China Coronavirus

[sid waddell]

Free State Active Cases - circa 25k
ICU admitted - 31
0.12% of cases in ICU

O6 Active Cases - circa 24k
ICU admitted 30
0.12% of cases in ICU

If those stats stabilise or decrease, is it really worth the negative consequences of lockdown and restrictions that a lot of posters seem to completely ignore? Is it worth an increase in domestic violence, potential suicides, job losses, business closures and other societal issues which are caused?

If those figures are correct, no, it's not worth the consequences.

That's like quoting current road deaths statistics to justify abolishing seat belts and legalising drink driving

56 people were killed on NI roads in 2019

But if you abolished seat belts and legalised drink driving you'd get a hell of a lot more people killed

[Angelo]

Free State Active Cases - circa 25k
ICU admitted - 31
0.12% of cases in ICU

O6 Active Cases - circa 24k
ICU admitted 30
0.12% of cases in ICU

If those stats stabilise or decrease, is it really worth the negative consequences of lockdown and restrictions that a lot of posters seem to completely ignore? Is it worth an increase in domestic violence, potential suicides, job losses, business closures and other societal issues which are caused?

If those figures are correct, no, it's not worth the consequences.

That's like quoting current road deaths statistics to justify abolishing seat belts and legalising drink driving

56 people were killed on NI roads in 2019

But if you abolished seat belts and legalised drink driving you'd get a hell of a lot more people killed

You've got tunnel vision on Covid. What about the detrimental consequences of lockdowns?

If you banned people from driving, reduced speed limits to 20mph, only allowed 1,000 vehicles on our roads at any one time, you'd also have a lot less people killed on the roads but what would be the consequences of that?

[armaghniac]

If you banned people from driving, reduced speed limits to 20mph, only allowed 1,000 vehicles on our roads at any one time, you'd also have a lot less people killed on the roads but what would be the consequences of that?

Driving is the perfect example, it has proved possible to reduce road fatalities to one tenth, because people wised up, not least because of enforcement, but also social pressure etc. So there is no need for drastic measures. If people wised up then there would be no need for excessive Covid restrictions either.

[Rossfan]

The more people who get Covid = more cases requiring Hospitalisation = less beds for cancer, heart patients, car accidents etc.
The more Covid cases in Hospital = more Covid cases in ICU = less ICU beds for cancer etc.

Blathering (truthfully but we are where we are) about lack of investment in health services down the years is a bit like looking for directions and being told
"I wouldn't be starting from here if I was you"

Remember it's down to YOU!

[GetOverTheBar]

The more people who get Covid = more cases requiring Hospitalisation = less beds for cancer, heart patients, car accidents etc.
The more Covid cases in Hospital = more Covid cases in ICU = less ICU beds for cancer etc.

Blathering (truthfully but we are where we are) about lack of investment in health services down the years is a bit like looking for directions and being told
"I wouldn't be starting from here if I was you"

Remember it's down to YOU!

Fair enough point, but I would still argue if the NHS (for myself up here) was run right, there wouldn't be half the need for the restrictions now in place.

It's like that caper of clapping for the Nurses etc at the start, everybody and their granny knew they would never get a pay rise, now they know that and have absolutely no motivation whatsoever (from the few I know personally). Would we not have been safer investing money into the NHS/Staff instead of ridiculous notions like "Eat out to help out" (which was arguably the biggest fiasco, considering these people were first closed....again).

Considering a large part of the population now, so to speak, are washing their hands of Covid. Looks like we are destined for another few goes on the merrygoround.

[johnnycool]

Going really simple on this one, the ICU bed situation is not really the result of a Covid problem, it's cut upon cut upon cut to the NHS over many years / decades. Nobody was prepared for something like this I suppose.

The simple answer is create more ICU units, is it not? But with regards to how long that would take / staff. I have no idea.

As previously pointed out, the Chinese threw a hospital up in days. It can be done, if they want to. There is still a host of Cuban doctors and nurses going around the world helping out in the hot spots, these people are there if they are truly wanted.

Sure we'll get JCB and McClaren to rattle up a few ventilators in their spare time.

