployment, it was double in 1992 and has progressively equalised since. So at the time MR entered the labour market his opportunities probably weren't as good as a Protestant contemporary
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:04:24 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 05:55:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 05:53:56 PM
There you go again, uttering opinions on southern politics, something that according to your own beliefs, you have no right to do!
You failed to address the question. Not surprising as you are a ball of contradictions and virtue signaling but behind all that facade you are routinely exposed as morally bankrupt.
You've literally never answered a single question I've asked you on this forum but nice attempt at a bait and switch
I asked you that as a self declared supporter of the PIRA, did you ever feel shame about the their actions, you still haven't answered
And you never will
And again you failed to address the question.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
Mick I worked in a engineering company that employed Over 4000 workers of which 99% of them came from the Protestant communities, now I'll tell you which communities they were. Shank I'll, Tiger bay Newtownards rd, Ards, and Protestant north Belfast.
These opportunities were not available to anyone in my dads family or his dads family. But you'd know that, from those books you've read..
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:25:58 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
Sid I worked in a engineering company that employed Over 4000 workers of which 99% of them came from the Protestant communities, now I'll tell you which communities they were. Shank I'll, Tiger bay Newtownards rd, Ards, and Protestant north Belfast.
These opportunities were not available to anyone in my dads family or his dads family. But you'd know that, from those books you've read..
I would know that actually
Pretty much everybody with an interest in politics in the south knows that
The problem with people like you is you think others are unaware of housing and workplace discrimination and gerrymandering when they're well aware of it, the dogs on the street down here know the history of discrimination in NI
My own grandmother had to fight for the rights of Catholic nurses to exercise their religion in the Royal Victoria in the 1930s
What I'm asking is how any of that legitimises a 28 year long murder campaign
Still haven't got an answer to that
The reason I haven't got an answer is because yis all know full well there was no justification for it, so yis can't provide one
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
I didn't say it did. That question is for someone else
With your knowledge can you give me plenty of examples were part of a county is divided and didn't end up in civil unrest and got equality or freedom without using military means?
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Catholic places in college have improved in line with SF's vote in the O6. So it probably is a lot to do with the PIRA.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:25:58 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
Mick I worked in a engineering company that employed Over 4000 workers of which 99% of them came from the Protestant communities, now I'll tell you which communities they were. Shank I'll, Tiger bay Newtownards rd, Ards, and Protestant north Belfast.
These opportunities were not available to anyone in my dads family or his dads family. But you'd know that, from those books you've read..
I wasn't having a go at you by the way. Merely pointing out that there were plenty of folk from working class unionist backgrounds too with limited opportunities.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Why wouldn't I have known that? I was in 3rd level education for 12 years.
That wasn't the question, since the 1920's we were not getting the same rights, education is one area, and the decades you speak of is the last 20 years or so. That still leaves us 80 of being left far short of what it should have been.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:46:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:25:58 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
Mick I worked in a engineering company that employed Over 4000 workers of which 99% of them came from the Protestant communities, now I'll tell you which communities they were. Shank I'll, Tiger bay Newtownards rd, Ards, and Protestant north Belfast.
These opportunities were not available to anyone in my dads family or his dads family. But you'd know that, from those books you've read..
I wasn't having a go at you by the way. Merely pointing out that there were plenty of folk from working class unionist backgrounds too with limited opportunities.
Maybe I was a bit abrasive there, apologies
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Catholic places in college have improved in line with SF's vote in the O6. So it probably is a lot to do with the PIRA.
Sure, mate, those PIRA scholarships and bursaries were invaluable
I hear the Gibraltar three were the finest Geography teachers in the wee six
Brendan Burns was a chemistry teacher extraordinaire killed by his own experiment in the lab
Jim Lynagh was PE teacher with a special interest in orienteering
Ivor Bell loved an oul' archeological dig
Who knows how many young Catholics would have made it to college but for their demise
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:49:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Why wouldn't I have known that? I was in 3rd level education for 12 years.
That wasn't the question, since the 1920's we were not getting the same rights, education is one area, and the decades you speak of is the last 20 years or so. That still leaves us 80 of being left far short of what it should have been.
I don't know why you wouldn't have known it
All I know is that it appears you didn't know it
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:53:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Catholic places in college have improved in line with SF's vote in the O6. So it probably is a lot to do with the PIRA.
Sure, mate, those PIRA scholarships and bursaries were invaluable
I hear the Gibraltar three were the finest Geography teachers in the wee six
Brendan Burns was a chemistry teacher extraordinaire killed by his own experiment in the lab
Jim Lynagh was PE teacher with a special interest in orienteering
Ivor Bell loved an oul' archeological dig
Who knows how many young Catholics would have made it to college but for their demise
You're morphing into Ruth Dudley Edwards again, hate and bigotry just oozes out of you.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
It's weird that you're so pro-PIRA and yet are so anti-old-IRA
A PIRA supporter who regrets that Ireland didn't remain part of the United Kingdom, this forum throws up all sorts
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:54:25 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:49:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:14:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on December 29, 2020, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 05:49:57 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly describe any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness.
Sammy Wilson Edwin Poots and Arlene also have been consistent on the north, their experiences are different to mine, completely different to Sids as well, it doesn't make them or him right, but I'd view a unionist view over his, that's been their experience, life and tradition.
An accident of birth means they have brought up different to me and given better opportunities also, I don't hate them for that.
Sids view is very black and white, he's managed to mention Trump Putin and even brought in Nazi's!
Not sure how old you are, but do you think that Protestants from the Shankill, Tiger's Bay etc had better opportunities open to them than you?
As of 2017, 47% of students in NI third level institutions were Catholics with only 30% Protestant
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/revealed-47-of-higher-education-students-are-catholics-and-30-protestants-35874614.html
That does not smack of a state which is "the same place as 1922", as Milltown Row claimed
As of 2017! Brilliant only taken 100 years to improve our worth, whereas when the south closed up shop, they had equality right away
The Catholic share of college places has been improving for decades
And none of it thanks to the PIRA
Interesting you're only finding out now that Catholics make up a much a bigger share of college place than Protestants
I would have thought that living there, you would have already known this
I suppose it's a demonstration that one can live somewhere and be still be blissfully unaware of basic facts about the place
Why wouldn't I have known that? I was in 3rd level education for 12 years.
That wasn't the question, since the 1920's we were not getting the same rights, education is one area, and the decades you speak of is the last 20 years or so. That still leaves us 80 of being left far short of what it should have been.
I don't know why you wouldn't have known it
All I know is that it appears you didn't know it
If you'd have asked me the question I'd have answered it, I've already said that to you in last post
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers
That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have
Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future
Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism
As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties
Just out of interest do you condemn loyalist and British army atrocities with the same vigour?
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Rotten state, really ? Go Angelo , obviously another shinner dim wit displaying exactly why SF will never be the most suitable party to lead our drive for UI
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 07:03:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers
That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have
Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future
Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism
As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties
Just out of interest do you condemn loyalist and British army atrocities with the same vigour?
Why wouldn't I?
The problem with this forum and with that type of ultra-paranoid nationalist opinion is that if you class Patrick Magee as murdering scum than people automatically assume you're an apologist for murdering scum like Torrens Knight or the paras on Bloody Sunday or Wright and Fisher or Lee Clegg
Yet that couldn't be further from the truth - obviously
This is a problem this strain of northern nationalism has to seriously confront - this ultra-paranoid "you're with the PIRA or you're against the Catholic population" mentality
It's crazy - but that's what nationalism is - the mentality that if you're not with us 100% you're agin us as a people
It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a united Ireland
Read what I've written about the DUP elsewhere and tell me whether its complimentary or not
The DUP is an ultra-nationalist party, the exact same pathology of the mind as Trump and Putin, the exact same eternal victimhood mentality
The best thing the north could ever do is to abandon Troubles politics and ditch the DUP/Sinn Fein cartel
But "themmuns" vote DUP because "youseuns" vote SF, and youseuns now vote SF because themmuns vote DUP
Chicken and egg
It's happening down here too
Fine Gael are happy with this because they see it as a way to maintain relevance, to be part of a new cartel against Sinn Fein and to cut Fianna Fail out
As I said previously, we're only just getting over Civil War politics now, a replacement of that with Troubles politics and rabid pro-united Ireland nationalist politics will be a disaster for politics in the Republic in general
But it looks like it's going to happen, and that means hard truths have to be confronted
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 07:59:16 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 07:03:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers
That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have
Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future
Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism
As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties
Just out of interest do you condemn loyalist and British army atrocities with the same vigour?
Why wouldn't I?
The problem with this forum and with that type of ultra-paranoid nationalist opinion is that if you class Patrick Magee as murdering scum than people automatically assume you're an apologist for murdering scum like Torrens Knight or the paras on Bloody Sunday or Wright and Fisher or Lee Clegg
Yet that couldn't be further from the truth - obviously
This is a problem this strain of northern nationalism has to seriously confront - this ultra-paranoid "you're with the PIRA or you're against the Catholic population" mentality
It's crazy - but that's what nationalism is - the mentality that if you're not with us 100% you're agin us as a people
It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a united Ireland
Read what I've written about the DUP elsewhere and tell me whether its complimentary or not
The DUP is an ultra-nationalist party, the exact same pathology of the mind as Trump and Putin, the exact same eternal victimhood mentality
The best thing the north could ever do is to abandon Troubles politics and ditch the DUP/Sinn Fein cartel
But "themmuns" vote DUP because "youseuns" vote SF, and youseuns now vote SF because themmuns vote DUP
Chicken and egg
It's happening down here too
Fine Gael are happy with this because they see it as a way to maintain relevance, to be part of a new cartel against Sinn Fein and to cut Fianna Fail out
As I said previously, we're only just getting over Civil War politics now, a replacement of that with Troubles politics and rabid pro-united Ireland nationalist politics will be a disaster for politics in the Republic in general
But it looks like it's going to happen, and that means hard truths have to be confronted
I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 07:59:16 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 07:03:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers
That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have
Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future
Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism
As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties
Just out of interest do you condemn loyalist and British army atrocities with the same vigour?
Why wouldn't I?
The problem with this forum and with that type of ultra-paranoid nationalist opinion is that if you class Patrick Magee as murdering scum than people automatically assume you're an apologist for murdering scum like Torrens Knight or the paras on Bloody Sunday or Wright and Fisher or Lee Clegg
Yet that couldn't be further from the truth - obviously
This is a problem this strain of northern nationalism has to seriously confront - this ultra-paranoid "you're with the PIRA or you're against the Catholic population" mentality
It's crazy - but that's what nationalism is - the mentality that if you're not with us 100% you're agin us as a people
It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a united Ireland
Read what I've written about the DUP elsewhere and tell me whether its complimentary or not
The DUP is an ultra-nationalist party, the exact same pathology of the mind as Trump and Putin, the exact same eternal victimhood mentality
The best thing the north could ever do is to abandon Troubles politics and ditch the DUP/Sinn Fein cartel
But "themmuns" vote DUP because "youseuns" vote SF, and youseuns now vote SF because themmuns vote DUP
Chicken and egg
It's happening down here too
Fine Gael are happy with this because they see it as a way to maintain relevance, to be part of a new cartel against Sinn Fein and to cut Fianna Fail out
As I said previously, we're only just getting over Civil War politics now, a replacement of that with Troubles politics and rabid pro-united Ireland nationalist politics will be a disaster for politics in the Republic in general
But it looks like it's going to happen, and that means hard truths have to be confronted
I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.
There aren't people defending murdering Loyalist and British Army scum on here
But there are some people defending their equivalent on the other side or offering weasel worded justifications for what they did
This island contains a large number of people who class themselves as British, not Irish
Any future form of a united Ireland will have to take this into account very, very, very carefully
On this thread and elsewhere, a common refrain from northern nationalists to people from the Republic is "youse abandoned us"
Well, those people who do not class themselves as Irish are going to feel exactly the same way if any form of united Ireland ever happens - that they have been abandoned
And this
is a problem
A problem which can only be approached by conciliation, understanding and recognition
My feeling is that there is a large rump of Irish nationalist opinion which simply does not understand this, and that a future united Ireland will be used to assert supremacy over Protestant Unionists
If Irish Catholics are aiming "West Brit" and "Ruth Dudley Edwards" jibes at fellow Irish Catholics, and they have been for years, what hope is there that Protestant Unionists will be treated any better by that rump, probably not much I'd say
Are you basing this on your knowledge?
How many Nationalist in the north claim to be British? That sounds completely wrong...
If there is a 50/50 split in the north or close to, that would make 900,000 wanting to be staying in the union, out of an island population of 6 million is that a sizeable amount?
As for 'youse' abandoning the north, it wasn't you personally, so don't take it personally, the government did and that's history, has been like that for us for 100 years
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 08:24:32 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 07:59:16 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 07:03:44 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on December 29, 2020, 05:30:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 04:22:08 PM
But it's not a lie
Southerners are continually told by a particular breed of northern nationalist, summed up you, that they should have no view on the north
But these same northern nationalists are total hypocrites because they generally have firm views on southern politics
Also if northern nationalists tell southerners they have no right to have a view on anything on the north, which they do, don't then turn around and tell us we "abandoned" you
After all, you're the same people telling us we've no right to have a view - and if that's the case, well then "abandonment" by the south is exactly what you wanted
More hypocrisy
You shouldn't have a view on the north because you haven't a clue about it, not one single iota. All you spout is complete and utter ignorance and bile about something you don't understand or have no practical experience of.
The only hypocrisy being shown here is from you. You're the type of person who would be dangerous if they had any intelligence.
I disagree with a lot of Sid's views, but he also
Makes very fair points , which tend to get undermined by his approach and apparent disdain for what he insultingly terms " a certain breed of northern nationalists" . He argues articulately but his apparent lack of understanding , empathy and rapport indicates a lack of the social intelligence required to be persuasive . Tbf he is very consistent/persistent but I would agree that his/her views need to be put into the context of lack
Of meaningful personal experience of "The North" . He deserves enormous credit however in uniting "northern nationalists" whether SF, SDLP or whoever else in opposition to his approach. I understand His opposition to the exclusive and unhealthy adherence to place manifested in nationalism , but this is in direct contrast to his unwavering Adherence to Dublin as an permanent entity in GAA terms. I would agree that his defence of Dublin's ridiculously unfair advantages is like those unionists who begrudgingly resist any movement towards equality , as if they are concessions . Understandable resistance to the nuclear option of splitting Dublin( or in unionists' case United Ireland) is accompanied by an unneighbourly lack
Of generosity towards agreeing to equality and fairness in the meantime.
It's hard not to have disdain for people who shower you with furious disdain merely for pointing out that the PIRA campaign was an abomination, or for pointing out that Margaret Tebbit, the wife of a Tory politician, was horrifically disabled by a bomb planted by PIRA murderers
That's the sort of healthy disdain everybody should have
Not having such leaves one open to supporting more abominations in the future
Very strange comparison of my support for Dublin GAA with blood and soil nationalism
As it happens I am open to the notion of a split in Dublin as long as it is accompanied by amalgamations of other counties
Just out of interest do you condemn loyalist and British army atrocities with the same vigour?
Why wouldn't I?
The problem with this forum and with that type of ultra-paranoid nationalist opinion is that if you class Patrick Magee as murdering scum than people automatically assume you're an apologist for murdering scum like Torrens Knight or the paras on Bloody Sunday or Wright and Fisher or Lee Clegg
Yet that couldn't be further from the truth - obviously
This is a problem this strain of northern nationalism has to seriously confront - this ultra-paranoid "you're with the PIRA or you're against the Catholic population" mentality
It's crazy - but that's what nationalism is - the mentality that if you're not with us 100% you're agin us as a people
It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks towards a united Ireland
Read what I've written about the DUP elsewhere and tell me whether its complimentary or not
The DUP is an ultra-nationalist party, the exact same pathology of the mind as Trump and Putin, the exact same eternal victimhood mentality
The best thing the north could ever do is to abandon Troubles politics and ditch the DUP/Sinn Fein cartel
But "themmuns" vote DUP because "youseuns" vote SF, and youseuns now vote SF because themmuns vote DUP
Chicken and egg
It's happening down here too
Fine Gael are happy with this because they see it as a way to maintain relevance, to be part of a new cartel against Sinn Fein and to cut Fianna Fail out
As I said previously, we're only just getting over Civil War politics now, a replacement of that with Troubles politics and rabid pro-united Ireland nationalist politics will be a disaster for politics in the Republic in general
But it looks like it's going to happen, and that means hard truths have to be confronted
I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.
There aren't people defending murdering Loyalist and British Army scum on here
But there are some people defending their equivalent on the other side or offering weasel worded justifications for what they did
This island contains a large number of people who class themselves as British, not Irish
Any future form of a united Ireland will have to take this into account very, very, very carefully
On this thread and elsewhere, a common refrain from northern nationalists to people from the Republic is "youse abandoned us"
Well, those people who do not class themselves as Irish are going to feel exactly the same way if any form of united Ireland ever happens - that they have been abandoned
And this is a problem
A problem which can only be approached by conciliation, understanding and recognition
My feeling is that there is a large rump of Irish nationalist opinion which simply does not understand this, and that a future united Ireland will be used to assert supremacy over Protestant Unionists
If Irish Catholics are aiming "West Brit" and "Ruth Dudley Edwards" jibes at fellow Irish Catholics, and they have been for years, what hope is there that Protestant Unionists will be treated any better by that rump, probably not much I'd say
I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA. Of course unionists and those who class themselves as British will be an important part of a UI, and would add to it. I don't know how to convince them of that though. I would imagine some don't want to be convinced and would rather listen to the likes of Bryson or RDE about the pitfalls of it all. Personally I think a UI is a great idea but will only ever remain an idea because realistically I don't see it working. And SF know that
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on December 29, 2020, 01:03:50 PM
I expect this thread to be fireworks.
Prediction of 50+ pages unless it gets locked!
It can work, I know plenty who from a unionist background wouldn't be too difficult to convince, if the right conditions were in place...
It needs a generational period of time to merge in, plenty of sweetners also. But with how good the Irish economy is doing it shouldn't be a problem
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.
And what political party represents this benevolent nationalism?
