Doire v Mhuineacháin 24/5/09

[JMohan]

I agree with most of that - but that is not solved with more rules.

Introduce a video rep with mike link up if the ref can't see all - but any change needs to be tailored to the problem at hand. DOn't get me wrong. I want to see better football than we had yesterday, but I don't want a huge mess made because we aren't using the rules we have, the rules aren't the problem. Implementing them is.

Look at this first -
- Video Ref
- Video live ref in stand
- Citing options
- Additional linesmen - two per side, each does a half each so when no ball, watching off the ball stuff

Look at these things that don't interfere with the game directly before sin bins.

[screenmachine]

What a crying session this thread has turned into?  Mullan should get banned but lets be honest about the thing, he didn't try to end his career or seriously injure him.  By some of the reaction on here you'd nearly think he pulled a knife out of his sock and stabbed the fcuk out of him!  He'll get a suspension, get over it!

Also I can't really understand where all the praise for James Kielt is coming from.  Granted, he kicked two awesome points but he was in acres of space for both of them and offered nothing else through the whole game.  Thought Mark Lynch was quiet enough when he cam on too, I actually forgot he had come on until he hit a free!!

Don't think Doc should get anything extra as we niggly things like that go on in every game and once again there was no serious injury caused or even attempted for that matter.

Shit game.  Good result, all that matters really.

Kilelts points weren't some easy tap over score 25 yards out, in front of goal in some club league game. he scored two absolutely massive points from distance to DRAW the game and the other to put us ONE up in one of the most intense and intimidating enviroments he will ever face. Have you any understanding of how he was involved in in lifting Derrys game at that stage to go for the win.

The fact of the matter is Max that Kielt could have came on tens mins into the second half and offered the same amount as he did yesterday.  I have stated that both his points were awesome and he also was in a lot of space for both of them, I think this is an accurate enough account?  What did Kielt offer in the first half at all and in the second half outside of his two scores?

SM it seems to me like you have some sort of vendeta against James Kielt, somehow out of all the positives that came out of yesterdays game you seem to continue your arguement about how Kielt contributed very little. He scored 2 quality and very crucial points and lets not forget it was his 1st senior county championship appearance. In my book thats not a bad days work.
But hey maybe you know more about the game than the rest of us

I've no vendetta (more of an opinion tbh) at all Mr Mr.  I've no doubt that James Kielt is a quality footballer and has a massive future in the county setup.  It's when papers and pundits, etc. start claiming that he won the game for Derry and had a great game is what I have an issue with.  I just feel that he didnt offer anything else outside of the two points and could perhaps have been used as an impact sub in the second half when the game was starting to open up a bit and he would get the space he needs to score.  

[Fuzzman]

My first Ulster final was 1987 in which Monaghan beat Tyrone and I've never liked them since.

They've had some great players over the years but I think they know themselves that maybe like Fermanagh they have to play a certain "System" to prevent other teams from playing to their strengths which in turn usually makes for a very dour negative battle. This often gets the other team frustrated and sometimes leads to players getting sent off that don't like to be bullied.

Quite a few teams, including Derry in Omagh on 2006 & Dublin in the league in the battle of Omagh played a rather negative brand of defensive football that gets so many men behind the ball and systematically fouls players earlier to stop momentmum building.
We know Tyrone are no angels themselves but in my book when one team wants to play football and the other team bends the rules as far as the ref will let them then the game will look ugly.
People are slow to blame refs & say it is a hard job, which it is. But of course teams are much more tactically aware nowadays and so it makes sense to have 2 men around the other teams marksman. Makes sense to play a sweeper to stop him getting the ball. But if Refs would be strong enuf from the start & lay down the law then players would not test what they can get away with.

I can't see why Refs dont stop a match when he gets a feel for the rough tactics & call over the captains or even managers and warn them there & then that there will be multiple sendings off unless there is a change of tactics.
Fergal Doherty is a vital player for Derry & would say he was targeted for some special attention & he was silly to react to it. But had the ref been stronger & had better communication with the linesmen etc then Doherty wouldn't have had to take the law into his own hands.

Refs have a job to enforce the rules and not make exceptions to just keep the match flowing. Refs like McEnaney are respected cos he makes the big calls and doesn't shirk his duties. Yes he gets plenty wrong and probably will next Sunday but at least players know not to risk it with him.

Do IC refs have a meeting each week to review their performance & get pointers on how to improve. There is too much of what  Martin McHugh said where
"Ach I wouldn't be too sore on him, sure he's a neighbour of ours down the road and a nicer man you've never met"

On the Kielt note. Yes he was talked up a lot earlier this season but he's still very young and new to this level so I'd say he'll do OK when he get a year to settle in.
2 great points on yer debut isn't bad against such a defensive side as Monaghan.

[Zulu]

Look at this first -
- Video Ref
- Video live ref in stand
- Citing options
- Additional linesmen - two per side, each does a half each so when no ball, watching off the ball stuff

Look at these things that don't interfere with the game directly before sin bins.