The reality is there's X number of ICU beds in the here and now and it'll take years for specialist doctors and nurses to be trained up to be able to function in that environment. It normally takes one specialist ICU nurse per bed, 24 hours a day let alone the number of specialist doctors in there as well.

So, yes the NHS has been underfunded for years and in the case of the wee six badly mismanaged for decades and wee Robin isn't going to be able to solve that anytime soon so what can he do but try and mitigate the losses and body count as best he can.
Yes, the treatments seem to have improved but we're still seeing the ICU's filling up rather quickly in the last number of days and with the lag in this disease that trend will in all likelihood increase for the next week or so.

It's far from ideal, but are you prepared to sacrifice your vulnerable family members to keep the pubs open?

[imtommygunn]

Remember it's down to YOU!

This is a gross over simplification of things.

Is it down to you that loads of young adults have been forced into university halls of residence?

What about people who have suffered it through school?

What about people who have no sick pay and no money so are scared to not go to work?

There are so many more factors to this than some people are "a bit stupid".

[Angelo]

If you banned people from driving, reduced speed limits to 20mph, only allowed 1,000 vehicles on our roads at any one time, you'd also have a lot less people killed on the roads but what would be the consequences of that?

Driving is the perfect example, it has proved possible to reduce road fatalities to one tenth, because people wised up, not least because of enforcement, but also social pressure etc. So there is no need for drastic measures. If people wised up then there would be no need for excessive Covid restrictions either.

Have people wised up or is it just that cars are safer now, are regularly tested and deemed roadworthy, road networks have been vastly improved etc?

[Angelo]

The more people who get Covid = more cases requiring Hospitalisation = less beds for cancer, heart patients, car accidents etc.
The more Covid cases in Hospital = more Covid cases in ICU = less ICU beds for cancer etc.

Blathering (truthfully but we are where we are) about lack of investment in health services down the years is a bit like looking for directions and being told
"I wouldn't be starting from here if I was you"

Remember it's down to YOU!

More Covid tunnel vision.

What about lockdowns and their detrimental impacts, why don't they come under your lens? We all complied with a first lockdown to bring cases down, we did that to buy governments time to put in places facilities, procedures and mechanisms to deal with Covid. They failed and are now trying to pin that failure back on the people.

Why don't they show some leadership like the Slovaks are now doing and actually tried to tackle Covid in a forward thinking manner?

[GetOverTheBar]

Going really simple on this one, the ICU bed situation is not really the result of a Covid problem, it's cut upon cut upon cut to the NHS over many years / decades. Nobody was prepared for something like this I suppose.

The simple answer is create more ICU units, is it not? But with regards to how long that would take / staff. I have no idea.

As previously pointed out, the Chinese threw a hospital up in days. It can be done, if they want to. There is still a host of Cuban doctors and nurses going around the world helping out in the hot spots, these people are there if they are truly wanted.

Sure we'll get JCB and McClaren to rattle up a few ventilators in their spare time.

The reality is there's X number of ICU beds in the here and now and it'll take years for specialist doctors and nurses to be trained up to be able to function in that environment. It normally takes one specialist ICU nurse per bed, 24 hours a day let alone the number of specialist doctors in there as well.

So, yes the NHS has been underfunded for years and in the case of the wee six badly mismanaged for decades and wee Robin isn't going to be able to solve that anytime soon so what can he do but try and mitigate the losses and body count as best he can.
Yes, the treatments seem to have improved but we're still seeing the ICU's filling up rather quickly in the last number of days and with the lag in this disease that trend will in all likelihood increase for the next week or so.

It's far from ideal, but are you prepared to sacrifice your vulnerable family members to keep the pubs open?

Christ, if it was just the bars spread this thing it would have been eradicated in April. Come on.

[armaghniac]

Have people wised up or is it just that cars are safer now, are regularly tested and deemed roadworthy, road networks have been vastly improved etc?

Both, although most roads having changed that much, but the accidents on them are still less. Covid too can be mitigated if shops have PVC screens, if people wear masks, if they have better ventilation etc.

[Angelo]

Going really simple on this one, the ICU bed situation is not really the result of a Covid problem, it's cut upon cut upon cut to the NHS over many years / decades. Nobody was prepared for something like this I suppose.