I think a United Ireland would have 850,000 or so people who identify as British too and it's success would depend how empathetic nationalists were to them. It's hard to be convinced that this would be the case.
Irish nationalism every bit as narrow as the British and USA models, it just mutates into different forms. Sinn Fein basically campaigned against joining EU and every major EU treaty and up until Brexit had much in common with Farage. Thankfully they were not a strong political force then and would have kept Ireland in 19th century. The 3 major parties in Ireland (FF, FG and Sinn Fein) all trace their roots to 1905 Sinn Fein and that was a party filled with every type of narrow minded Catholic bigot you could find. One of them, Eamon Devalera, did untold damage to any type of social progress. Those so called patriots built a Catholic, male dominated, priest ridden state that is only now starting to recover. The type of state that threw illegitimate children into septic tanks, that sold them abroad, banished unwed mothers to laundries, threw poor children into Industrial Schools - in the effort to maintain their ideal Catholic Ireland, where contraception was banned, divorce banned, women's rights banned, gay marriage banned, where people lived in fear of the priest. I've not convinced any of the parties have left this ethos completely behind... though all have made some progress. I don't think we have a party that could lead a United Ireland. When the poll comes, I hope they have the good sense to step aside and let a representative group of people lead - and that should include straight, gay, men, women, trans, young people, travelers, Muslims, atheists, musicians, artists, and so on. Please not Mary Lou, Leo or Michéal.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 29, 2020, 08:38:31 PM
Are you basing this on your knowledge?
How many Nationalist in the north claim to be British? That sounds completely wrong...
If there is a 50/50 split in the north or close to, that would make 900,000 wanting to be staying in the union, out of an island population of 6 million is that a sizeable amount?
As for 'youse' abandoning the north, it wasn't you personally, so don't take it personally, the government did and that's history, has been like that for us for 100 years
I'm basing it on the bleedin' obvious
There is a realistic chance of the UK breaking up in the near future
If it does so, it will be down to the votes of around 2 million Scottish people out of a total population in Britain of over 64 million people
One in seven on the island is a very sizable amount, especially when they are geographically concentrated
I am not comparing Unionists to ISIS, but ISIS grew from around half a dozen people
Quote from: weareros on December 29, 2020, 08:49:16 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.
And what political party represents this benevolent nationalism?
I think a United Ireland would have 850,000 or so people who identify as British too and it's success would depend how empathetic nationalists were to them. It's hard to be convinced that this would be the case.
Irish nationalism every bit as narrow as the British and USA models, it just mutates into different forms. Sinn Fein basically campaigned against joining EU and every major EU treaty and up until Brexit had much in common with Farage. Thankfully they were not a strong political force then and would have kept Ireland in 19th century. The 3 major parties in Ireland (FF, FG and Sinn Fein) all trace their roots to 1905 Sinn Fein and that was a party filled with every type of narrow minded Catholic bigot you could find. One of them, Eamon Devalera, did untold damage to any type of social progress. Those so called patriots built a Catholic, male dominated, priest ridden state that is only now starting to recover. The type of state that threw illegitimate children into septic tanks, that sold them abroad, banished unwed mothers to laundries, threw poor children into Industrial Schools - in the effort to maintain their ideal Catholic Ireland, where contraception was banned, divorce banned, women's rights banned, gay marriage banned, where people lived in fear of the priest. I've not convinced any of the parties have left this ethos completely behind... though all have made some progress. I don't think we have a party that could lead a United Ireland. When the poll comes, I hope they have the good sense to step aside and let a representative group of people lead - and that should include straight, gay, men, women, trans, young people, travelers, Muslims, atheists, musicians, artists, and so on. Please not Mary Lou, Leo or Michéal.
I disagree with your view on Irish nationalism. What I described myself as is nationalism to me. It being xenophobic, Ireland for the Irish only. That's a load of shite and an idea that's needs to be opposed at every opportunity. I've no idea what party represents benevolent nationalism
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:40:46 PM
I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA.
That may be the case if you're talking about Ruth Dudley Edwards or the DUP
It is not the case for the majority of reasonable people on this island
Equally the case can be aimed at Sinn Fein, who rightly condemn British Army and Loyalist massacres, yet fail to condemn massacres on their own side
All this will go on as long people vote for these parties, it perpetuates tribalism, one sided condemnation and airbrushing of truth
This is about truth
The problem occurs when people see truth as "point scoring" or "bingo"
These are just buzzwords to excuse a mindless retreat into tribalism
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: weareros on December 29, 2020, 08:49:16 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:05:14 PM
I haven't seen you do it before. Hence my question. I've seen what you said about the DUP. Not complimentary.
I'm a nationalist and round of it. Not in the xenophobic sense. I'm Irish and proud to be. I love our country, our culture, our heritage and am proud of it. For me a UI consists of Irishmen and women and any one who wants to live regardless of their religion or political persuasion or their gender or sexuality. To me that's what nationalism is. Not your right wing ultra conservative Christian USA nationalist or your flag waving Union Jack tattooed British boneheads.
And what political party represents this benevolent nationalism?
I think a United Ireland would have 850,000 or so people who identify as British too and it's success would depend how empathetic nationalists were to them. It's hard to be convinced that this would be the case.
Irish nationalism every bit as narrow as the British and USA models, it just mutates into different forms. Sinn Fein basically campaigned against joining EU and every major EU treaty and up until Brexit had much in common with Farage. Thankfully they were not a strong political force then and would have kept Ireland in 19th century. The 3 major parties in Ireland (FF, FG and Sinn Fein) all trace their roots to 1905 Sinn Fein and that was a party filled with every type of narrow minded Catholic bigot you could find. One of them, Eamon Devalera, did untold damage to any type of social progress. Those so called patriots built a Catholic, male dominated, priest ridden state that is only now starting to recover. The type of state that threw illegitimate children into septic tanks, that sold them abroad, banished unwed mothers to laundries, threw poor children into Industrial Schools - in the effort to maintain their ideal Catholic Ireland, where contraception was banned, divorce banned, women's rights banned, gay marriage banned, where people lived in fear of the priest. I've not convinced any of the parties have left this ethos completely behind... though all have made some progress. I don't think we have a party that could lead a United Ireland. When the poll comes, I hope they have the good sense to step aside and let a representative group of people lead - and that should include straight, gay, men, women, trans, young people, travelers, Muslims, atheists, musicians, artists, and so on. Please not Mary Lou, Leo or Michéal.
I disagree with your view on Irish nationalism. What I described myself as is nationalism to me. It being xenophobic, Ireland for the Irish only. That's a load of shite and an idea that's needs to be opposed at every opportunity. I've no idea what party represents benevolent nationalism
The correct terminology for those who want a new Ireland - ie. that any future united Ireland should be a new country, shorn of divisive symbols and tolerant, secular and pluralist, is Republicanism
In Ireland we have it arseways
We call Nationalists "Republicans" and we call Republicans "Nationalists"
The SDLP are Republican, Sinn Fein are Nationalist
The number of New Irish on the Island are greater than that of the Unionist population.
Just to give a little perspective on their diminishing numbers.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:40:46 PM
I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA.
That may be the case if you're talking about Ruth Dudley Edwards or the DUP
It is not the case for the majority of reasonable people on this island
Equally the case can be aimed at Sinn Fein, who rightly condemn British Army and Loyalist massacres, yet fail to condemn massacres on their own side
All this will go on as long people vote for these parties, it perpetuates tribalism, one sided condemnation and airbrushing of truth
This is about truth
The problem occurs when people see truth as "point scoring" or "bingo"
These are just buzzwords to excuse a mindless retreat into tribalism
I was talking about this board. And, yeah it goes both ways.
Sid,
I appreciate your openness and honesty. As a northern nationalist myself, I have two choices in elections - SDLP or Sinn Fein. And sometimes only one, when the other steps aside. Therefore as an occasional voter of Sinn Fein in the north - am I tarred with the same brush?
PS. I am still trying to work out an appropriate title for this thread. Any ideas?
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 09:08:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 29, 2020, 08:40:46 PM
I've yet to see loyalists and brits condemned with as much by vigour by those who condemn the PIRA.
That may be the case if you're talking about Ruth Dudley Edwards or the DUP
It is not the case for the majority of reasonable people on this island
Equally the case can be aimed at Sinn Fein, who rightly condemn British Army and Loyalist massacres, yet fail to condemn massacres on their own side
All this will go on as long people vote for these parties, it perpetuates tribalism, one sided condemnation and airbrushing of truth
This is about truth
The problem occurs when people see truth as "point scoring" or "bingo"
These are just buzzwords to excuse a mindless retreat into tribalism
I was talking about this board. And, yeah it goes both ways.
I am unaware of anybody on this board who does not think Greysteel or Bloody Sunday or the Miami Showband massacre were nihilistic, evil abominations
So therefore the question of whether they were or not does not come up in conversation, because everybody agrees they were
If you were to go over to Arrse (it's a British Army discussion board), you would likely find different views
I have no doubt if I were to post there I would likely be branded as an IRA terrorist supporter, because I would run into implaccable Trump-like, pro-Union, pro-British Army, pro-Loyalist views
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
Quote from: Orior on December 29, 2020, 09:09:15 PM
Sid,
I appreciate your openness and honesty. As a northern nationalist myself, I have two choices in elections - SDLP or Sinn Fein. And sometimes only one, when the other steps aside. Therefore as an occasional voter of Sinn Fein in the north - am I tarred with the same brush?
PS. I am still trying to work out an appropriate title for this thread. Any ideas?
I myself would vote SF were I faced with a straight choice between Gildernew and Elliott or Finucane and Dodds
And then I would curse that choice
'Tis a pity because other than the SF connection I quite like Gildernew
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
I think the Republic would vote comfortably for it because Sinn Fein would likely have the good sense to step aside from the campaign, well, I think they probably would
The campaign would likely be led by Fine Gael people, people like Neale Richmond, the people who get called "West Brits"
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
Mea culpa
Polls have consistently shown a majority in favor of a UI amongst southern voters,granted its opinion polls but it's the best indicator of what we've got.
The books would have to be opened on the NI economy something the British are very reticent to do
How much are they paying every year to keep the North afloat
Is it £5bn,£10bn,£15bn per annum?
This is something that needs to be done well in advance not to frighten or put people off but in order for everyone to be fully aware of the facts and how the gap can be bridged and narrowed over time .
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 07:13:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Rotten state, really ? Go Angelo , obviously another shinner dim wit displaying exactly why SF will never be the most suitable party to lead our drive for UI
Absolutely a rotten state.
Imagine a state that covers up an atrocity like the Dublin-Monaghan bombing, the mass murder of its own citizens, who consistently turned a blind to the British state terrorism that was happening miles away from its own border on its own people. The same people who were ignoring these things were also happy to turn a blind eye to child abuse, were happy to flog its citizens so they could enrich people Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the widespread corruption FFG engaged in.
You seem to be quite ignorant to the workings of FFG, probably because your only concern is to bash SF with unsubstantiated, anecdotal stories.
I'm convinced of a UI as way forward but I'm equally as convinced that if SF lead the charge it will have less of a chance of happening, they may now well be the biggest nationalist party on the island but there are still far more nationalists on the island in its entirety who don't back them than do, plus they will never be trusted by unionism.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 07:13:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Rotten state, really ? Go Angelo , obviously another shinner dim wit displaying exactly why SF will never be the most suitable party to lead our drive for UI
Absolutely a rotten state.
Imagine a state that covers up an atrocity like the Dublin-Monaghan bombing, the mass murder of its own citizens, who consistently turned a blind to the British state terrorism that was happening miles away from its own border on its own people. The same people who were ignoring these things were also happy to turn a blind eye to child abuse, were happy to flog its citizens so they could enrich people Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the widespread corruption FFG engaged in.
You seem to be quite ignorant to the workings of FFG, probably because your only concern is to bash SF with unsubstantiated, anecdotal stories.
I'm well aware , I'm also well aware that very few countries are Lilly white and that insulting the people whose parents and grandparents built the country after independence is pretty well stupid
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 09:44:46 PM
I'm convinced of a UI as way forward but I'm equally as convinced that if SF lead the charge it will have less of a chance of happening, they may now well be the biggest nationalist party on the island but there are still far more nationalists on the island in its entirety who don't back them than do, plus they will never be trusted by unionism.
I honestly think that is a commonly held nationalist belief too. I have had the conversation with a number of people none of whom believe sf can deliver it. I believe that too. I am not sure who can but I hope the realisation drops soon and we have some other party comes in. I like several sdlp politicians however I think their leader is awful so imo no chance out of him.
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 09:47:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 07:13:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Rotten state, really ? Go Angelo , obviously another shinner dim wit displaying exactly why SF will never be the most suitable party to lead our drive for UI
Absolutely a rotten state.
Imagine a state that covers up an atrocity like the Dublin-Monaghan bombing, the mass murder of its own citizens, who consistently turned a blind to the British state terrorism that was happening miles away from its own border on its own people. The same people who were ignoring these things were also happy to turn a blind eye to child abuse, were happy to flog its citizens so they could enrich people Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the widespread corruption FFG engaged in.
You seem to be quite ignorant to the workings of FFG, probably because your only concern is to bash SF with unsubstantiated, anecdotal stories.
I'm well aware , I'm also well aware that very few countries are Lilly white and that insulting the people whose parents and grandparents built the country after independence is pretty well stupid
To be fair, to paraphrase you, the truth is the truth. It might make unpleasant reading for some people but it is what it is.
*Edit - I should say I don't particularly agree with Angelo's view. But it shows how facts can be used to paint a certain slant on reality.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 07:13:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Rotten state, really ? Go Angelo , obviously another shinner dim wit displaying exactly why SF will never be the most suitable party to lead our drive for UI
Absolutely a rotten state.
Imagine a state that covers up an atrocity like the Dublin-Monaghan bombing, the mass murder of its own citizens, who consistently turned a blind to the British state terrorism that was happening miles away from its own border on its own people. The same people who were ignoring these things were also happy to turn a blind eye to child abuse, were happy to flog its citizens so they could enrich people Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the widespread corruption FFG engaged in.
You seem to be quite ignorant to the workings of FFG, probably because your only concern is to bash SF with unsubstantiated, anecdotal stories.
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
Perhaps a new Ireland will allow you to cleanse some of that history and make a new start.
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 09:43:25 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 29, 2020, 07:13:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
Rotten state, really ? Go Angelo , obviously another shinner dim wit displaying exactly why SF will never be the most suitable party to lead our drive for UI
Absolutely a rotten state.
Imagine a state that covers up an atrocity like the Dublin-Monaghan bombing, the mass murder of its own citizens, who consistently turned a blind to the British state terrorism that was happening miles away from its own border on its own people. The same people who were ignoring these things were also happy to turn a blind eye to child abuse, were happy to flog its citizens so they could enrich people Larry Goodman, Denis O'Brien and the widespread corruption FFG engaged in.
You seem to be quite ignorant to the workings of FFG, probably because your only concern is to bash SF with unsubstantiated, anecdotal stories.
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
Angelo- chief strategist for SF, worrying thing is that's not even far from the truth
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:57:51 PM
It's weird that you're so pro-PIRA and yet are so anti-old-IRA
Speaking of the Old IRA, would you describe their campaign as a "civilian/sectarian murder campaign", Sid?
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 29, 2020, 10:18:15 PM
Perhaps a new Ireland will allow you to cleanse some of that history and make a new start.
This is the thing. Say 10 or 20 years from now. That will be 35-45 years since the end of the troubles. The majority of those voters in the North will thankfully have no idea of the savagery that went on. They will make the call.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 09:24:48 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
I think the Republic would vote comfortably for it because Sinn Fein would likely have the good sense to step aside from the campaign, well, I think they probably would
The campaign would likely be led by Fine Gael people, people like Neale Richmond, the people who get called "West Brits"
Nah, your the main west brit Sid. I've much much more respect for Northern unionists who have a genuine British heritage than a weasel like you.
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
Sadly it's hiw vast vast amount of northern republicans view the south. They are blind to their own strategic stupidity
Quote from: Itchy on December 29, 2020, 11:42:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 09:24:48 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
I think the Republic would vote comfortably for it because Sinn Fein would likely have the good sense to step aside from the campaign, well, I think they probably would
The campaign would likely be led by Fine Gael people, people like Neale Richmond, the people who get called "West Brits"
Nah, your the main west brit Sid. I've much much more respect for Northern unionists who have a genuine British heritage than a weasel like you.
"West Brit", "weasel", thanks for the abuse as always, well argued, articulate as always
Presume you'll be voting against a united Ireland when the time comes because you'll have to share it with a lot of people whose opinions you don't like but are totally unable to argue against
That could be a real problem for you, although I suspect it could be a bigger problem for those on the wrong side of your grunting
To be honest one would nearly be tempted to also vote against a united Ireland after reading bigoted moronic blatherings like yours - I can certainly imagine such gammonology being a real turn off for a lot of people
It'd be absolutely hilarious if the north voted for unification but the south didn't - just to see the look on your face
Luckily for you I don't vote on that basis
In the words of Kevin Bridges, you're the sort of person who if one had the misfortune to come across them in the pub, the only reasonable reaction would be to stand up, pat them on the back and say "have a good night, mate"
Would be absolutely hilarious... ?
But in same breath wouldn't vote, hard to believe, but anyways...
There was a time financially I'd have suffered had a UI been granted, that wouldn't have pulled me from voting for a UI
My problem is, the South has form. Voting on keeping the status quo wouldn't surprise me at all, nothing on here changes my view on that unfortunately.
When crunch comes crunch I'd hope us on the north wouldn't do a Scotland, but the devil is in the detail.
Anyways it won't happen in my life time
Quote from: grounded on December 29, 2020, 11:37:08 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on December 29, 2020, 10:18:15 PM
Perhaps a new Ireland will allow you to cleanse some of that history and make a new start.
This is the thing. Say 10 or 20 years from now. That will be 35-45 years since the end of the troubles. The majority of those voters in the North will thankfully have no idea of the savagery that went on. They will make the call.