But that doesn't tackle the problem and will only serve to slow up the game. Citing and video refs are all well and good but they are only for off the ball stuff and we have that anyway as the CCC will look at some of the off the ball stuff this week. What we need is a sanction that makes players more cautious in the tackle and if they go overboard they get severly punished but not overly so. All your suggestions won't address persistant or cynical fouling. As I see it there are a number of reasons that we get foul fests like the last two weeks;

1. No real sanction for persistant or cynical fouls

2. Poor tackling technique, which won't change because of point 1.

3. Poor refs

4. Lack of an advantage rule or a willingness to implement it.

As far as I can see, if we address point 1 than we will improve all areas to some degree.


By the way, this thread should be a clear warning to those who disagreed with the new rules, we had two of the best teams in the country playing yesterday and there is hardly any talk about football today. Football is a magnificent game and should be capable of producing cracking games more often than not, that fact that it doesn't tells me all I need to know.

[Schkite]

What's the story with this, is this the Darren Hughes incident?

Monaghan player punched by fan - claim
25 May 2009

The Ulster Council is set to investigate allegations that a Monaghan player was struck by a fan during yesterday's ill-tempered Ulster SFC clash at Celtic Park.

The provincial body will review a video of the game in an attempt to identify the spectator who allegedly threw a punch at the player. The incident took place on the Gasworks side of the redeveloped ground midway through the second half.

Derry won a bruising and foul-ridden encounter by 1-10 to 0-10, having lost to Monaghan in each of the past two years.

Monaghan's All-Star forward Tommy Freeman was at the centre of a similar incident early last year when he was head-butted by a Dublin backroom team member after a spiteful National League game in Parnell Park.

[JMohan]

Look at this first -
- Video Ref
- Video live ref in stand
- Citing options
- Additional linesmen - two per side, each does a half each so when no ball, watching off the ball stuff

Look at these things that don't interfere with the game directly before sin bins.

But that doesn't tackle the problem and will only serve to slow up the game. Citing and video refs are all well and good but they are only for off the ball stuff and we have that anyway as the CCC will look at some of the off the ball stuff this week. What we need is a sanction that makes players more cautious in the tackle and if they go overboard they get severly punished but not overly so. All your suggestions won't address persistant or cynical fouling. As I see it there are a number of reasons that we get foul fests like the last two weeks;

1. No real sanction for persistant or cynical fouls

2. Poor tackling technique, which won't change because of point 1.

3. Poor refs

4. Lack of an advantage rule or a willingness to implement it.

As far as I can see, if we address point 1 than we will improve all areas to some degree.


By the way, this thread should be a clear warning to those who disagreed with the new rules, we had two of the best teams in the country playing yesterday and there is hardly any talk about football today. Football is a magnificent game and should be capable of producing cracking games more often than not, that fact that it doesn't tells me all I need to know.

I agree 1 is an issue - but to me that enforcement of rules.

A persisitant foul is something like pulling a jersey? yes?

So if it's seen and not punished ONLY then can it be called persistant.

[tyronefan]

If you were to believe the Derry posters on here you would think that Derry are angels and the Monaghan team make them play dirty yesterday

Derry are more than capable of playing dirty and cynical football which they have proven on more than one occasion

Both teams were guilty yesterday and for the Derry ones to come on and place all the blame on the monaghan players bar one or two fouls is a bit rich

[unforgiven]

What's the story with this, is this the Darren Hughes incident?

Monaghan player punched by fan - claim
25 May 2009

The Ulster Council is set to investigate allegations that a Monaghan player was struck by a fan during yesterday's ill-tempered Ulster SFC clash at Celtic Park.

The provincial body will review a video of the game in an attempt to identify the spectator who allegedly threw a punch at the player. The incident took place on the Gasworks side of the redeveloped ground midway through the second half.

Derry won a bruising and foul-ridden encounter by 1-10 to 0-10, having lost to Monaghan in each of the past two years.

Monaghan's All-Star forward Tommy Freeman was at the centre of a similar incident early last year when he was head-butted by a Dublin backroom team member after a spiteful National League game in Parnell Park.

My viewing of the incident was that the ball went out of play and hopped over the fence.  Hughes came chasing the ball and deliberately pushed the spectator.  Looked like he deserved to be punched if that was the case

[Zulu]

So if it's seen and not punished ONLY then can it be called persistant.

Not sure what you mean there JM but the fact is you can make 3 or 4 fouls and face no sanction whatsoever, you keep talking about implementing the current rules but we've had them for 125 years and they have never been implemented properly. So there is clearly a problem and in fairness to refs there are so many contacts in football that it would be nigh on impossible to get anything like consistency. The new rules cleared things up for both refs and players, you knew if you tackled neck high for example you'd probably get sent off. This is exactly what we need, though I wouldn't put neck high tackles in the serious category myself, but we do need to put a sanction in for cynical fouling and persitant fouling. What about sin binning the next player who fouls once a team reaches, for example, 10 fouls? Now I'm not sure I'd support that one myself but anyone who feels that the solution is to implement the current rules is either not watching football for very long or needs to think outside the box a bit. What we've done hasn't worked, so it is time to experiment with something different, it has to be worth a go and if we did it at U21 and minor first and/or in the league for two years then we could make an informed opinion without having to listen to senior IC managers talking bullshit.