The simple answer is create more ICU units, is it not? But with regards to how long that would take / staff. I have no idea.

As previously pointed out, the Chinese threw a hospital up in days. It can be done, if they want to. There is still a host of Cuban doctors and nurses going around the world helping out in the hot spots, these people are there if they are truly wanted.

Sure we'll get JCB and McClaren to rattle up a few ventilators in their spare time.

The reality is there's X number of ICU beds in the here and now and it'll take years for specialist doctors and nurses to be trained up to be able to function in that environment. It normally takes one specialist ICU nurse per bed, 24 hours a day let alone the number of specialist doctors in there as well.

So, yes the NHS has been underfunded for years and in the case of the wee six badly mismanaged for decades and wee Robin isn't going to be able to solve that anytime soon so what can he do but try and mitigate the losses and body count as best he can.
Yes, the treatments seem to have improved but we're still seeing the ICU's filling up rather quickly in the last number of days and with the lag in this disease that trend will in all likelihood increase for the next week or so.

It's far from ideal, but are you prepared to sacrifice your vulnerable family members to keep the pubs open?

This sort of bullshit "to keep the pubs open".

It's not about pubs, what about elderly people who live alone who now live their last few years of their lives in fear, isolation, afraid to open the door. People whose only real social outlet might have been mass on a Sunday morning or a few pints on Fri/Sat night or a bingo night etc? What sort of quality of life is that for them? What about all the youths who should be living life carefree as every generation before them was able to at that generation? What about people who lose their jobs and livelihoods? What about other services and supports for the vulnerable in our society which have been cut and stopped as a result of Covid tunnel vision. Recovering addicts and the likes who no longer have their support systems in place, people with mental health problems who have their support systems interfered with, people with physical and mental disabilities who no longer can get the support and treatment they would in normal circumstances?

The negative impacts of lockdowns and restrictions have absolutely enormous far-reaching consequences for the whole population so at which point are we actually going to look at Covid and say the extent at which we have become consumed by trying to fight it has been counter-productive?

[Angelo]

Have people wised up or is it just that cars are safer now, are regularly tested and deemed roadworthy, road networks have been vastly improved etc?

Both, although most roads having changed that much, but the accidents on them are still less. Covid too can be mitigated if shops have PVC screens, if people wear masks, if they have better ventilation etc.

No problem with those measures but lockdowns and restrictions have severe far-reaching negative consequences which seem to be brushed aside by those advocating for such lockdowns and if the data on the second wave of Covid continues I can't see the logic in the benefits of lockdown outweighing the massive consequences of that course of action.

[Franko]

Life can be very long, short is 38, the age a very good club mate of mine that died recently. Angelo, you are full of shit and a reincarnation of the WUM's we've had on here for years

The narrative of what you said is that its ok for people who are young, fit and healthy to die providing its not from Covid?

There are huge negative consequences of lockdowns and restrictions, we saw rises in cases of domestic violence during the first lockdown, mental health issues are almost certain to become a bigger issue with it, the economic issues it brings, the threat to people's livelihoods, jobs, ability to provide for their families, the social isolation people who live alone or elderly people feel.

At what point do we focus on the above? At what point do we look at the latest data and trends being reported on covid, a plumetting fatality, rate, the underlying health conditions the vast majority of people who die from it have, the median and mean age of those who die and what their life expectancy would be.

Some of you are so entrenched into your thinking that you are completely unwilling to look at the big picture?

I could be petty like you and say that you guys are happy to see domestic violence and suicide rise because of what you are are advocating.

you have provided no alternative that does not lead to the same or similar issues, all you provided was the unrealistic hope that people adhere to the guidance which it is clear they have not and therefore will not do.

you keep repeating the same questions over and over again without saying how any alternative you are suggesting would address them.

no one is saying there are no socio-economic challenges with lockdowns, i dont think anyone wants a lockdown but in the absence of a credible alternative which you havent provided most people see it as neccessary.

how we stop the same thing happening after these restrictions/lockdown is what needs to be dentified. I dont k ow what they are though. i hope a gradual opening of the socio-economic enviroment and adherance to guidance would work but it clearly hasnt.