That's not necessarily a good thing, it might be a good thing if the threat of violence was non-existent in the future - as is the case in the south - but that's not the case as regards the north
There is a healthy amount of real history people should know in order that they don't repeat it
Conversely, all these commemorations are bad news, they allow history to be hijacked for cynical political and rabble rousing purposes, if Covid did one good thing it made most people forget about commemorations
Gonna be some craic in the latter part of this century when Loyalists demand the Shankill Butchers be commemorated officially as equal victims of the Troubles along with those they slaughtered
Murphy in his own streets is revered and hated in equal measures. Given up by his own will give you a good idea.
As for commemorations was there not one lately in the south that brought about some gurning?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 12:29:11 AM
Would be absolutely hilarious... ?
Ah it would be, now, a bit like how I was up for Galway hurlers to beat Tipp in the semi-final a few years back - I live in Galway, but at the same I would have found it very funny if Tipp had won for the wind up value
A vote for a united Ireland isn't really something that would have an inherent effect on anybody's quality of life, and neither would the lack of it prevent anybody being Irish
I'd be voting for unification if and when the time came but would respect the democratic vote whichever way it went
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 12:38:49 AM
Murphy in his own streets is revered and hated in equal measures. Given up by his own will give you a good idea.
As for commemorations was there not one lately in the south that brought about some gurning?
There was indeed, or was talk about one, which is why I said if Covid did one good thing it at least stopped people talking absolute shite about it
Some things that happened before we were all alive are probably best left in the past - especially when they are extremely controversial and can only cause needless rabble rousing division
Some anniversaries bring up unavoidable confrontation and controversy though
It's why I say this is a generational thing or two maybe before that hurt is gone..
I've always asked for a truth commission for the north, a period of opening and closing wounds, allowing those that are still grieving and angry about lost relatives/loved ones.
Wiping the slate clean, starting over. The hurt shown by both sides needs to be acknowledged and moved on.
If Sid you'd tone down your attitude I'd accept some of your views, but they are too extreme, and for someone who beliefs come across as left of centre you make a big hole for yourself and paint a bad picture for us Nordies of how the general south view the north.
As for SF, they'll change, they have to and have changed since the early 80's, whether they will be the party (I doubt it) that'll lead a UI is questionable, as unionist won't go for it.
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
You sure about that?
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
Anybody that calls themselves Irish, but votes against reunification is an embarrassment as a person, and an embarrassment to their country.
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
He didn't say the ROI was not your state though.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:57 AM
Quote from: Itchy on December 29, 2020, 11:42:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 09:24:48 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 09:13:58 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on December 29, 2020, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:42:37 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM
Ah, so you do want oppression of women!
You didn't answer about the LGBTQ+ community
Bland PR-like statements don't cut it, especially when accompanied by US evangelical style craziness
Nope, I respect how valuable human life is unlike you.
That would obviously explain your support for the PIRA ;D
Clearly as they were fighting a government that routinely opened fire on unarmed civilians because they were taking to the streets to demand their civil rights.
The free state establishment has much blood on its hands when it comes to the troubles.
Those 644 civilians the PIRA killed were key members of that government of course
The "elite", or something
To cite dead civilians on the streets of Derry as a legitimate justification for 644 other dead civilians is Orwellian
You're pontificating about civilians being killed when you're the only poster on here who defended the IRA that won your rotten state its independence going around murdering civilians.
You are at odds with yourself here, as I predicted, you have routinely shown yourself to be morally bankrupt once again.
So the Republic of Ireland is in your words a "Rotten state"?
Can I take it then you won't want to be a part of a United Ireland then?
You've more in common in denigrating the Republic of Ireland with Jim Alister than you do with me.
A UI doesn't = ROI + NI. I dont want NI to be merged into ROI structures, I want a New Ireland.
You described us in the south as being part of a "rotten state"
Is insulting us part of the grand plan to make us vote for a United ireland after the unity vote is won in the North?
I presumed we were all on the same side,maybe we ain't
1. No, that was Angelo, I was jumping on a point just.
2. I don't ever expect to see a UI. In the confines of a polling booth I wouldn't be convinced that ROI voters would vote for it, I also think there's a huge number of 'nationalists' in NI who would do the same tbh - nevermind the Unionist population.
3. If Scotland goes the chances improve, but then the New Ireland conversation has to be had. I dont see the ROI being comfortable giving up it's structure to accommodate the New Ireland.
I think the Republic would vote comfortably for it because Sinn Fein would likely have the good sense to step aside from the campaign, well, I think they probably would
The campaign would likely be led by Fine Gael people, people like Neale Richmond, the people who get called "West Brits"
Nah, your the main west brit Sid. I've much much more respect for Northern unionists who have a genuine British heritage than a weasel like you.
"West Brit", "weasel", thanks for the abuse as always, well argued, articulate as always
Presume you'll be voting against a united Ireland when the time comes because you'll have to share it with a lot of people whose opinions you don't like but are totally unable to argue against
That could be a real problem for you, although I suspect it could be a bigger problem for those on the wrong side of your grunting
To be honest one would nearly be tempted to also vote against a united Ireland after reading bigoted moronic blatherings like yours - I can certainly imagine such gammonology being a real turn off for a lot of people
It'd be absolutely hilarious if the north voted for unification but the south didn't - just to see the look on your face
Luckily for you I don't vote on that basis
In the words of Kevin Bridges, you're the sort of person who if one had the misfortune to come across them in the pub, the only reasonable reaction would be to stand up, pat them on the back and say "have a good night, mate"
You know he is from the south, right?
Quote from: Snapchap on December 29, 2020, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 29, 2020, 06:57:51 PM
It's weird that you're so pro-PIRA and yet are so anti-old-IRA
Speaking of the Old IRA, would you describe their campaign as a "civilian/sectarian murder campaign", Sid?
In your own time there, Sid.
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
That's some sweeping statement!!!
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 02:38:52 AM
Anybody that calls themselves Irish, but votes against reunification is an embarrassment as a person, and an embarrassment to their country.
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Rabble rousing shite
What you are doing is - you are telling people that nationalism should override all other concerns that anybody might have
Are you saying anybody in Scotland who voted against Scottish independence is not Scottish?
Are you saying the Welsh are not Welsh?
Are you saying the Serbs in Bosnia are not Serb?
What if you consider yourself British (or United Kingdomish)
and Irish?
Are you saying that if there was a vote for a united Ireland, that any person in the North who considered themselves British would then have a duty to reject this vote?
What if somebody who considered themselves British decided to vote for a united Ireland based on economic interests, or any other interests?
Would they then be a "traitor to their people"?
Would Sinn Fein be traitors if they took their seats in Westminster?
Are Ian Marshall and Gordon Wilson traitors to "their people" because they took seats in the Irish Seanad?
There is no inherent state of nature in which there is a political all-island state called Ireland, or any manufactured political entity for that matter
There is no inherent state of nature where there is an unchanging nation state called Germany, with unchanging borders
Or France, or Spain, or Catalonia, or the Basque Country, or the United Kingdom, or the United States of America
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Every nation state is "bastardised"
To say otherwise is to say that the concept of the nation state is something natural
But it isn't, it's a man made construct, it's artificial
All nation states and political entities are artificial
County Mayo is artificial, Northern Ireland is artificial, the Republic of Ireland is artificial, the United Kingdom is artificial, and so would any form of united Ireland be
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 01:18:46 AM
It's why I say this is a generational thing or two maybe before that hurt is gone..
I've always asked for a truth commission for the north, a period of opening and closing wounds, allowing those that are still grieving and angry about lost relatives/loved ones.
Wiping the slate clean, starting over. The hurt shown by both sides needs to be acknowledged and moved on.
If Sid you'd tone down your attitude I'd accept some of your views, but they are too extreme, and for someone who beliefs come across as left of centre you make a big hole for yourself and paint a bad picture for us Nordies of how the general south view the north.
As for SF, they'll change, they have to and have changed since the early 80's, whether they will be the party (I doubt it) that'll lead a UI is questionable, as unionist won't go for it.
What's extreme about my views?
Within my group I'd be viewed as someone who'd think about it first before voting, personally that's not the case. I'd prefer to involve both sides of things before making a decision.
The thing though about having the opportunity to vote to be part of something that I feel I'm already but this would copper fasten it, is too much to waste.
And if that ballot came about, I doubt there would be any that could vote to stay in the union..
Maybe some personal reasons, money being the main one, the percentage of that person would be minimal.
Ten years might be right time, going early could set it back
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
There's hardly a million any more Fear?
Balladmaker your point about non "bastardused State" needs to be addressed to the Angelos of the 6 Counties as well as Sid.
What if Brexit turned out to be a roaring success? I don't think it will, just putting out the hypothetical
I think you'd see support for a united Ireland go down
The assumption that support for a united Ireland will go up is based on the effective economic failure of Northern Ireland and indeed the United Kingdom
It's also sort of based on Scotland going independent first - that an integral part of the UK will decide to break the link first, so effectively there will be no UK to remain part of
But what if the SNP lost another independence referendum?
What if a progressive Labour government got in in Britain, the Brexiteers became a busted flush, and the UK rejoining the EU started to look likely, or actually happened
What then
Economic factors are and will definitely continue to be very important
It's a bit shit when one of the main parties in power in NI has as its raison d'etre the notion that the political entity in which it exists is a failed state and should remain that way - and that its overriding nationalist political goal depends on that failure
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 11:51:54 AM
There's hardly a million any more Fear?
Balladmaker your point about non "bastardused State" needs to be addressed to the Angelos of the 6 Counties as well as Sid.
1.8 million in NI, id say very least 900k
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
The vast majority of people on the island do not recognise a political united Ireland
They recognise that the Republic and the North are separate and that this will continue until such time as both vote to change that situation
So under your criteria, the 26 county Republic is not bastardised, and neither is the North
In reality though all states are bastardised because they are arbitrary lines drawn on a map
Germany is a bastardised creation, so is Poland, what used to be part of Germany is now Poland
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
Some of them wouldn't go down without a fight I suspect though and wouldn't exactly be celebrating :(
Brexit looks in no way favourable- particularly for the north.
Political structures collapse with economic systems.
100 years ago the Austrohungarian empire collapsed and the British Empire lost control of the 26 counties. We are due a similar moment as neoliberalism goes tits up.
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Free State ?
Rotten State?
Now Bastardized state?
And yet you keep insulting us from the south
You are more partionist than anyone here pal
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
Most definitely it is looking bleak for the union and unionists know that , there would need to be big protection for unionism within any new state, there will be undoubtedly a significant minority within unionism who won't go down without a violent fight.
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
The EU grants make it significantly more sustainable. Losing these will not be helpful at all.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector
NI is inherently unsustainable. Politically, economically, socially. Sid you don't actually think NI is a successfully functioning entity, do you?
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Free State ?
Rotten State?
Now Bastardized state?
And yet you keep insulting us from the south
You are more partionist than anyone here pal
Partition is reality unfortunately and it created two rotten states, one created along sectarian lines to keep one side of the community down, the other with a motive to create an elite ruling class who purged all assets and resources to enrich themselves and aligned private interests. The Free State's record on the Troubles and the blind eye it turned to the atrocities carried out by the British state in the O6 is abhorrent and it should be a great cause of shame for any citizen from the Free State with how they abandoned their northern brethern.
That seems to be an uncomfortable truth for guys like you, Ross and Sid and all the airbrushing in the world can't turn back the hands of time.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
- Some unionists will welcome a united Ireland.
- Some unionists will re-locate to the motherland.
- Some unionists will fight.
- Some unionists are currently indifferent to a united Ireland.
What are the southern political parties doing to win over the latter group?
To those using the term "rotten state"
Are you aware that in the 1920's liberal unionists tagged "rotten protestants"?
Quote from: seafoid on December 30, 2020, 12:11:50 PM
Political structures collapse with economic systems.
100 years ago the Austrohungarian empire collapsed and the British Empire lost control of the 26 counties. We are due a similar moment as neoliberalism goes tits up.
Sure the EU is a grand Neoliberal experiment?
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Free State ?
Rotten State?
Now Bastardized state?
And yet you keep insulting us from the south
You are more partionist than anyone here pal
Partition is reality unfortunately and it created two rotten states, one created along sectarian lines to keep one side of the community down, the other with a motive to create an elite ruling class who purged all assets and resources to enrich themselves and aligned private interests. The Free State's record on the Troubles and the blind eye it turned to the atrocities carried out in the O6 is abhorrent and it should be a great cause of shame for any citizen from the Free State with how they abandoned their northern brethern.
That seems to be an uncomfortable truth for guys like you, Ross and Sid and all the airbrushing in the world can't turn back the hands of time.
Keep going son
You are doing a great job of convincing me not to vote for a United Ireland
It's fairy obvious you don't want one either
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Free State ?
Rotten State?
Now Bastardized state?
And yet you keep insulting us from the south
You are more partionist than anyone here pal
Partition is reality unfortunately and it created two rotten states, one created along sectarian lines to keep one side of the community down, the other with a motive to create an elite ruling class who purged all assets and resources to enrich themselves and aligned private interests. The Free State's record on the Troubles and the blind eye it turned to the atrocities carried out in the O6 is abhorrent and it should be a great cause of shame for any citizen from the Free State with how they abandoned their northern brethern.
That seems to be an uncomfortable truth for guys like you, Ross and Sid and all the airbrushing in the world can't turn back the hands of time.
Keep going son
You are doing a great job of convincing me not to vote for a United Ireland
It's fairy obvious you don't want one either
FFS - I'd say lads like you and the others mentioned would have no intention of voting for a re-united Ireland.
This fake Trumpism of "you're doing a great job of convincing me NOT to..." FFS.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 01:07:39 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Free State ?
Rotten State?
Now Bastardized state?
And yet you keep insulting us from the south
You are more partionist than anyone here pal
Partition is reality unfortunately and it created two rotten states, one created along sectarian lines to keep one side of the community down, the other with a motive to create an elite ruling class who purged all assets and resources to enrich themselves and aligned private interests. The Free State's record on the Troubles and the blind eye it turned to the atrocities carried out in the O6 is abhorrent and it should be a great cause of shame for any citizen from the Free State with how they abandoned their northern brethern.
That seems to be an uncomfortable truth for guys like you, Ross and Sid and all the airbrushing in the world can't turn back the hands of time.
Keep going son
You are doing a great job of convincing me not to vote for a United Ireland
It's fairy obvious you don't want one either
FFS - I'd say lads like you and the others mentioned would have no intention of voting for a re-united Ireland.
This fake Trumpism of "you're doing a great job of convincing me NOT to..." FFS.
I don't have to show my Republican credentials to you or anyone else
Nordies whinging about being left behind by the big bad south.
It's a pity we couldn't get men up to ye in 1919/20 to drive the Brits out seeing as ye weren't men enough to do it yereselves
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
I don't have to show my Republican credentials to you or anyone else
Nordies whinging about being left behind by the big bad south.
It's a pity we couldn't get men up to ye in 1919/20 to drive the Brits out seeing as ye weren't men enough to do it yereselves
The Free Stater shows his true colours.
Did you march with O'Duffy?
If it all comes down to Economics and the 6 Cos basket case....
Will Northern nationalists vote for a UI where they will have to pay a load of extra taxes to make up for the alleged £10,000,000,000 black hole?
It would cost every man woman and child c£5k extra per annum.
How many people in the 26 would be prepared to pay €2,200 extra to fund the feckless ones?
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 01:15:37 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 01:07:39 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:59:47 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 12:54:01 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:12:31 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 30, 2020, 12:05:21 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM
Quote from: clonadmad on December 29, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
You won't be wanting a United Ireland with us in the south then?
Fair enough
You see this is where the Free Staters need a reality check. It's not your state.
It's a new Ireland to replace the two rotten states that partition brought about.
You really hate the south don't you,
calling us all free staters
Telling us the Republic of Ireland is not our state
If your indiicative of what even a small percentage of northern "nationalism" feels about the south
We might as well never have even a discussion about a United Ireland
the state is a republic of Ireland, a bastardized one obviously but clearly not the Republic
thankfully the Irish public have more sense than this board who are overwhelmingly partitionist
thinking about money when it comes to national sovereignty ::)
Free State ?
Rotten State?
Now Bastardized state?
And yet you keep insulting us from the south
You are more partionist than anyone here pal
Partition is reality unfortunately and it created two rotten states, one created along sectarian lines to keep one side of the community down, the other with a motive to create an elite ruling class who purged all assets and resources to enrich themselves and aligned private interests. The Free State's record on the Troubles and the blind eye it turned to the atrocities carried out in the O6 is abhorrent and it should be a great cause of shame for any citizen from the Free State with how they abandoned their northern brethern.
That seems to be an uncomfortable truth for guys like you, Ross and Sid and all the airbrushing in the world can't turn back the hands of time.
Keep going son
You are doing a great job of convincing me not to vote for a United Ireland
It's fairy obvious you don't want one either
FFS - I'd say lads like you and the others mentioned would have no intention of voting for a re-united Ireland.
This fake Trumpism of "you're doing a great job of convincing me NOT to..." FFS.
I don't have to show my Republican credentials to you or anyone else
Nordies whinging about being left behind by the big bad south.
It's a pity we couldn't get men up to ye in 1919/20 to drive the Brits out seeing as ye weren't men enough to do it yereselves
FFS..my daddy is bigger than your daddy.
Embarrassing post. Very clearly you'll not be voting for a re-united Ireland.
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector
Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor
That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable
The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind
Governance structures are decisions made by people
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector
Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor
That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable
The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind
Governance structures are decisions made by people
Agreed.
Quote from: general_lee on December 30, 2020, 12:47:11 PM
NI is inherently unsustainable. Politically, economically, socially. Sid you don't actually think NI is a successfully functioning entity, do you?
It's not particularly successful
It's better than it was
The Troubles had a lot to do with it, as well as poor governance
Socially, little would change in the north in a united Ireland, certainly not in the near to medium term
Politically and economically I'd expect it would improve a bit, but there's nothing inherent in the UK political system that would prevent an improvement of governance there - just attitudes to governance
Similar attitudes in London prevent the north of England and South Wales and Scotland flourishing
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:54:17 PM
- Some unionists will welcome a united Ireland.
- Some unionists will re-locate to the motherland.
- Some unionists will fight.
- Some unionists are currently indifferent to a united Ireland.
What are the southern political parties doing to win over the latter group?