By the way we should seperate hurl;ing from football on this so they don't fail because hurling folk think there is nothing wrong with hurling.

[Schkite]

My viewing of the incident was that the ball went out of play and hopped over the fence.  Hughes came chasing the ball and deliberately pushed the spectator.  Looked like he deserved to be punched if that was the case

Yeah just like McManus deserved to get a knee in the balls for the "rugby tackle" 

I didn't see the incident, but if a Derry supporter was acting the bollix and holding onto the ball when we needed it back quickly, Hughes had every right to go in and force it from him. As I say I didn't see it but if he pushed him he had a reason to, he's not a dirty player and you'll notice he didn't partake in any of the bullshit on the field that's we're discussing today, I wouldn't think he'd jump into the crowd and push someone for no reason. But punching a player is wrong, I doubt Hughes deserved it if this story is true.

[DennistheMenace]

Derry are certainly no angels but then again angels wouldn't have won that match yesterday so I'm pleased enough.

We all know the way Monaghan like to play, it's not pretty nor pleasing on the eye yet it can be effective which has been seen in their rise to the top division in the league.

However Derry are without doubt a better footballing side and yesterdays performance showed that they have more strings to their bow than previous years in that we can  meet fire with fire and mix it up when required. A win is a win and it essentially that is the end all and be all for me in the first round of an Ulster Championship game against anyone.

[JMohan]

So if it's seen and not punished ONLY then can it be called persistant.

Not sure what you mean there JM but the fact is you can make 3 or 4 fouls and face no sanction whatsoever, you keep talking about implementing the current rules but we've had them for 125 years and they have never been implemented properly. So there is clearly a problem and in fairness to refs there are so many contacts in football that it would be nigh on impossible to get anything like consistency. The new rules cleared things up for both refs and players, you knew if you tackled neck high for example you'd probably get sent off. This is exactly what we need, though I wouldn't put neck high tackles in the serious category myself, but we do need to put a sanction in for cynical fouling and persitant fouling. What about sin binning the next player who fouls once a team reaches, for example, 10 fouls? Now I'm not sure I'd support that one myself but anyone who feels that the solution is to implement the current rules is either not watching football for very long or needs to think outside the box a bit. What we've done hasn't worked, so it is time to experiment with something different, it has to be worth a go and if we did it at U21 and minor first and/or in the league for two years then we could make an informed opinion without having to listen to senior IC managers talking bullshit.

By the way we should seperate hurl;ing from football on this so they don't fail because hurling folk think there is nothing wrong with hurling.

What I mean is - if a guy pulls a jersey - tick him
If a guys pulls it twice YC him
If it's done 3 times - Red

This isn't done.
Ref's back down from the ultimate sanction for pulling a jersey most often if the guy has been booked already.

People will say you can't red card for pulling a jersey - but after 3 occasions of persistant fouling then you have to!
That's what you call enforcing the rules we have IMO.

[whiskeysteve]

If you were to believe the Derry posters on here you would think that Derry are angels and the Monaghan team make them play dirty yesterday

Derry are more than capable of playing dirty and cynical football which they have proven on more than one occasion

Both teams were guilty yesterday and for the Derry ones to come on and place all the blame on the monaghan players bar one or two fouls is a bit rich

Balls

We definitely do not have a track record of displays like yesterday. yesterday and tyrone 06' are the two real cynical battles we've been involved in in the past few years. Derry rarely play cynical.

The simple fact of the matter is that the game would never have been like that had we been playing another team. A combo of recent history, Monaghans approach to the game and Derrys approach to the game set off a dogged affair.

Its also particularly rich to hear Indiana gallop in on his high horse. Dublin have been up to much worse shite with Monaghan and Tyrone in the past few years.

Bear in mind those games had full scale brawls and a Dublin stats man sinking the head into Freeman, amongst other ugly scenes. Kinda de-values your moral indignation on here.

Thank god we won a good old scrap. I'm very happy after yesterday.

[Maximus Marillius]

I see Peter canavan is the only pundit to call this game before it was played. In his coloumn he said it was going to be physical and nasty. How come the ref didn't know it?

[SidelineKick]

I'm very glad we beat Monaghan.  Their cynical tactics (often mistaken for passion) didn't win through yesterday.  Some of our boys were involved in disgraceful antics too but no one can argue that Derry are normally that type of team.  Their actions were reactive.  For supposedly hard men Monaghan did an awful lot of lying down yesterday and which is what got Doc sent off.  There will be more to the Mullan incident and I would say what he did was extremely dangerous and stupid.  No need for it at all.  I got great satisfaction from beating an arrogant Monaghan team.  Rory Woods would have been red carded about 5 times yest going by the experimental rules. He was the 3rd man in on alot of occasions and its dicks like this that can start a proper row.  Used to have respect for Monaghan but I have none now.  As I said before you cannot mistake their dirty, cynical approach to a match for passion.

Looking forward to the Tyrone/Armagh game now.