I can't see a Sinn Fein led government in the Republic be a help to the prospects of a united Ireland, it would scare a lot of moderate Unionists away from the idea
This is the paradox, those most devoted to the idea of a united Ireland are those most likely to scupper the prospect
If you wanted to persuade moderate Unionists or on the fencers of the merits of a united Ireland, the reality is you would need the most non-threatening voices, those seen as anti-nationalist or commonly denigrated as "West Brits" to lead the argument
If you had David Cullinane and Brian Stanley leading the argument down here, the northern vote would be a dead duck
So, let's say for the laugh the twin referendums were in six months' time
You'd get Neale Richmond, Mairead McGuinness, Heather Humphreys and John Bruton to lead the Yes campaign down here
You'd get civil society voices like Bono, Lord Mountcharles and David Norris
You might get prominent English people in Ireland like Tracy Piggott or people originally from the PUL community down here, maybe George Hamilton, maybe a few of the rugby team, Tommy Bowe etc., Brian O'Driscoll has already been up at an Orange march, he got dog's abuse for it down here from the Shinner supporters but these are the sort of micro-engagements you need
You'd involve the Church of Ireland/Protestant community down here in an outsize way, especially the Archbishop of Dublin
Up north you'd get the SDLP to play a prominent role and put Claire Hanna front and centre, you'd reach out to moderate Unionists like Sylvia Hermon and Mike Nesbitt, you'd reach out to all Unionists in the most respectful way even if you weren't going to get them to vote for you
Jarlath Burns is a sensible enough and persuasive voice, he'd surely be involved
EU and US voices would help to make the economic case
Everything would be focussed on creating the most constructive, pragmatic and economically sound case possible and nationalist rabble rousing would need to be told to get lost
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector
Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor
That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable
The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind
How could you have good governance in a state that was deliberately set up, so as one religious grouping had an inheritant superiority over the other in terms of employment, housing, education, wealth etc ( Sid I'm talking about the North here btw, there are definite questions to be answered as to how protestants were treated on the free state).
As to the fact that Governance structures are decisions made by people.
Well i suppose it certainly would have helped to have a have a vote back in the day.
The Republic had 90%+ Catholic Irish majority(im sorry to be so blunt/crude as i hate to take religion into things but thems the facts).
I wouldnt say they did a fantastic job with governance (with a whole generation forced to emigrate and the financial collapse and IMF bailout more recently) and the role the Catholic church played in the state. But thats an entirely different argument.
But they did a dam site better than this shit hole. I will say it again how could you get good governance in an apartheid state?
Northern Ireland was and is a failed state. There is no future in it. There will more than likely be a UI, demographics will decide it. You know it as well as I. But its up to us as a people to convince or at least make it more palatable for a sizeable chunk of the Unionist population to accept that.
Quote from: grounded on December 30, 2020, 02:08:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 01:29:27 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 12:40:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 12:19:32 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 30, 2020, 12:07:07 PM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 30, 2020, 11:45:49 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 11:40:31 AM
Economic and infrastructure unification on the island will come before any official unification via a border poll. In case some have not noticed, both economic and infrastructure alignment, north and south, are well under way. Brexit will accelerate it further.
So when it comes to a vote on re-unification, it should be a no-brainer for the vast majority of people on the island.
Sid, any state where the vast majority of its citizens recognise it, where the international community recognises it, is not a 'bastardised' state.
I agree with most of this but there is a danger of underestimating 1 million Unionists
Many of those unionists have already copped on that the six county statelet is unsustainable - time and time again they are sold out by the british. English nationalists don't want to waste their money in Europe, nor do they want to see it continue wasted on the sic counties.
You would be surprised how many have already got their Irish passports. When re-unification is achieved, I look forward to being able to celebrate all cultures in our land, including Orangism.
There's nothing inherently unsustainable about the North
It has poor governance which is a situation which there is no automatic predestination about
In the same way we have rabble rousing rhetoric here about duty to fellow Irish people, ie. appeals to nationalism rooted in the idea of there being an inherent connection between people and soil, one should not think that Unionists will not think that way too
NI is a much poorer economy than ROI, we have virtually nothing outside public sector
Yes but the Republic itself used to be dirt poor
That did not mean it was inherently unsustainable
The Republic has had better governance for the last 60 years plus, which enabled better economic development - this is why it is now richer than the North and why the North has lagged behind
How could you have good governance in a state that was deliberately set up, so as one religious grouping had an inheritant superiority over the other in terms of employment, housing, education, wealth etc ( Sid I'm talking about the North here btw, there are definite questions to be answered as to how protestants were treated on the free state).
As to the fact that Governance structures are decisions made by people.
Well i suppose it certainly would have helped to have a have a vote back in the day.
The Republic had 90%+ Catholic Irish majority(im sorry to be so blunt/crude as i hate to take religion into things but thems the facts).
I wouldnt say they did a fantastic job with governance (with a whole generation forced to emigrate and the financial collapse and IMF bailout more recently) and the role the Catholic church played in the state. But thats an entirely different argument.
But they did a dam site better than this shit hole. I will say it again how could you get good governance in an apartheid state?
Northern Ireland was and is a failed state. There is no future in it. There will more than likely be a UI, demographics will decide it. You know it as well as I. But its up to us as a people to convince or at least make it more palatable for a sizeable chunk of the Unionist population to accept that.
Sectarian and irredentist politics is the problem, it breeds suspicion and when you have terminal suspicion, you have a failed state
Part of the problem is that one of SF's core principles is that NI can only ever be a failed state - so they have a vested interest that it will always fail - it's pretty disastrous for governance that one of the ruling parties has an interest that the state is a failure, isn't it, they don't take their seats in Westminster therefore no representation
Then the other main ruling party are flat earther culture warriors whose greatest ambition is to live to see somebody else invent a time machine so they can go back and live in 1690
So the first thing you do is get rid of SF and the DUP and only the voters can do that
Party politics which runs along the lines it does in the north is a disaster - but clearly a UUP-SDLP coalition would be better than SF-DUP, like don't tell me NI would not have been better served with Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood at the helm rather than Punch and Judy
I've often wondered what you do if you're a left-wing Unionist, there's nobody to vote for, maybe the Green Party, do People Before Profit up there have any Protestant candidates
Plenty of other places have had sectarian or ethnic strife and overcome it, Liverpool used to be a deeply sectarian city but now has a fierce sense of collective identity and sectarianism is basically non-existent, you make a collective decision as a people that everybody has a vested interest in making society work rather than it failing
NI has only ever been imagined as a transient thing - it's a bit like the way transient renters have no vested interest in taking care of a property - maybe if it went independent it would have a vested interest in being a success rather than a failure
The other thing i meant to add is, allowing any opinion by another poster on here to affect/influence a sincere position you have on an important/fundamental
Belief is absolutely bollix no matter how much they appear to wind you up.
I think sometimes we give ourselves too much importance on here. As if a few anonymous posters on a Gaa website represent the opinions/position of an entire swathe of north and south....we dont.
Its like arguing with your man down in your local who never agrees with anyone(oh Christ i'd love a few pints down in the fuckin pub! )
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
I wonder what's Angelo's solution to the c45% of the 6 Co population that are Unionist/British?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 01:26:07 PM
If it all comes down to Economics and the 6 Cos basket case....
Will Northern nationalists vote for a UI where they will have to pay a load of extra taxes to make up for the alleged £10,000,000,000 black hole?
It would cost every man woman and child c£5k extra per annum.
How many people in the 26 would be prepared to pay €2,200 extra to fund the feckless ones?
Unlike the farce that was the Brexit referendum, people would have to know what they are voting for, possibly some one (a bunch of lawyers etc) would have to negotiate a package deal on behalf of Unionist interests without Unionists involving themselves directly in talks. On the finance side, the EU would have to be heavily involved and the England/Wales government would have to pick up much of the subvention tab for some years, not very different to the loan transfer of the ailing Shane Duffy to Celtic, where Brighton still pay 50% of Shane's salary.
No doubt quite a number of nordie nationalists will be reassured that they will be able to hold onto to the British nationality part of their dual nationality, that seems to be an important issue for them.
What if it came to pass that the majority of nordies voted yes to an AI but the majority in the 26 voted no thanks ?
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
I trust you're referring to those Northern "nationalists" who aren't prepared to pay their way in a future All Ireland State?
Around £5k per person per annum.
Anither crowd who sold their souls for English gold.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
I trust you're referring to those Northern "nationalists" who aren't prepared to pay their way in a future All Ireland State?
Around £5k per person per annum.
Anither crowd who sold their souls for English gold.
No. More specifically the Southern "nationalists" who use that excuse, but it applies to 6 county people as well.
Not sure where you're pulling 5k from either.
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
+1
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
I trust you're referring to those Northern "nationalists" who aren't prepared to pay their way in a future All Ireland State?
Around £5k per person per annum.
Anither crowd who sold their souls for English gold.
I know it's just after 5pm but Christ the night that's the most drunken post I've seen yet!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty. The likes of the DUP and UUP are a worse form of sectarianism that the PUP.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP - there are no moderate factions really. Alliance are a fringe party of middle class liberals.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
So what was the good friday agreement?
When faced with the demographics and abandonment by the British government they will have to compromise.
In any event it wont be the extremes on either side, it will be the middle ground that will decide.
Say 15 years from now, Scotland has left the union, applied for and joined the EU snd is doing quite well.
Not having the same EU funding and wirh the South East England being the cenrte of political and financial power in the uk, NI may become an even bigger economic backwater than it is now. Huge disparities in standard of living between north and south. Even greater emigration of young Unionists to England.
Is it beyond the realms of imagination that a section of the unionist population may look favourably on a united Ireland?
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Arrogance and entitlement from SF
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
PUP haven't a voice ffs, they haven't the intellect nor the money to have a sustainable assault on working class politics! Can you imagine the likes of a Jo Bunting being a leader?
There's not too many political parties that haven't blood on their hands, alliance, greens, PBP, and SDLP bring blood free (though I'll hold judgement on one SDLP member during one period)
Would you rather Jo Bunting in? If you do, then in all honesty you need your head looked at.
Working class Protestants in Belfast would never have voted DUP, in fact David Irvine expressed his disgust at the DUP and their views.
There is a void there willing to be filled with a sensible political party in working class unionist areas, but while people will listen to the likes of that wee twat Bryson they will continue to divide.
Only if a middle green and orange party has power, we won't get everyone or a majority onboard!
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty. The likes of the DUP and UUP are a worse form of sectarianism that the PUP.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP - there are no moderate factions really. Alliance are a fringe party of middle class liberals.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
Do you ever read back the nonsense you post?
Quote from: grounded on December 30, 2020, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
So what was the good friday agreement?
When faced with the demographics and abandonment by the British government they will have to compromise.
In any event it wont be the extremes on either side, it will be the middle ground that will decide.
Say 15 years from now, Scotland has left the union, applied for and joined the EU snd is doing quite well.
Not having the same EU funding and wirh the South East England being the cenrte of political and financial power in the uk, NI may become an even bigger economic backwater than it is now. Huge disparities in standard of living between north and south. Even greater emigration of young Unionists to England.
Is it beyond the realms of imagination that a section of the unionist population may look favourably on a united Ireland?
Paisley, McGuiness, Hume were able to put their differences aside and come together. Even Paisley came around in the end.
Unfortunately we now have Michelle O'Neill and Arlene Foster as the main leaders now and neither inspire confidence. They struggle to agree on anything or make any decisions at the moment let alone a major issue such as a united Ireland
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
PUP haven't a voice ffs, they haven't the intellect nor the money to have a sustainable assault on working class politics! Can you imagine the likes of a Jo Bunting being a leader?
There's not too many political parties that haven't blood on their hands, alliance, greens, PBP, and SDLP bring blood free (though I'll hold judgement on one SDLP member during one period)
Would you rather Jo Bunting in? If you do, then in all honesty you need your head looked at.
Working class Protestants in Belfast would never have voted DUP, in fact David Irvine expressed his disgust at the DUP and their views.
There is a void there willing to be filled with a sensible political party in working class unionist areas, but while people will listen to the likes of that wee twat Bryson they will continue to divide.
Only if a middle green and orange party has power, we won't get everyone or a majority onboard!
If working class Protestants don't vote for DUP in the Shankhill and DUP then why are their elected representatives DUP MLAs?
Loyalism/unionism doesn't have the intelligence, it doesn't need resources. People vote on the basis of their ideologies. The PUP run candidates in these constituencies and they don't get returned because working class loyalists vote for the DUP.
It's simply because loyalism is a culture of hate and anyone who lives in the O6 understands that. Loyalism is all all about protestant ascendancy, working class loyalists would rather live in squalor than have their situation advanced if it also meant that of the catholic community advancing its position.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
PUP haven't a voice ffs, they haven't the intellect nor the money to have a sustainable assault on working class politics! Can you imagine the likes of a Jo Bunting being a leader?
Sophie Long is a very interesting voice and the sort of person Loyalism/Unionism needs much more of but she was effectively forced out of the PUP
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 05:02:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
I trust you're referring to those Northern "nationalists" who aren't prepared to pay their way in a future All Ireland State?
Around £5k per person per annum.
Anither crowd who sold their souls for English gold.
No. More specifically the Southern "nationalists" who use that excuse, but it applies to 6 county people as well.
Not sure where you're pulling 5k from either.
Already explained it but anyway
£10,000,000,000 shortfall between public income and expenditure. 2,000,000 population (give or take easier to divide 2 into 10k).
People in the 26 ('ignorant Free Staters" "bastard state" etc etc) being asked to pay €2,200 each to fund that shortfall....No!!
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 05:02:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
I trust you're referring to those Northern "nationalists" who aren't prepared to pay their way in a future All Ireland State?
Around £5k per person per annum.
Anither crowd who sold their souls for English gold.
No. More specifically the Southern "nationalists" who use that excuse, but it applies to 6 county people as well.
Not sure where you're pulling 5k from either.
Already explained it but anyway
£10,000,000,000 shortfall between public income and expenditure. 2,000,000 population (give or take easier to divide 2 into 10k).
People in the 26 ('ignorant Free Staters" "bastard state" etc etc) being asked to pay €2,200 each to fund that shortfall....No!!
Can you provide some evidence to this claim that this would actually be the case?
If not, I'll file it under "More fabricated Rossfan nonsense that suits his own agenda".
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
Unfortunately they won't make inroads, they ain't republican, but nationalists based
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
You're the one that's got caught talking out your arse as usual. You look at Belfast and the amount of working class protestants there, if they are not voting for the DUP then why are they consistently returning DUP candidates in their electoral wards? If working class Protestants are not voting for the DUP then tell me who they are voting for?
I find it utterly bizarre how working class protestants vote for the DUP but it's an absolute fact that they do - something you seem to be denying its the case.
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
There is no reason why there should not be a left wing form of Unionism, or a left wing party for people from the PUL community - other than that Unionism
is ethno-nationalism
Unionism is obsessed with the notion of Empire, of being a chosen people, and the whole culture surrounding these notions
The whole culture surrounding Unionism is that they are a superior but lost and threatened people, like white South Africans, white US evangelicals and hard right Israelis
Working class Unionists vote in the same way the white people in trailer parks who love Trump do
They might be poverty stricken and uneducated but in their own mind they will always be superior to blacks simply because they are white and they have been fooled into identifying themselves as being part of a traditional hegemony
Poor whites in the US are paranoid about losing the only thing which gives them any form of self-identity or self-respect - white supremacy
Poor Unionists are paranoid about losing the only things which give them any form of self-identity or self-respect - Protestant supremacy and the Union
Quote from: grounded on December 30, 2020, 05:12:56 PM
Is it beyond the realms of imagination that a section of the unionist population may look favourably on a united Ireland?
Good question. There are people who are "pragmatic" unionists. Ok not exactly traditionally unionist, but if they thought they might prosper better in a unified Irish state they'd vote for it.
As for the actual unionist community in the traditional sense, I'd say the numbers would be minuscule. Possibly confined to business people who would oppose it but accept the outcome of a democratic vote if it was in some way beneficial to them
If this thread has proven one thing it is that whatever about Unionism having a long way to travel, Nationalism might have an even longer road.
This thread is a name calling exercise. If you believe in unification then go out and make the case for it, to Southerners and Unionists. If you believe that a United Ireland benefits all the people of this Island then that should be all you need to say.
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
Definitely not, loyalist working class areas are shamelessly right-wing.
Quote from: trailer on December 30, 2020, 06:33:20 PM
If this thread has proven one thing it is that whatever about Unionism having a long way to travel, Nationalism might have an even longer road.
This thread is a name calling exercise. If you believe in unification then go out and make the case for it, to Southerners and Unionists. If you believe that a United Ireland benefits all the people of this Island then that should be all you need to say.
Probably the best post so far.
People say identity politics is largely a US creation but NI has been living identity politics for its whole existence, and long before
Class as an issue has no outlet and that means traditional left/right politics has no outlet
Working class Protestants and Catholics should have far more in common with each other than that which divides them
This sort of "politics" is an anti-politics, a total collective abdication of reality
And yes it is worse on the Unionist side, but the Nationalist side also perpetuates it
Quote from: general_lee on December 30, 2020, 06:39:02 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 30, 2020, 06:33:20 PM
If this thread has proven one thing it is that whatever about Unionism having a long way to travel, Nationalism might have an even longer road.
This thread is a name calling exercise. If you believe in unification then go out and make the case for it, to Southerners and Unionists. If you believe that a United Ireland benefits all the people of this Island then that should be all you need to say.
Probably the best post so far.
Far too adult a suggestion for a lot here ::)
Shooter there's also the 6 Cos share of the "UK" National debt c£37,000,000,000
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
You're the one that's got caught talking out your arse as usual. You look at Belfast and the amount of working class protestants there, if they are not voting for the DUP then why are they consistently returning DUP candidates in their electoral wards? If working class Protestants are not voting for the DUP then tell me who they are voting for?
I find it utterly bizarre how working class protestants vote for the DUP but it's an absolute fact that they do - something you seem to be denying its the case.
I've explained already why they vote DUP and not PUP, I find it bizarre why you can't read my posts !!!
DUP keep SF out, PUP have absolutely no one that would have the intellect or ability to keep two factions within working class loyalist together.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
You're the one that's got caught talking out your arse as usual. You look at Belfast and the amount of working class protestants there, if they are not voting for the DUP then why are they consistently returning DUP candidates in their electoral wards? If working class Protestants are not voting for the DUP then tell me who they are voting for?
I find it utterly bizarre how working class protestants vote for the DUP but it's an absolute fact that they do - something you seem to be denying its the case.
I've explained already why they vote DUP and not PUP, I find it bizarre why you can't read my posts !!!
DUP keep SF out, PUP have absolutely no one that would have the intellect or ability to keep two factions within working class loyalist together.
Exactly and that's what loyalism and unionism boils down to.
What will the DUP do for working class protestants? Nothing.
Why do they vote for the DUP? Because the DUP are a vile, bigoted party whose whole mandate is based on sectarian hatred and that's what you have to deal with when it comes to unionism.
You can say the PUP have nobody of the intellect or ability but it's also because the most important thing that drives a voter from working class protestant areas is clearly sectarian issues, it's not the betterment of their lives or their children's lives, it's keeping the protestant ascendancy and keeping the catholics down. Do you think Poots, Sammy Wilson or Gregory Campbell are men of intellect or ability?
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 07:04:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
You're the one that's got caught talking out your arse as usual. You look at Belfast and the amount of working class protestants there, if they are not voting for the DUP then why are they consistently returning DUP candidates in their electoral wards? If working class Protestants are not voting for the DUP then tell me who they are voting for?
I find it utterly bizarre how working class protestants vote for the DUP but it's an absolute fact that they do - something you seem to be denying its the case.
I've explained already why they vote DUP and not PUP, I find it bizarre why you can't read my posts !!!
DUP keep SF out, PUP have absolutely no one that would have the intellect or ability to keep two factions within working class loyalist together.
Exactly and that's what loyalism and unionism boils down to.
What will the DUP do for working class protestants? Nothing.
Why do they vote for the DUP? Because the DUP are a vile, bigoted party whose whole mandate is based on sectarian hatred and that's what you have to deal with when it comes to unionism.
You can say the PUP have nobody of the intellect or ability but it's also because the most important thing that drives a voter from working class protestant areas is clearly sectarian issues, it's not the betterment of their lives or their children's lives, it's keeping the protestant ascendancy and keeping the catholics down. Do you think Poots, Sammy Wilson or Gregory Campbell are men of intellect or ability?
Their intellect is better than yours as I've answered this question and you keep saying the same thing...
Tell me how many of the 900,000 unionists would listen to your rubbish?
None, and that's why people like you will not be encouraging unionist/loyalists into a UI
Take your head out of a sf arse and think for yourself, the north needs a party that will attract both sides, the farce we've had these past four odd years is pathetic
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 05:25:22 PM
Quote from: grounded on December 30, 2020, 05:12:56 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
So what was the good friday agreement?
When faced with the demographics and abandonment by the British government they will have to compromise.
In any event it wont be the extremes on either side, it will be the middle ground that will decide.
Say 15 years from now, Scotland has left the union, applied for and joined the EU snd is doing quite well.
Not having the same EU funding and wirh the South East England being the cenrte of political and financial power in the uk, NI may become an even bigger economic backwater than it is now. Huge disparities in standard of living between north and south. Even greater emigration of young Unionists to England.
Is it beyond the realms of imagination that a section of the unionist population may look favourably on a united Ireland?
Paisley, McGuiness, Hume were able to put their differences aside and come together. Even Paisley came around in the end.
Unfortunately we now have Michelle O'Neill and Arlene Foster as the main leaders now and neither inspire confidence. They struggle to agree on anything or make any decisions at the moment let alone a major issue such as a united Ireland
Yep, not charismatic leaders. But thats the thing, they will not be there forever.
Perhaps we will see the entrance of the bigger parties from the south?
Surely if they are genuinely interested in a united Ireland and want to persuade unionists they will have to enter politics here. Put their policies to the electorate. Far too easy to shake their heads and say ' we dont want to get involved '
But the truth is the demographics are plain to see. This whole debate will need to be addressed soon. There will be a referendum it might not be for 10 or 15 years but its coming down the line. Far better to be prepared and if it ever was to pass have some sway with almost 40% of a UI electorate.
Why are they not running candidates?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 07:11:45 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 07:04:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
You're the one that's got caught talking out your arse as usual. You look at Belfast and the amount of working class protestants there, if they are not voting for the DUP then why are they consistently returning DUP candidates in their electoral wards? If working class Protestants are not voting for the DUP then tell me who they are voting for?
I find it utterly bizarre how working class protestants vote for the DUP but it's an absolute fact that they do - something you seem to be denying its the case.
I've explained already why they vote DUP and not PUP, I find it bizarre why you can't read my posts !!!
DUP keep SF out, PUP have absolutely no one that would have the intellect or ability to keep two factions within working class loyalist together.
Exactly and that's what loyalism and unionism boils down to.
What will the DUP do for working class protestants? Nothing.
Why do they vote for the DUP? Because the DUP are a vile, bigoted party whose whole mandate is based on sectarian hatred and that's what you have to deal with when it comes to unionism.
You can say the PUP have nobody of the intellect or ability but it's also because the most important thing that drives a voter from working class protestant areas is clearly sectarian issues, it's not the betterment of their lives or their children's lives, it's keeping the protestant ascendancy and keeping the catholics down. Do you think Poots, Sammy Wilson or Gregory Campbell are men of intellect or ability?
Their intellect is better than yours as I've answered this question and you keep saying the same thing...
Tell me how many of the 900,000 unionists would listen to your rubbish?
None, and that's why people like you will not be encouraging unionist/loyalists into a UI
Take your head out of a sf arse and think for yourself, the north needs a party that will attract both sides, the farce we've had these past four odd years is pathetic
Ah yes, complete and utter bullshit again.
Not many unionists are interested in listening to any nationalist, they are a section of society fuelled by bigotry.
As usual when the discussion tends to go anywhere with a bit of depth you resort to insults as it's beyond you to debate and susbtantiate their misguided views. You had a number of questions put to you and you failed to answer them.
I'll repeat them again.
What will the DUP do for working class protestants?
Do you think Poots, Sammy Wilson or Gregory Campbell are men of intellect or ability?
The DUP's bigotry is what appeals to working class protestants.
I've answered but I'll do it again as you're thick
Sammy Poots and Campbell are smart enough to be voted in comfortably for a long time, so yes clever to work the Protestant voters.
What will the DUP do for working class Protestants, they'll keep SF in check and keep the unionist majority. I've answered this also btw
Your hatred for all things unionist obviously blinds you.
Now please don't ask me again to answer, they would be a 3rd time
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:05:59 PM
What will the DUP do for working class Protestants, they'll keep SF in check and keep the unionist majority. I've answered this also btw
Sammy et al might engage in public abuse of SF, and this may be popular with the voters. They do nothing to maintain the unionist majority, quite the opposite, as more intelligent moderate people get tired of their antics and drift into Alliance.
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:05:59 PM
I've answered but I'll do it again as you're thick
Sammy Poots and Campbell are smart enough to be voted in comfortably for a long time, so yes clever to work the Protestant voters.
What will the DUP do for working class Protestants, they'll keep SF in check and keep the unionist majority. I've answered this also btw
Your hatred for all things unionist obviously blinds you.
Now please don't ask me again to answer, they would be a 3rd time
That's not an answer.
What will they do for working class protestants?
They will do nothing, working class protestants vote for the DUP on sectarian lines and that is the mentality of unionism and loyalism.
The only think the DUP stand for is naked sectarianism and they are overwhelmingly the biggest party of unionism and this is what you have to deal with.
Unionism simply can not be reasoned with, it's like trying to engage with the KKK.
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 30, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
That's not high on their lists, staying in the union is what matters, otherwise they'd vote towards a moderate party...
Places in working class areas are dealing with paramilitary organisations, this stops inward investments, what prospective businesses want pay protection money, what companies wants to build houses that they'll end up paying a percentage to paramilitaries.
This alone is one reason why the likes of the PUP won't get votes as they pander to these gangs
Get rid of the paramilitaries and things will change
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:23:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 30, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
That's not high on their lists, staying in the union is what matters, otherwise they'd vote towards a moderate party...
Places in working class areas are dealing with paramilitary organisations, this stops inward investments, what prospective businesses want pay protection money, what companies wants to build houses that they'll end up paying a percentage to paramilitaries.
This alone is one reason why the likes of the PUP won't get votes as they pander to these gangs
Get rid of the paramilitaries and things will change
Excellent post.
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 30, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
The Alliance are a fringe party though, they will get a small element of middle class liberal voters from suburban areas and that's it.
The problem is unionism is entrenched in sectarianism, it's all they have stood for about 200 years. It's the only thing that exists in their culture - the orange order is the staple of their being, the 12th is the staple of their being. We both know what the orange order and the 12th of July stand for. Some of us know that's why we spent every summer in our childhood in the likes of Carlingford or Bundoran for a week in July.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:23:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 30, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
That's not high on their lists, staying in the union is what matters, otherwise they'd vote towards a moderate party...
Places in working class areas are dealing with paramilitary organisations, this stops inward investments, what prospective businesses want pay protection money, what companies wants to build houses that they'll end up paying a percentage to paramilitaries.
This alone is one reason why the likes of the PUP won't get votes as they pander to these gangs
Get rid of the paramilitaries and things will change
And the DUP don't pander to these gangs?
Dee Stitt?????
You talk some amount of absolute bollocks.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:21:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:05:59 PM
I've answered but I'll do it again as you're thick
Sammy Poots and Campbell are smart enough to be voted in comfortably for a long time, so yes clever to work the Protestant voters.
What will the DUP do for working class Protestants, they'll keep SF in check and keep the unionist majority. I've answered this also btw
Your hatred for all things unionist obviously blinds you.
Now please don't ask me again to answer, they would be a 3rd time
That's not an answer.
What will they do for working class protestants?
They will do nothing, working class protestants vote for the DUP on sectarian lines and that is the mentality of unionism and loyalism.
The only think the DUP stand for is naked sectarianism and they are overwhelmingly the biggest party of unionism and this is what you have to deal with.
Unionism simply can not be reasoned with, it's like trying to engage with the KKK.
Do nationalists/republicans vote unionist parties? Very strange
Again they vote DUP because they keep out SF from being the biggest party! That's the answer I've now said it three times!
If you think you can continue with your views on unionist and expect anyone to go with you then you are daft
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:23:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 30, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
That's not high on their lists, staying in the union is what matters, otherwise they'd vote towards a moderate party...
Places in working class areas are dealing with paramilitary organisations, this stops inward investments, what prospective businesses want pay protection money, what companies wants to build houses that they'll end up paying a percentage to paramilitaries.
This alone is one reason why the likes of the PUP won't get votes as they pander to these gangs
Get rid of the paramilitaries and things will change
And the DUP don't pander to these gangs?
Dee Stitt?????
You talk some amount of absolute bollocks.
SF talked to paramilitaries every flipping day ! Can you tell me the difference?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:28:41 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:21:57 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:05:59 PM
I've answered but I'll do it again as you're thick
Sammy Poots and Campbell are smart enough to be voted in comfortably for a long time, so yes clever to work the Protestant voters.
What will the DUP do for working class Protestants, they'll keep SF in check and keep the unionist majority. I've answered this also btw
Your hatred for all things unionist obviously blinds you.
Now please don't ask me again to answer, they would be a 3rd time
That's not an answer.
What will they do for working class protestants?
They will do nothing, working class protestants vote for the DUP on sectarian lines and that is the mentality of unionism and loyalism.
The only think the DUP stand for is naked sectarianism and they are overwhelmingly the biggest party of unionism and this is what you have to deal with.
Unionism simply can not be reasoned with, it's like trying to engage with the KKK.
Do nationalists/republicans vote unionist parties? Very strange
Again they vote DUP because they keep out SF from being the biggest party! That's the answer I've now said it three times!
If you think you can continue with your views on unionist and expect anyone to go with you then you are daft
Working class protestants vote along sectarian lines for the DUP despite the fact that the DUP will continue to neglect working class protestant communities and actually down of them.
Why do they do that? Bigotry. They will cut their nose off to spite their face and that tells you the mentality of unionism and loyalism. You can say the PUP lack intellect or ability but what intellect of ability do the likes of Poots, Wilson or Campbell offer - they are one trick ponies who give us diatribes of bigotry and sectarianism and nothing else. The PUP at the very least would be representatives of the needs of working class protestant areas but the bigotry of unionism will only vote on bigoted lines.
So how do you engage with that section of people? They will actively vote for a party that will neglect their needs in order to push a sectarian agenda. How do you engage with a community who will cut their nose off to spite their face?
It's a question you continue dodging.
I haven't dodged any question! I'm losing the will, they are voted in because there is no alternative that will stop SF from running the show, it's as simple as that. That's me answering that 4 times now...
It might not be the answer you want but it is, the PUP won't ever get the vote, until they have a unifying voice that'll get both sides of that working class unionist on board. Phew you are hard work lad!
Your missus must be tortured when asking what you want for dinner!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:56:48 PM
I haven't dodged any question! I'm losing the will, they are voted in because there is no alternative that will stop SF from running the show, it's as simple as that. That's me answering that 4 times now...
It might not be the answer you want but it is, the PUP won't ever get the vote, until they have a unifying voice that'll get both sides of that working class unionist on board. Phew you are hard work lad!
Your missus must be tortured when asking what you want for dinner!
And how do you engage in a community who will vote against their own needs in order to further a sectarian agenda.
The DUP have absolutely no interest in working class protestants and their need and show quite open disregard for them, they those working class protestants further the sectarian agenda of the DUP.
So I'll ask you once again - how do you engage with a section of society like that where a Protestant ascendancy and sectarianism is their sole interest? A section of society who vote to oppress themselves so long as the Catholics get it worse?
Tell me how you engage with that.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
There is no reason why there should not be a left wing form of Unionism, or a left wing party for people from the PUL community - other than that Unionism is ethno-nationalism
Unionism is obsessed with the notion of Empire, of being a chosen people, and the whole culture surrounding these notions
The whole culture surrounding Unionism is that they are a superior but lost and threatened people, like white South Africans, white US evangelicals and hard right Israelis
Working class Unionists vote in the same way the white people in trailer parks who love Trump do
They might be poverty stricken and uneducated but in their own mind they will always be superior to blacks simply because they are white and they have been fooled into identifying themselves as being part of a traditional hegemony
Poor whites in the US are paranoid about losing the only thing which gives them any form of self-identity or self-respect - white supremacy
Poor Unionists are paranoid about losing the only things which give them any form of self-identity or self-respect - Protestant supremacy and the Union
Why do we need a left wing party for unionism. What can't we have a left wing party that encompasses everyone
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
There is no reason why there should not be a left wing form of Unionism, or a left wing party for people from the PUL community - other than that Unionism is ethno-nationalism
Unionism is obsessed with the notion of Empire, of being a chosen people, and the whole culture surrounding these notions
The whole culture surrounding Unionism is that they are a superior but lost and threatened people, like white South Africans, white US evangelicals and hard right Israelis
Working class Unionists vote in the same way the white people in trailer parks who love Trump do
They might be poverty stricken and uneducated but in their own mind they will always be superior to blacks simply because they are white and they have been fooled into identifying themselves as being part of a traditional hegemony
Poor whites in the US are paranoid about losing the only thing which gives them any form of self-identity or self-respect - white supremacy
Poor Unionists are paranoid about losing the only things which give them any form of self-identity or self-respect - Protestant supremacy and the Union
Why do we need a left wing party for unionism. What can't we have a left wing party that encompasses everyone
Left wing parties fly in the face of unionism as unionism is all about a protestant ascendacny.
Unionists would only vote for a deeply sectarian left wing party.
And that's the thing the lads from the free state don't understand, the mindset of unionism means it simply cannot be engaged with, it's a section of society that will continually cut its nose off to spite its face.
Quote from: general_lee on December 30, 2020, 06:37:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
Definitely not, loyalist working class areas are shamelessly right-wing.
They can't all be can they?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:29:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:23:08 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on December 30, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
They do nothing at all for working class Protestants. Look at east Belfast and how deprived massive parts of it are. Sure the other year they tried to claim how great it was there because they claimed the titanic museum as a massive source of revenue for east Belfast. Charlatans.
Not being sf seems to be all they need to do. Stir it up come election time.
That's not high on their lists, staying in the union is what matters, otherwise they'd vote towards a moderate party...
Places in working class areas are dealing with paramilitary organisations, this stops inward investments, what prospective businesses want pay protection money, what companies wants to build houses that they'll end up paying a percentage to paramilitaries.
This alone is one reason why the likes of the PUP won't get votes as they pander to these gangs
Get rid of the paramilitaries and things will change
And the DUP don't pander to these gangs?
Dee Stitt?????
You talk some amount of absolute bollocks.
SF talked to paramilitaries every flipping day ! Can you tell me the difference?
What are you bringing in SF for here?
You are saying that working class loyalists won't vote for the PUP because they are connected with criminal gangs.
We have all seen the cosy relationships leading politicians from DUP/UUP have had with leading loyalist paramilitaries in the past.
You've completely contradicted yourself AGAIN.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:04:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
There is no reason why there should not be a left wing form of Unionism, or a left wing party for people from the PUL community - other than that Unionism is ethno-nationalism
Unionism is obsessed with the notion of Empire, of being a chosen people, and the whole culture surrounding these notions
The whole culture surrounding Unionism is that they are a superior but lost and threatened people, like white South Africans, white US evangelicals and hard right Israelis
Working class Unionists vote in the same way the white people in trailer parks who love Trump do
They might be poverty stricken and uneducated but in their own mind they will always be superior to blacks simply because they are white and they have been fooled into identifying themselves as being part of a traditional hegemony
Poor whites in the US are paranoid about losing the only thing which gives them any form of self-identity or self-respect - white supremacy
Poor Unionists are paranoid about losing the only things which give them any form of self-identity or self-respect - Protestant supremacy and the Union
Why do we need a left wing party for unionism. What can't we have a left wing party that encompasses everyone
Left wing parties fly in the face of unionism as unionism is all about a protestant ascendacny.
Unionists would only vote for a deeply sectarian left wing party.
And that's the thing the lads from the free state don't understand, the mindset of unionism means it simply cannot be engaged with, it's a section of society that will continually cut its nose off to spite its face.
There's bound to be Working class left wing unionists and loyalists and that's who you start with. They can't all be right wing nuts. I refuse to believe that
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:59:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:56:48 PM
I haven't dodged any question! I'm losing the will, they are voted in because there is no alternative that will stop SF from running the show, it's as simple as that. That's me answering that 4 times now...
It might not be the answer you want but it is, the PUP won't ever get the vote, until they have a unifying voice that'll get both sides of that working class unionist on board. Phew you are hard work lad!
Your missus must be tortured when asking what you want for dinner!
And how do you engage in a community who will vote against their own needs in order to further a sectarian agenda.
The DUP have absolutely no interest in working class protestants and their need and show quite open disregard for them, they those working class protestants further the sectarian agenda of the DUP.
So I'll ask you once again - how do you engage with a section of society like that where a Protestant ascendancy and sectarianism is their sole interest? A section of society who vote to oppress themselves so long as the Catholics get it worse?
Tell me how you engage with that.
Here's the thing Angelo I don't have engage with it, neither do you, I've answered and given you the reasons, if you don't accept those then you need to engage with someone from that area, of course you won't as you (based on the rubbish you've spewed so far) haven't the capacity to understand what way a unionist/loyalist thinks
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 09:14:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:59:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:56:48 PM
I haven't dodged any question! I'm losing the will, they are voted in because there is no alternative that will stop SF from running the show, it's as simple as that. That's me answering that 4 times now...
It might not be the answer you want but it is, the PUP won't ever get the vote, until they have a unifying voice that'll get both sides of that working class unionist on board. Phew you are hard work lad!
Your missus must be tortured when asking what you want for dinner!
And how do you engage in a community who will vote against their own needs in order to further a sectarian agenda.
The DUP have absolutely no interest in working class protestants and their need and show quite open disregard for them, they those working class protestants further the sectarian agenda of the DUP.
So I'll ask you once again - how do you engage with a section of society like that where a Protestant ascendancy and sectarianism is their sole interest? A section of society who vote to oppress themselves so long as the Catholics get it worse?
Tell me how you engage with that.
Here's the thing Angelo I don't have engage with it, neither do you, I've answered and given you the reasons, if you don't accept those then you need to engage with someone from that area, of course you won't as you (based on the rubbish you've spewed so far) haven't the capacity to understand what way a unionist/loyalist thinks
So you're contending something and when pressed on it you can't back up your contention?
The floor was yours but you shit it when you the opportunity to articulate your point AGAIN.
Pattern emerging here.
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 09:13:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:04:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
There is no reason why there should not be a left wing form of Unionism, or a left wing party for people from the PUL community - other than that Unionism is ethno-nationalism
Unionism is obsessed with the notion of Empire, of being a chosen people, and the whole culture surrounding these notions
The whole culture surrounding Unionism is that they are a superior but lost and threatened people, like white South Africans, white US evangelicals and hard right Israelis
Working class Unionists vote in the same way the white people in trailer parks who love Trump do
They might be poverty stricken and uneducated but in their own mind they will always be superior to blacks simply because they are white and they have been fooled into identifying themselves as being part of a traditional hegemony
Poor whites in the US are paranoid about losing the only thing which gives them any form of self-identity or self-respect - white supremacy
Poor Unionists are paranoid about losing the only things which give them any form of self-identity or self-respect - Protestant supremacy and the Union
Why do we need a left wing party for unionism. What can't we have a left wing party that encompasses everyone
Left wing parties fly in the face of unionism as unionism is all about a protestant ascendacny.
Unionists would only vote for a deeply sectarian left wing party.
And that's the thing the lads from the free state don't understand, the mindset of unionism means it simply cannot be engaged with, it's a section of society that will continually cut its nose off to spite its face.
There's bound to be Working class left wing unionists and loyalists and that's who you start with. They can't all be right wing nuts. I refuse to believe that
My initial point here before Milltown made a clown of himself arguing something he can't even substantiate is the point that the PUP are a unionist party representative of working class loyalists communities. They would style themselves as on the more left wing side of politics, yet working class unionists and loyalists vote in their droves for the DUP. Why do they do that? Bigotry and sectarianism primarily, although the PUP have their hands dripping in blood - I don't think their rhetoric and politics are anywhere near as extreme or sectarian as that of the DUP or UUP for that matter.
And that is why working class loyalists vote for the DUP.
So my question is how is it possible to engage with unionism, their whole existence, their whole culture is to lord it over the Catholic subclass. Things are a lot better these days. There is a certain element of middle class liberal voters of a unionist background that will vote Alliance, other than those however 90% of unionism will vote for the sectarian policies and ideology or the DUP/UUP/TUV.
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Spoken like some eejit who takes his views from RTE without knowing anything about the situation up north.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:21:43 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 09:13:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:04:05 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 09:01:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 06:31:24 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 30, 2020, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
Stop talking shite and stop digging a hole for yourself Angelo. Why don't you ask someone from these areas, try that first
Would there be no scope for PBP to make headway in loyalist working class areas or would they be seen as too nationalist and/or republican
There is no reason why there should not be a left wing form of Unionism, or a left wing party for people from the PUL community - other than that Unionism is ethno-nationalism
Unionism is obsessed with the notion of Empire, of being a chosen people, and the whole culture surrounding these notions
The whole culture surrounding Unionism is that they are a superior but lost and threatened people, like white South Africans, white US evangelicals and hard right Israelis
Working class Unionists vote in the same way the white people in trailer parks who love Trump do
They might be poverty stricken and uneducated but in their own mind they will always be superior to blacks simply because they are white and they have been fooled into identifying themselves as being part of a traditional hegemony
Poor whites in the US are paranoid about losing the only thing which gives them any form of self-identity or self-respect - white supremacy
Poor Unionists are paranoid about losing the only things which give them any form of self-identity or self-respect - Protestant supremacy and the Union
Why do we need a left wing party for unionism. What can't we have a left wing party that encompasses everyone
Left wing parties fly in the face of unionism as unionism is all about a protestant ascendacny.
Unionists would only vote for a deeply sectarian left wing party.
And that's the thing the lads from the free state don't understand, the mindset of unionism means it simply cannot be engaged with, it's a section of society that will continually cut its nose off to spite its face.
There's bound to be Working class left wing unionists and loyalists and that's who you start with. They can't all be right wing nuts. I refuse to believe that
My initial point here before Milltown made a clown of himself arguing something he can't even substantiate is the point that the PUP are a unionist party representative of working class loyalists communities. They would style themselves as on the more left wing side of politics, yet working class unionists and loyalists vote in their droves for the DUP. Why do they do that? Bigotry and sectarianism primarily, although the PUP have their hands dripping in blood - I don't think their rhetoric and politics are anywhere near as extreme or sectarian as that of the DUP or UUP for that matter.
And that is why working class loyalists vote for the DUP.
So my question is how is it possible to engage with unionism, their whole existence, their whole culture is to lord it over the Catholic subclass. Things are a lot better these days. There is a certain element of middle class liberal voters of a unionist background that will vote Alliance, other than those however 90% of unionism will vote for the sectarian policies and ideology or the DUP/UUP/TUV.
I have Protestant friends who definitely put working class values above sectarian bullshit. They are out there. They're the ones who need to be engaged first and then build from there
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
The typical Fianna Gael scenario - "they're both as bad as each other".
I see the Brits really liked Bruton as Taoiseach in the released papers today. They said he was the best they could get and hopefully he'd get another term.
FFS..
Plus all this...it's up to people to vote SF and the DUP out etc. and vote for somebody else...blah, blah...fu*king blah.
Every election from now on, whether you like it or not, will be a green/orange headcount. That's the end game - partition has come full circle and it's a numbers game. People like you, from the 26 counties, don't get it. You just don't understand it.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:16:18 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 09:14:53 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 08:59:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 08:56:48 PM
I haven't dodged any question! I'm losing the will, they are voted in because there is no alternative that will stop SF from running the show, it's as simple as that. That's me answering that 4 times now...
It might not be the answer you want but it is, the PUP won't ever get the vote, until they have a unifying voice that'll get both sides of that working class unionist on board. Phew you are hard work lad!
Your missus must be tortured when asking what you want for dinner!
And how do you engage in a community who will vote against their own needs in order to further a sectarian agenda.
The DUP have absolutely no interest in working class protestants and their need and show quite open disregard for them, they those working class protestants further the sectarian agenda of the DUP.
So I'll ask you once again - how do you engage with a section of society like that where a Protestant ascendancy and sectarianism is their sole interest? A section of society who vote to oppress themselves so long as the Catholics get it worse?
Tell me how you engage with that.
Here's the thing Angelo I don't have engage with it, neither do you, I've answered and given you the reasons, if you don't accept those then you need to engage with someone from that area, of course you won't as you (based on the rubbish you've spewed so far) haven't the capacity to understand what way a unionist/loyalist thinks
So you're contending something and when pressed on it you can't back up your contention?
The floor was yours but you shit it when you the opportunity to articulate your point AGAIN.
Pattern emerging here.
I'm answering your question ffs! The DUP get those votes to keep SF out of majority... please please take that as an answer, again it's not the answer you like but it's the truth.
And you talk about abuse from me?
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Yeah, pity we didn't have Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to vote for. One who ruined the f**king country a few years back and should never be allowed near the levers of power in a million years, the other a shower of Blueshirt West Brit bastards who would happily piss on the poor... And both as corrupt as each other.
[/quote]
Sectarian and irredentist politics is the problem, it breeds suspicion and when you have terminal suspicion, you have a failed state
Part of the problem is that one of SF's core principles is that NI can only ever be a failed state - so they have a vested interest that it will always fail - it's pretty disastrous for governance that one of the ruling parties has an interest that the state is a failure, isn't it, they don't take their seats in Westminster therefore no representation
Then the other main ruling party are flat earther culture warriors whose greatest ambition is to live to see somebody else invent a time machine so they can go back and live in 1690
So the first thing you do is get rid of SF and the DUP and only the voters can do that
Party politics which runs along the lines it does in the north is a disaster - but clearly a UUP-SDLP coalition would be better than SF-DUP, like don't tell me NI would not have been better served with Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood at the helm rather than Punch and Judy
I've often wondered what you do if you're a left-wing Unionist, there's nobody to vote for, maybe the Green Party, do People Before Profit up there have any Protestant candidates
Plenty of other places have had sectarian or ethnic strife and overcome it, Liverpool used to be a deeply sectarian city but now has a fierce sense of collective identity and sectarianism is basically non-existent, you make a collective decision as a people that everybody has a vested interest in making society work rather than it failing
NI has only ever been imagined as a transient thing - it's a bit like the way transient renters have no vested interest in taking care of a property - maybe if it went independent it would have a vested interest in being a success rather than a failure
[/quote]
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
PUP haven't a voice ffs, they haven't the intellect nor the money to have a sustainable assault on working class politics! Can you imagine the likes of a Jo Bunting being a leader?
There's not too many political parties that haven't blood on their hands, alliance, greens, PBP, and SDLP bring blood free (though I'll hold judgement on one SDLP member during one period)
Would you rather Jo Bunting in? If you do, then in all honesty you need your head looked at.
Working class Protestants in Belfast would never have voted DUP, in fact David Irvine expressed his disgust at the DUP and their views.
There is a void there willing to be filled with a sensible political party in working class unionist areas, but while people will listen to the likes of that wee twat Bryson they will continue to divide.
Only if a middle green and orange party has power, we won't get everyone or a majority onboard!
Who have working class Protestants always voted for?
TBH the only real difference between the UUP and DUP is which church service they attend.
Working class protestants have consistently returned UUP/DUP bigots and will always continue to do so. They are indoctrinated to do so.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:38:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
PUP haven't a voice ffs, they haven't the intellect nor the money to have a sustainable assault on working class politics! Can you imagine the likes of a Jo Bunting being a leader?
There's not too many political parties that haven't blood on their hands, alliance, greens, PBP, and SDLP bring blood free (though I'll hold judgement on one SDLP member during one period)
Would you rather Jo Bunting in? If you do, then in all honesty you need your head looked at.
Working class Protestants in Belfast would never have voted DUP, in fact David Irvine expressed his disgust at the DUP and their views.
There is a void there willing to be filled with a sensible political party in working class unionist areas, but while people will listen to the likes of that wee twat Bryson they will continue to divide.
Only if a middle green and orange party has power, we won't get everyone or a majority onboard!
Who have working class Protestants always voted for?
TBH the only real difference between the UUP and DUP is which church service they attend.
Working class protestants have consistently returned UUP/DUP bigots and will always continue to do so. They are indoctrinated to do so.
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:38:01 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 05:17:43 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 30, 2020, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
It's changed, if I look at unionism from the day I started work (88) to now, it's changed dramatically, it still needs to change, but so do republicans.
Why are working class communities like Tigers Bay and the Shankhill returning DUP candidates who are completely at odds with those from working class communities? It's always been the same with unionism, they cut their nose off to spite their face.
It's either DUP Arlene and co, PUP (the equivalent of SF) or UUP in those areas. They are picking the ones that won't back down to SF, that's the only policy that will get people out to vote in those areas.
Green orange votes needs to change? the middle rd unionist might go back to UUP or Alliance, which lives DUP or PUP and since David Ervine's death no one within that group has the intellect to control the hot heads.
The PUP are a much more agreeable aspect of loyalism than the DUP are in all honesty.
The PUP have their hands dripped in sectarian murder, the DUP were the ones who stoked up the atmosphere for sectarian murder but did not want to get their hands dirty.
All of unionism is absolutely drenched in sectarian hatred - UUP, DUP, TUV, PUP.
What is striking is that working class loyalist areas vote for the DUP over the PUP. That's amazing and tells you all you need to know about how entrenched loyalism is.
PUP haven't a voice ffs, they haven't the intellect nor the money to have a sustainable assault on working class politics! Can you imagine the likes of a Jo Bunting being a leader?
There's not too many political parties that haven't blood on their hands, alliance, greens, PBP, and SDLP bring blood free (though I'll hold judgement on one SDLP member during one period)
Would you rather Jo Bunting in? If you do, then in all honesty you need your head looked at.
Working class Protestants in Belfast would never have voted DUP, in fact David Irvine expressed his disgust at the DUP and their views.
There is a void there willing to be filled with a sensible political party in working class unionist areas, but while people will listen to the likes of that wee twat Bryson they will continue to divide.
Only if a middle green and orange party has power, we won't get everyone or a majority onboard!
Who have working class Protestants always voted for?
TBH the only real difference between the UUP and DUP is which church service they attend.
Working class protestants have consistently returned UUP/DUP bigots and will always continue to do so. They are indoctrinated to do so.
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
Precisely.
Engaging with unionism is equivalent to engaging with the KKK.
All they stand for is Protestant supremacy, that is the overriding stape of their culture.
Now of course it doesn't apply to all Protestants in the O6 but it does apply to them in the majority of cases a voting bloc.
When Willie Frazer brought his band of bigots down south to march in Dublin, how were they welcomed?
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Another one that can't be talked to
A Catholic DUP man
A human wall
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Another one that can't be talked to
A Catholic DUP man
I think you'll find you have a lot more in common with the DUP than me, amigo.
Just like you have an awful lot in common with Donald Trump.
You're a walking, talking contradiction.
Quote from: red hander on December 30, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Yeah, pity we didn't have Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to vote for. One who ruined the f**king country a few years back and should never be allowed near the levers of power in a million years, the other a shower of Blueshirt West Brit bastards who would happily piss on the poor... And both as corrupt as each other.
At least they didn't murder anybody
Sinn Fein ruined Ireland to a far, far greater degree
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:10:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Another one that can't be talked to
A Catholic DUP man
I think you'll find you have a lot more in common with the DUP than me, amigo.
Just like you have an awful lot in common with Donald Trump.
You're a walking, talking contradiction.
"I think you'll find...."
"No,
you're Trump"
Repeat by 100
With lads like you around, a united Ireland will be nice and long in coming
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QtDbxfLAV0FKFxFoYUsnXlcjdn5ZYvYgegi2Lf3C6zqZl51jlwwJu8vjx-AxVG047t3PrU3cuxFO7N7eyQQ0N1cr0gLT4l5p7iXm5t18qgcYUxH-h-z-9XKBrqttmH07dl541rUFYgBeZ80k4fxeu90mL8vi2gpleLnjsHACUTpGWClu)
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:10:57 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 30, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Yeah, pity we didn't have Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to vote for. One who ruined the f**king country a few years back and should never be allowed near the levers of power in a million years, the other a shower of Blueshirt West Brit bastards who would happily piss on the poor... And both as corrupt as each other.
At least they didn't murder anybody
Sinn Fein ruined Ireland to a far, far greater degree
I think you will find they did.
Many people.
Took them out of cells and strapped them to landmines in some cases.
Gunmen and killers in government offices.
But you already know that.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Sinn Fein flouted the Covid rules in a much more shameless way
No wonder the north is in such a state
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:14:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:10:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Another one that can't be talked to
A Catholic DUP man
I think you'll find you have a lot more in common with the DUP than me, amigo.
Just like you have an awful lot in common with Donald Trump.
You're a walking, talking contradiction.
"I think you'll find...."
"No, you're Trump"
Repeat by 100
With lads like you around, a united Ireland will be nice and long in coming
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QtDbxfLAV0FKFxFoYUsnXlcjdn5ZYvYgegi2Lf3C6zqZl51jlwwJu8vjx-AxVG047t3PrU3cuxFO7N7eyQQ0N1cr0gLT4l5p7iXm5t18qgcYUxH-h-z-9XKBrqttmH07dl541rUFYgBeZ80k4fxeu90mL8vi2gpleLnjsHACUTpGWClu)
Will it?
Partitionists like you are all against reform. It's why you vote for political parties like Labour and Greens who prop up the FFG duopoly on government in the Free State.
Would it be possible for you to post on here without contradicting your faux morals? Just one post?
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:15:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:10:57 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 30, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Yeah, pity we didn't have Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to vote for. One who ruined the f**king country a few years back and should never be allowed near the levers of power in a million years, the other a shower of Blueshirt West Brit bastards who would happily piss on the poor... And both as corrupt as each other.
At least they didn't murder anybody
Sinn Fein ruined Ireland to a far, far greater degree
I think you will find they did.
Many people.
Took them out of cells and strapped them to landmines in some cases.
Gunmen and killers in government offices.
But you already know that.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:10:39 PM
"I think you'll find...."
"No, you're Trump"
Repeat by 100
He did it again ;D ;D ;D
He should put up a picture of a parrot as an avatar
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Sinn Fein flouted the Covid rules in a much more shameless way
No wonder the north is in such a state
You'll find that there was little difference to that and FG and the Gardai and the Garda's funeral in Mayo.
But a compliant media nicely swept it under the carpet.
(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/e8b26/39303599.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240h700/2020-06-22_new_59801659_I2.JPG)
Sweep, sweep. Hypocrite.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:17:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:14:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:10:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Another one that can't be talked to
A Catholic DUP man
I think you'll find you have a lot more in common with the DUP than me, amigo.
Just like you have an awful lot in common with Donald Trump.
You're a walking, talking contradiction.
"I think you'll find...."
"No, you're Trump"
Repeat by 100
With lads like you around, a united Ireland will be nice and long in coming
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QtDbxfLAV0FKFxFoYUsnXlcjdn5ZYvYgegi2Lf3C6zqZl51jlwwJu8vjx-AxVG047t3PrU3cuxFO7N7eyQQ0N1cr0gLT4l5p7iXm5t18qgcYUxH-h-z-9XKBrqttmH07dl541rUFYgBeZ80k4fxeu90mL8vi2gpleLnjsHACUTpGWClu)
Will it?
Partitionists like you are all against reform. It's why you vote for political parties like Labour and Greens who prop up the FFG duopoly on government in the Free State.
Would it be possible for you to post on here without contradicting your faux morals? Just one post?
It's mad the way you always write like you're shouting
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:18:52 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:15:11 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:10:57 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 30, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Yeah, pity we didn't have Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to vote for. One who ruined the f**king country a few years back and should never be allowed near the levers of power in a million years, the other a shower of Blueshirt West Brit bastards who would happily piss on the poor... And both as corrupt as each other.
At least they didn't murder anybody
Sinn Fein ruined Ireland to a far, far greater degree
I think you will find they did.
Many people.
Took them out of cells and strapped them to landmines in some cases.
Gunmen and killers in government offices.
But you already know that.
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:10:39 PM
"I think you'll find...."
"No, you're Trump"
Repeat by 100
He did it again ;D ;D ;D
He should put up a picture of a parrot as an avatar
Pathetic response from a pathetic poster.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:20:49 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:17:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:14:31 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:10:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:09:15 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:08:27 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Are you for
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
You should take your own advice on board, Sid.
Because cognitive dissonance is you down to a tee. You are a walking talking contradiction.
Another one that can't be talked to
A Catholic DUP man
I think you'll find you have a lot more in common with the DUP than me, amigo.
Just like you have an awful lot in common with Donald Trump.
You're a walking, talking contradiction.
"I think you'll find...."
"No, you're Trump"
Repeat by 100
With lads like you around, a united Ireland will be nice and long in coming
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QtDbxfLAV0FKFxFoYUsnXlcjdn5ZYvYgegi2Lf3C6zqZl51jlwwJu8vjx-AxVG047t3PrU3cuxFO7N7eyQQ0N1cr0gLT4l5p7iXm5t18qgcYUxH-h-z-9XKBrqttmH07dl541rUFYgBeZ80k4fxeu90mL8vi2gpleLnjsHACUTpGWClu)
Will it?
Partitionists like you are all against reform. It's why you vote for political parties like Labour and Greens who prop up the FFG duopoly on government in the Free State.
Would it be possible for you to post on here without contradicting your faux morals? Just one post?
It's mad the way you always write like you're shouting
This is how you usually concede when your contradictions catch up with you.
I wonder has Il Bomber Destro, sorry, Angelo, thought about standing as a Sinn Fein candidate
I know they take anti-vaxxers, 5G conspiracists and people who shout on the internet as candidates, so he'd fit right in
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:22:29 PM
This is how you usually concede when your contradictions catch up with you.
You're so brilliant at debating
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:23:19 PM
I wonder has Il Bomber Destro, sorry, Angelo, thought about standing as a Sinn Fein candidate
I know they take anti-vaxxers, 5G conspiracists and people who shout on the internet as candidates, so he'd fit right in
Great debating.
Debating... interesting. The pair of you generally just keep going on and on and on until others give up in exasperation and you assume victory, now you're as crooked as each other it's stalemate (and torture for the rest of us).
Quote from: bennydorano on December 30, 2020, 11:09:11 PM
Debating... interesting. The pair of you generally just keep going on and on and on until others give up in exasperation and you assume victory, now you're as crooked as each other it's stalemate (and torture for the rest of us).
+10000
Quote from: bennydorano on December 30, 2020, 11:09:11 PM
Debating... interesting. The pair of you generally just keep going on and on and on until others give up in exasperation and you assume victory, now you're as crooked as each other it's stalemate (and torture for the rest of us).
I think you'll find I wasn't debating towards the end there, there's never anything to debate with that poster, I was taking the piss out of a windmilling moron who has serious anger issues
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
Lol, says the lad who wants to tell voters who to vote for.
As I said, real Trump poltics.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 11:20:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
Lol, says the lad who wants to tell voters who to vote for.
As I said, real Trump poltics.
Sure that's exactly what you lot are doing - you're
telling Irish people they can't be Irish if they don't vote of SF or are not preoccupied with a united Ireland to the exclusion of all else
Then you turn around and make childish bogus complaints about the exact thing you're doing
I haven't told anybody to vote for any party - I've simply stated - correctly - that SF and the DUP are doing sod all for NI
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 11:25:38 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 11:20:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
Lol, says the lad who wants to tell voters who to vote for.
As I said, real Trump poltics.
Sure that's exactly what you lot are doing - you're telling Irish people they can't be Irish if they don't vote of SF or are not preoccupied with a united Ireland to the exclusion of all else
Then you turn around and make childish bogus complaints about the exact thing you're doing
I haven't told anybody to vote for any party - I've simply stated - correctly - that SF and the DUP are doing sod all for NI
From a previous post:
So the first thing you do is get rid of SF and the DUP and only the voters can do that
Party politics which runs along the lines it does in the north is a disaster - but clearly a UUP-SDLP coalition would be better than SF-DUP, like don't tell me NI would not have been better served with Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood at the helm rather than Punch and JudyNo, of course you didn't...lol.
As I said, Trumpism politics.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 11:25:38 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 11:20:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
Lol, says the lad who wants to tell voters who to vote for.
As I said, real Trump poltics.
Sure that's exactly what you lot are doing - you're telling Irish people they can't be Irish if they don't vote of SF or are not preoccupied with a united Ireland to the exclusion of all else
Then you turn around and make childish bogus complaints about the exact thing you're doing
I haven't told anybody to vote for any party - I've simply stated - correctly - that SF and the DUP are doing sod all for NI
From a previous post:
So the first thing you do is get rid of SF and the DUP and only the voters can do that
Party politics which runs along the lines it does in the north is a disaster - but clearly a UUP-SDLP coalition would be better than SF-DUP, like don't tell me NI would not have been better served with Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood at the helm rather than Punch and Judy
No, of course you didn't...lol.
As I said, Trumpism politics.
I didn't tell anybody to vote for any particular party there, I expressed an entirely fair opinion about NI politics which seems to have driven you up the wall
You're one of the guys telling people they can't be Irish if they don't vote for unification
You literally can't get more "telling people" than that - and such rabble rousing emotional blackmail tactics will prove a total disaster if and when the time comes to vote on the issue
The Shinners have lost the plot on this thread big time
Deranged anger and bullying tactics everywhere, proving my points about them exactly
marty34 might also tell me what he disagrees with in what I wrote about the DUP, and why
Please use quotes marty
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 05:02:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 30, 2020, 04:57:33 PM
Quote from: GiveItToTheShooters on December 30, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 30, 2020, 03:15:32 AM
+1
If you consider yourself Irish, then you have no choice but to vote for Irish Unity ... to do anything other than vote for unity, well you'd be a hypocrite devoid of any self esteem.
Exactly, it's unforgiveable.
The people using shallow reasons like "it would cost me an extra few quid" are the worst type too. Imagine rejecting the reunification of your country over a few notes.
Putting anything other than an X in the box for Unity as an Irish person would be traitor-like behaviour.
I trust you're referring to those Northern "nationalists" who aren't prepared to pay their way in a future All Ireland State?
Around £5k per person per annum.
Anither crowd who sold their souls for English gold.
No. More specifically the Southern "nationalists" who use that excuse, but it applies to 6 county people as well.
Not sure where you're pulling 5k from either.
Already explained it but anyway
£10,000,000,000 shortfall between public income and expenditure. 2,000,000 population (give or take easier to divide 2 into 10k).
People in the 26 ('ignorant Free Staters" "bastard state" etc etc) being asked to pay €2,200 each to fund that shortfall....No!!
https://commodity.com/data/ireland/debt-clock/
I don't think the ROI is West Germany in this imaginary reunification scenario, it's a UK / EU funded project or it doesn't happen.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 11:40:41 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 11:35:20 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 11:25:38 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 11:20:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:07:28 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
Another naive free stater - typical Trump tactics.
Let's usurp democracy because I don't like it.
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:47:36 PM
People in the 26 counties don't understand unionism. They haven't a clue.
In the 1920's, there was sectarian pogroms (check out On this Day in the Irish News), the same in the late 60's and more recently at Drumcree etc.
The free staters think that you can talk to unionists, debate with them and everything will be ok. We've seen from Brexit that they'd sell their granny to appear more British than Finchley, even at their own expense never mind knowing that Boris was always going to shaft them.
You claim to be for democracy and then immediately demonstrate your opposition to it
Some amount of cognitive dissonance there
It's pretty obvious nobody can talk to you or debate with you anyway
Lol, says the lad who wants to tell voters who to vote for.
As I said, real Trump poltics.
Sure that's exactly what you lot are doing - you're telling Irish people they can't be Irish if they don't vote of SF or are not preoccupied with a united Ireland to the exclusion of all else
Then you turn around and make childish bogus complaints about the exact thing you're doing
I haven't told anybody to vote for any party - I've simply stated - correctly - that SF and the DUP are doing sod all for NI
From a previous post:
So the first thing you do is get rid of SF and the DUP and only the voters can do that
Party politics which runs along the lines it does in the north is a disaster - but clearly a UUP-SDLP coalition would be better than SF-DUP, like don't tell me NI would not have been better served with Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood at the helm rather than Punch and Judy
No, of course you didn't...lol.
As I said, Trumpism politics.
I didn't tell anybody to vote for any particular party there, I expressed an entirely fair opinion about NI politics which seems to have driven you up the wall
You're one of the guys telling people they can't be Irish if they don't vote for unification
You literally can't get more "telling people" than that - and such rabble rousing emotional blackmail tactics will prove a total disaster if and when the time comes to vote on the issue
The Shinners have lost the plot on this thread big time
Deranged anger and bullying tactics everywhere, proving my points about them exactly
More projection. You lost the plot long before this thread. Your just s constant trail of contradictions and faux hysterical outrage to fiddle your very dubious morality.
Are you still trying to justify the violent sectarian murder your state was founded on?
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:19:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Sinn Fein flouted the Covid rules in a much more shameless way
No wonder the north is in such a state
You'll find that there was little difference to that and FG and the Gardai and the Garda's funeral in Mayo.
But a compliant media nicely swept it under the carpet.
(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/e8b26/39303599.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240h700/2020-06-22_new_59801659_I2.JPG)
Sweep, sweep. Hypocrite.
SF organised a funeral procession to the graveyard with leadership from the north and south present. I didn't see Michael Martin or Leo Varadkar at the funeral of the Garda. They did send one minister, Charlie Flanagan. He was the minister for justice at the time.
The funeral Charlie Flanagan attended was for a Garda killed while on duty. SF organised a mass turn out for Bobby Storey. What did he do to deserve such an honor? Do you count his role in the IRA or his alleged role in the Northern Bank robbery?
Quote from: dublin7 on December 31, 2020, 02:47:45 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:19:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Sinn Fein flouted the Covid rules in a much more shameless way
No wonder the north is in such a state
You'll find that there was little difference to that and FG and the Gardai and the Garda's funeral in Mayo.
But a compliant media nicely swept it under the carpet.
(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/e8b26/39303599.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240h700/2020-06-22_new_59801659_I2.JPG)
Sweep, sweep. Hypocrite.
SF organised a funeral procession to the graveyard with leadership from the north and south present. I didn't see Michael Martin or Leo Varadkar at the funeral of the Garda. They did send one minister, Charlie Flanagan. He was the minister for justice at the time.
The funeral Charlie Flanagan attended was for a Garda killed while on duty. SF organised a mass turn out for Bobby Storey. What did he do to deserve such an honor? Do you count his role in the IRA or his alleged role in the Northern Bank robbery?
Or maybe he was respected for his role in the peace process? In any case, it's a simple matter of fact that both men were highly respected in their communities.
But Covid doesn't care about who is in the coffin at a funeral. Both gatherings were obvious breaches of rules. If you are going to continue slabbering about Bobby Storey's funeral for political point scoring, then stop getting precious when people raise the issue of Garda Horkan's funeral (or Golf society dinners, for that matter).
Quote from: dublin7 on December 31, 2020, 02:47:45 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:19:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Sinn Fein flouted the Covid rules in a much more shameless way
No wonder the north is in such a state
You'll find that there was little difference to that and FG and the Gardai and the Garda's funeral in Mayo.
But a compliant media nicely swept it under the carpet.
(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/e8b26/39303599.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240h700/2020-06-22_new_59801659_I2.JPG)
Sweep, sweep. Hypocrite.
SF organised a funeral procession to the graveyard with leadership from the north and south present. I didn't see Michael Martin or Leo Varadkar at the funeral of the Garda. They did send one minister, Charlie Flanagan. He was the minister for justice at the time.
The funeral Charlie Flanagan attended was for a Garda killed while on duty. SF organised a mass turn out for Bobby Storey. What did he do to deserve such an honor? Do you count his role in the IRA or his alleged role in the Northern Bank robbery?
You can't sit and have a go at the Storey funeral but not the Gardai funeral
Both funerals breached all social distancing guidelines, but only one was arranged by a political party.
Golfgate has far more in common with the Bobby Storey funeral than the Garda funeral. Both these events were arranged and attended in breach of well published guidelines by politicians themselves
Quote from: dublin7 on December 31, 2020, 11:29:03 AM
Both funerals breached all social distancing guidelines, but only one was arranged by a political party.
Golfgate has far more in common with the Bobby Storey funeral than the Garda funeral. Both these events were arranged and attended in breach of well published guidelines by politicians themselves
Politicians involved in Golfgate were held to account and resigned/forced to resign, there was zero accountability for the Storey funeral
SF play by different rules, they don't do accountability, they do untouchability and shameless brazening it out
That's why SF are rightly compared to Trump and the US Republicans, Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson and the Tories would be another accurate comparison in terms of accountability, or lack of it
That's not entirely true - Barry McElduff and Diathi McKay.
Political accountability is different in the north than it is in the south. (In that generally speaking there is none). There are many politicians in the north should have been gone over the last 5-10 years but aren't - for pretty major things too.
That's not me defending anything. They take more accountability than the dup who take absolutely none but don't take enough either.(exceptional circumstances if you're in the dup and come out of the closet) It does work differently here.
Quote from: dublin7 on December 31, 2020, 02:47:45 AM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 10:19:25 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:16:12 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 30, 2020, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 09:35:02 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 04:13:06 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 30, 2020, 03:51:03 PM
Unionism cannot be reasoned with.
Anyone who is trying to say they can is utterly deluded and living in some sort of alternate universe.
Die hard republicanism can't be reasoned with either. One of the reasons I can't see a united Ireland is due to to the die hards on both sides who'll refuse to meet in the middle.
Ah yes, another utterly ignorant free stater with the "both as bad as each other" argument. The thing is you don't have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
If you want to know anything about unionism, look at Brexit. Unionists cutting their nose off to spite their face and show what uber Brits they are.
SF not exactly covering themselves in glory either.. Using a funeral to put on a political show and arranging a mass turn out during a pandemic when they should have done the exact opposite and told everyone to stay at home
Did FG and the Gardai not also use the funeral of a Garda to put on a show and had a mass turnout that breached loads of regulations.
Nicely buried by the media with TDs and high ranking Gardai attending.
Never mind their wee "golfgate".
The cabal of the establishment.
Sinn Fein flouted the Covid rules in a much more shameless way
No wonder the north is in such a state
You'll find that there was little difference to that and FG and the Gardai and the Garda's funeral in Mayo.
But a compliant media nicely swept it under the carpet.
(https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/e8b26/39303599.ece/AUTOCROP/w1240h700/2020-06-22_new_59801659_I2.JPG)
Sweep, sweep. Hypocrite.
SF organised a funeral procession to the graveyard with leadership from the north and south present. I didn't see Michael Martin or Leo Varadkar at the funeral of the Garda. They did send one minister, Charlie Flanagan. He was the minister for justice at the time.
The funeral Charlie Flanagan attended was for a Garda killed while on duty. SF organised a mass turn out for Bobby Storey. What did he do to deserve such an honor? Do you count his role in the IRA or his alleged role in the Northern Bank robbery?
They either breached regulations or they didn't. Quite clear from the picture they didn't.
The manner in which the person died should not legislate for the multiple breaches of regulations as was seen at the Garda's funeral. To me it looked like the Gardai oragnised a mass turnout at the funeral of the Garda. Now it's either right or it's wrong and once again you have shown yourself to be a complete and utter hypocrite.
I can't tell you whether Bobby Storey was involved in the Northern Bank robbery.
I can tell you Charlie Flanagan continues to stifle justice for the McAnespie family on the murder of their son and brother. But you probably support a FG minister using his powers to coverup the murder of a GAA member. Telling
Quote from: dublin7 on December 31, 2020, 11:29:03 AM
Both funerals breached all social distancing guidelines, but only one was arranged by a political party.
Golfgate has far more in common with the Bobby Storey funeral than the Garda funeral. Both these events were arranged and attended in breach of well published guidelines by politicians themselves
And who was the other arranged by? The state, the Gardai? Yet the southern media who went to town on a funeral that breached Covid regulations in another jurisdiction hush-hushed the regulations blatantly breached by government officials and the state police force. Bizarre really.
So we've (as predicted) went for the tit for tat approach, debating at its lowest level...
Standard
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 12:07:38 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 31, 2020, 11:29:03 AM
Both funerals breached all social distancing guidelines, but only one was arranged by a political party.
Golfgate has far more in common with the Bobby Storey funeral than the Garda funeral. Both these events were arranged and attended in breach of well published guidelines by politicians themselves
Politicians involved in Golfgate were held to account and resigned/forced to resign, there was zero accountability for the Storey funeral
SF play by different rules, they don't do accountability, they do untouchability and shameless brazening it out
That's why SF are rightly compared to Trump and the US Republicans, Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson and the Tories would be another accurate comparison in terms of accountability, or lack of it
Yet Leo Varadkar and Helen McEntee didn't go when they were exposed on corruption and cronyism
Bizarre how a guy who claims to be left wing votes for parties who prop up centre right and far right parties in Government and enact their policies.
You are a morally very hollow and empty person. In fact your rhetoric is that of far right political commentators like Ruth Dudley Edwards and Kevin Myers. You are arguably more Trumpist than Trump himself.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2020, 12:53:37 PM
So we've (as predicted) went for the tit for tat approach, debating at its lowest level...
Standard
Balance I like to call.
You have the usual free state bigots who like to pontificate and moralise but are completely unable to stand behind it when it comes to have to criticise their own.
Quote from: Angelo on December 31, 2020, 12:55:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2020, 12:53:37 PM
So we've (as predicted) went for the tit for tat approach, debating at its lowest level...
Standard
Balance I like to call.
You have the usual free state bigots who like to pontificate and moralise but are completely unable to stand behind it when it comes to have to criticise their own.
If you're not wrong, and Sid's not wrong then how's that balance?
Having 10 large chips on each shoulder is a form of balance I suppose
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2020, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 31, 2020, 12:55:22 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 31, 2020, 12:53:37 PM
So we've (as predicted) went for the tit for tat approach, debating at its lowest level...
Standard
Balance I like to call.
You have the usual free state bigots who like to pontificate and moralise but are completely unable to stand behind it when it comes to have to criticise their own.
If you're not wrong, and Sid's not wrong then how's that balance?
Balance is where you have free staters like Sid getting up on his pulpit to condemn the Provo campaign while defending the Old IRA going round killing civilians in Cork because they were Protestants.
People should be held to account on their views and Sid, dublin7 and rossfan are complete and utter hypocrites when you delve behind their faux outrage so that is why balance is important.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 10:10:57 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 30, 2020, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: dublin7 on December 30, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
DUP don't like SF and SF don't the DUP. SF play the Republican card to get votes and the DUP play the unionist card. Until a viable option to either party becomes a realistic voting option you'll have a government made up of SF/DUP. What you get then is the current stormont executive were both parties in gov disagree on practically everything and nothing gets done or achieves
Yeah, pity we didn't have Fianna Fail and Fine Gael to vote for. One who ruined the f**king country a few years back and should never be allowed near the levers of power in a million years, the other a shower of Blueshirt West Brit bastards who would happily piss on the poor... And both as corrupt as each other.
At least they didn't murder anybody
Sinn Fein ruined Ireland to a far, far greater degree
Surprise, surprise. More Old IRA good/modern IRA bad bullshit from the bullshitters' bullshitter.
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Outpointed in a debate ;D. Self praise is not praise at all you arrogant, deluded p***k
Quote from: red hander on December 31, 2020, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Outpointed in a debate ;D. Self praise is not praise at all you arrogant, deluded p***k
One line and you proved my point completely ;D
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 31, 2020, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Outpointed in a debate ;D. Self praise is not praise at all you arrogant, deluded p***k
One line and you proved my point completely ;D
Your levels of delusion are outrageous. You can't even go one post without contradicting yourself so God knows how you expect to out debate others. Your only strategy is hysterical faux outrage and projecting your own shortcomings. The topics you are obsessed about you have no practical experiences to offer, talking out your arse on matters you neither understand or have experienced.
Quote from: Angelo on December 31, 2020, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 31, 2020, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Outpointed in a debate ;D. Self praise is not praise at all you arrogant, deluded p***k
One line and you proved my point completely ;D
Your levels of delusion are outrageous. You can't even go one post without contradicting yourself so God knows how you expect to out debate others. Your only strategy is hysterical faux outrage and projecting your own shortcomings. The topics you are obsessed about you have no practical experiences to offer, talking out your arse on matters you neither understand or have experienced.
What practical experiences have you got to offer?
Fantasy bombings from your sofa? ;D
Expertise... That should be a good one to prove
Put them up Sid/Angelo
Let's measure .... sizes
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 31, 2020, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 31, 2020, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Outpointed in a debate ;D. Self praise is not praise at all you arrogant, deluded p***k
One line and you proved my point completely ;D
Your levels of delusion are outrageous. You can't even go one post without contradicting yourself so God knows how you expect to out debate others. Your only strategy is hysterical faux outrage and projecting your own shortcomings. The topics you are obsessed about you have no practical experiences to offer, talking out your arse on matters you neither understand or have experienced.
What practical experiences have you got to offer?
Fantasy bombings from your sofa? ;D
I've life experiences of the O6.
You have none of life in America or the O6 but you will spout your hysterical faux outrage while contradicting yourself at the same time.
I will continue to challenge you not to contradict yourself and you will continue to fail. Keep projecting all your inadequacies on others.
If someone continually criticises the Storey funeral on the premise of covid regs being broken but does not criticise other massive funerals, then their issue is not with covid regulations being broken
Quote from: Angelo on December 31, 2020, 04:44:01 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: Angelo on December 31, 2020, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: red hander on December 31, 2020, 03:13:53 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 02:40:53 PM
Shinners sure hate their stagnant echo chamber being disturbed
The only response from Shinners when they're outpointed in debate - which is pretty much every time - is to shout and call others names
You can see how their social media presence has evolved into a clone of Trump's
It's systematic problem within the movement, but also a systematic strategy
The trolls they have here are entirely representative of their toxic online presence
Outpointed in a debate ;D. Self praise is not praise at all you arrogant, deluded p***k
One line and you proved my point completely ;D
Your levels of delusion are outrageous. You can't even go one post without contradicting yourself so God knows how you expect to out debate others. Your only strategy is hysterical faux outrage and projecting your own shortcomings. The topics you are obsessed about you have no practical experiences to offer, talking out your arse on matters you neither understand or have experienced.
What practical experiences have you got to offer?
Fantasy bombings from your sofa? ;D
I've life experiences of the O6.
You have none of life in America or the O6 but you will spout your hysterical faux outrage while contradicting yourself at the same time.
I will continue to challenge you not to contradict yourself and you will continue to fail. Keep projecting all your inadequacies on others.
Sitting on your hole in your room fantasising about being a RA hero is a form of life experience I suppose
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 31, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
If someone continually criticises the Storey funeral on the premise of covid regs being broken but does not criticise other massive funerals, then their issue is not with covid regulations being broken
Sinn Fein are the ones that demand purity as regards Covid and yet their leadership openly flouted the rules
Zero credibility
Their strategy is to wear others down with constant abuse, exact same as Trump's strategy
SF must take a large share of the blame for NI's disastrous Covid figures over the last few months because
they gave the example that the rules were there to broken - not followed
Anybody with a bit of shame would shut up when shown up as such hypocrites, but not Sinn Fein
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 31, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
If someone continually criticises the Storey funeral on the premise of covid regs being broken but does not criticise other massive funerals, then their issue is not with covid regulations being broken
Yip.l, big funerals, Liverpool fan celebrations, Leeds fan celebrations, some club GAA celebrations, some half baked VE Day celebrations, Dominic Cummings saga, Golfgate & plenty of other incidents - all broke & undermined the regulations.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 04:56:43 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 31, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
If someone continually criticises the Storey funeral on the premise of covid regs being broken but does not criticise other massive funerals, then their issue is not with covid regulations being broken
Sinn Fein are the ones that demand purity as regards Covid and yet their leadership openly flouted the rules
Zero credibility
Their strategy is to wear others down with constant abuse, exact same as Trump's strategy
SF must take a large share of the blame for NI's disastrous Covid figures over the last few months because they gave the example that the rules were there to broken - not followed
Anybody with a bit of shame would shut up when shown up as such hypocrites, but not Sinn Fein
SF this.
SF that.
SF are the largest political party on this island by some distance and the more crackpots like you rail against them with their intolerance the bigger they grow.
The kind of Trumpism attack behaviour you engage only serves to benefit SF as people can see the agenda clear as day.
Less than 3 days and shes at 3 pages already. Boys a dear.
Quote from: Angelo on January 01, 2021, 12:14:55 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 31, 2020, 04:56:43 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on December 31, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
If someone continually criticises the Storey funeral on the premise of covid regs being broken but does not criticise other massive funerals, then their issue is not with covid regulations being broken
Sinn Fein are the ones that demand purity as regards Covid and yet their leadership openly flouted the rules
Zero credibility
Their strategy is to wear others down with constant abuse, exact same as Trump's strategy
SF must take a large share of the blame for NI's disastrous Covid figures over the last few months because they gave the example that the rules were there to broken - not followed
Anybody with a bit of shame would shut up when shown up as such hypocrites, but not Sinn Fein
SF this.
SF that.
SF are the largest political party on this island by some distance and the more crackpots like you rail against them with their intolerance the bigger they grow.
The kind of Trumpism attack behaviour you engage only serves to benefit SF as people can see the agenda clear as day.
That sort of argument is not going to work.
21% nationalist, 26% unionist?????
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40198167.html
Some good reading in that
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
OWC
Not a Taig in plain sight.
Very reflective and inclusive!
Who or what commission that ensemble?
Quote from: Silver hill on January 06, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
OWC
Not a Taig in plain sight.
Very reflective and inclusive!
Who or what commission that ensemble?
Was thinking the same.
God, I feel so lucky to be living in the sectarian statelet.
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
What a crock of steaming shite.
The wee token gesture of Strabane was quickly outdone by Londonderry's walls!
Quote from: TwoUpTwoDown on January 06, 2021, 08:26:54 PM
The wee token gesture of Strabane was quickly outdone by Londonderry's walls!
They only included Strabane because it 'rhymes' with 'Northern Ireland'... apparently :o
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
f**k I don't think I've cringed that much in a while!
Quote from: BennyCake on January 06, 2021, 05:52:43 PM
Quote from: Silver hill on January 06, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
OWC
Not a Taig in plain sight.
Very reflective and inclusive!
Who or what commission that ensemble?
Was thinking the same.
God, I feel so lucky to be living in the sectarian statelet.
Why didn't Rory get a mention. He must not have let them.
Quote from: Capt Pat on January 06, 2021, 10:34:55 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 06, 2021, 05:52:43 PM
Quote from: Silver hill on January 06, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
OWC
Not a Taig in plain sight.
Very reflective and inclusive!
Who or what commission that ensemble?
Was thinking the same.
God, I feel so lucky to be living in the sectarian statelet.
Why didn't Rory get a mention. He must not have let them.
That will disappoint LaoisLad
Quote from: Capt Pat on January 06, 2021, 10:34:55 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on January 06, 2021, 05:52:43 PM
Quote from: Silver hill on January 06, 2021, 05:15:39 PM
Quote from: Orior on January 06, 2021, 04:54:16 PM
Well, whaddya think of this little ditty?
https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo (https://youtu.be/cLPcL_we0Oo)
OWC
Not a Taig in plain sight.
Very reflective and inclusive!
Who or what commission that ensemble?
Was thinking the same.
God, I feel so lucky to be living in the sectarian statelet.
Why didn't Rory get a mention. He must not have let them.
And they had Alex Higgins, but not Dennis Taylor.
I am "the state that would not allow Seamus Heaney to be called Seamus on the PS roll book, it had to be 'James' Heaney".
I am "the state" that would not allow my mother to register my sister as Mairead. She had to be officially registered as Margaret; as Mairead was 'too Irish'.
I am not worthy of any celebration.
Quote from: restorepride on January 07, 2021, 12:23:39 AM
I am "the state that would not allow Seamus Heaney to be called Seamus on the PS roll book, it had to be 'James' Heaney".
I am "the state" that would not allow my mother to register my sister as Mairead. She had to be officially registered as Margaret; as Mairead was 'too Irish'.
I am not worthy of any celebration.
In reality, it will be a wake. Their failed, putrid, tuppenny hapenny statelet is in its death throes, the people they claim loyalty to in their pathetic, clawing Stockholm Syndrome way have shafted them with the Irish Sea border. No doubt a few innocent Fenians will be butchered as they express their anger and hate the way they have always done, and long before 1921, but they can't turn the tide now. f**k em.
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Thought they might have included the time that the All-Ireland final was an all british affair, lol
It's like something out of the 1950s.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Remember that there is a dissident irish dancing group !
One group has transfer rules !
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Remember that there is a dissident irish dancing group !
One group has transfer rules !
Is this the well documented battle between Feis?? and Festival groups, one with tan, wigs and the makeup plastered all over them??
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Remember that there is a dissident irish dancing group !
One group has transfer rules !
Is this the well documented battle between Feis?? and Festival groups, one with tan, wigs and the makeup plastered all over them??
Aye , the festival dancing is like those in that video link. More simple attire etc.The Commission( feis) group have lost the run of themselves .
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 07:00:07 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Remember that there is a dissident irish dancing group !
One group has transfer rules !
Is this the well documented battle between Feis?? and Festival groups, one with tan, wigs and the makeup plastered all over them??
Aye , the festival dancing is like those in that video link. More simple attire etc.The Commission( feis) group have lost the run of themselves .
Mate's wee girl changed teams?? troops?? army?? whatever it's called and she wasn't allowed to dance in competition for a certain time period. Then when she was dancing the judge was a former dancer, from her former team, gave her shit marks. Tears, wigs, tan, hair, threats, complete row, etc.
Quote from: trailer on January 08, 2021, 01:14:18 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 07:00:07 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Remember that there is a dissident irish dancing group !
One group has transfer rules !
Is this the well documented battle between Feis?? and Festival groups, one with tan, wigs and the makeup plastered all over them??
Aye , the festival dancing is like those in that video link. More simple attire etc.The Commission( feis) group have lost the run of themselves .
Mate's wee girl changed teams?? troops?? army?? whatever it's called and she wasn't allowed to dance in competition for a certain time period. Then when she was dancing the judge was a former dancer, from her former team, gave her shit marks. Tears, wigs, tan, hair, threats, complete row, etc.
Wigs on the green?
Quote from: trailer on January 08, 2021, 01:14:18 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 07:00:07 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 02:30:55 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 07, 2021, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 07, 2021, 10:05:40 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 07, 2021, 09:15:01 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2021, 08:31:06 AM
I'm surprised irish dancing made it in there at all. Tyrone / Derry / Down lifting sam notably missing and not one gaelic game about the place. Also noticeable that they show irish dancing which is graceful, elegant with some young innocent people performing to band parades with some boys banging their drums with significant venom - thought it summed up differences in cultures very aptly.
Irish dancing = British Gymnastics. Systematic mental abuse of young girls by parents and so called "teachers". Therefore it would fit in nicely with this mini twelfth.
Come on trailer, tell us what you really think about Irish Dancing??
Remember that there is a dissident irish dancing group !
One group has transfer rules !
Is this the well documented battle between Feis?? and Festival groups, one with tan, wigs and the makeup plastered all over them??
Aye , the festival dancing is like those in that video link. More simple attire etc.The Commission( feis) group have lost the run of themselves .
Mate's wee girl changed teams?? troops?? army?? whatever it's called and she wasn't allowed to dance in competition for a certain time period. Then when she was dancing the judge was a former dancer, from her former team, gave her shit marks. Tears, wigs, tan, hair, threats, complete row, etc.
Where's Fergal Logan when you really need him?
I see the Unionist meltdown regarding the Irish language has gone into overdrive. They think they're getting bilingual road signs up the shankill...
Quote from: general_lee on January 08, 2021, 06:47:42 PM
I see the Unionist meltdown regarding the Irish language has gone into overdrive. They think they're getting bilingual road signs up the shankill...
Radio ulster there doing a bit on this Irish language on street signs story.
Apparently there's provision for Chinese and ulster Scots in the same legislation. So they had a Chinese lad and an ulster Scots "professor" on to translate some streets the presenters had picked out.
They were 100% trolling the ulster Scots lad.
The Chinese lad had like proper Chinese translations for everything, but the ulster Scots lad was like well Onslow Parade would just translate to... Onslow Waik. Presenters sniggering away at all this. They were at the craic.
The problem here isnt the signs, its how the bloody things cost £1000 each!! Someone in the process is taking the piss.
https://www.allstarcard.co.uk/news-insights/fuel-and-fleet/fleet-news/how-much-is-spent-on-signage-in-the-uk/
A quick google brings this up. £1k per sign seems too much and £568 staff costs is taking the piss alright
Quote from: hardstation on January 08, 2021, 07:15:31 PM
I support Irish language street signs but, as I mentioned before on here, how it costs £1000 a sign is beyond me. Here's the breakdown on costs the BBC put up in October:
£248 on signage
£273 on printing/postage
£568 staff costs
They may go a bit further persuading the sceptics if they weren't taking the piss.
That reminds me of Del Boy's deal with Mike the barman, to re-decorate the Nags Head.
Quote from: hardstation on January 08, 2021, 07:15:31 PM
I support Irish language street signs but, as I mentioned before on here, how it costs £1000 a sign is beyond me. Here's the breakdown on costs the BBC put up in October:
£248 on signage
£273 on printing/postage
£568 staff costs
They may go a bit further persuading the sceptics if they weren't taking the piss.
How much could you do it for?