Neither have you.

The same negative economic and societal issues will return now during lockdown and will probably return a worse effect.

It's a trade off, the fatality of the virus has plummeted at double digit multiples. It is my view that the impacts of lockdown and excessive restrictions will have more negative consequences than what we had in place prior to this second wave on society as a whole.

There's a reason why a large group of people aren't complying now, they don't fear the virus. The first wave had resonance because we saw the images from Lombardy and Madrid, people had a genuine fear that this could shoot fit and healthy people down. The data tends to point at this risk being remote, probably as remote as the flu which we live with every single winter.

YOU proved this to be wrong YOURSELF a few days ago.  (If you want me to re-post it, I will - but it was an absolute redner moment for you, so I'm sure you remember)

The fact that you keep repeating it shows that you are either a wilful liar or dangerously stupid.

Any posts you make here should be read with this in mind.

Incorrect. The fatality rates in the 2nd wave of Covid are currently much lower in the 26 than they were in the 2017/18 seasonal flu.

It will be interesting to see how they hold up. I think it was you who was making completely unfounded claims about a novel virus that you know nothing about. I can post that up to remind people that you shouldn't be listened to.

My only claim was that it is worse than the flu.

Thankfully, you detailed out a lovely (albeit mathematically flawed) example, drawn from your own extensive knowledge on the subject matter, which proved it to be correct.

And like I said, the fact that you keep repeating this means you are either;

1. A liar
2. Thick as champ
3. Both of the above

[Angelo]

Life can be very long, short is 38, the age a very good club mate of mine that died recently. Angelo, you are full of shit and a reincarnation of the WUM's we've had on here for years

The narrative of what you said is that its ok for people who are young, fit and healthy to die providing its not from Covid?

There are huge negative consequences of lockdowns and restrictions, we saw rises in cases of domestic violence during the first lockdown, mental health issues are almost certain to become a bigger issue with it, the economic issues it brings, the threat to people's livelihoods, jobs, ability to provide for their families, the social isolation people who live alone or elderly people feel.

At what point do we focus on the above? At what point do we look at the latest data and trends being reported on covid, a plumetting fatality, rate, the underlying health conditions the vast majority of people who die from it have, the median and mean age of those who die and what their life expectancy would be.

Some of you are so entrenched into your thinking that you are completely unwilling to look at the big picture?

I could be petty like you and say that you guys are happy to see domestic violence and suicide rise because of what you are are advocating.

you have provided no alternative that does not lead to the same or similar issues, all you provided was the unrealistic hope that people adhere to the guidance which it is clear they have not and therefore will not do.

you keep repeating the same questions over and over again without saying how any alternative you are suggesting would address them.

no one is saying there are no socio-economic challenges with lockdowns, i dont think anyone wants a lockdown but in the absence of a credible alternative which you havent provided most people see it as neccessary.

how we stop the same thing happening after these restrictions/lockdown is what needs to be dentified. I dont k ow what they are though. i hope a gradual opening of the socio-economic enviroment and adherance to guidance would work but it clearly hasnt.

Neither have you.

The same negative economic and societal issues will return now during lockdown and will probably return a worse effect.

It's a trade off, the fatality of the virus has plummeted at double digit multiples. It is my view that the impacts of lockdown and excessive restrictions will have more negative consequences than what we had in place prior to this second wave on society as a whole.

There's a reason why a large group of people aren't complying now, they don't fear the virus. The first wave had resonance because we saw the images from Lombardy and Madrid, people had a genuine fear that this could shoot fit and healthy people down. The data tends to point at this risk being remote, probably as remote as the flu which we live with every single winter.

YOU proved this to be wrong YOURSELF a few days ago.  (If you want me to re-post it, I will - but it was an absolute redner moment for you, so I'm sure you remember)

The fact that you keep repeating it shows that you are either a wilful liar or dangerously stupid.

Any posts you make here should be read with this in mind.

Incorrect. The fatality rates in the 2nd wave of Covid are currently much lower in the 26 than they were in the 2017/18 seasonal flu.

It will be interesting to see how they hold up. I think it was you who was making completely unfounded claims about a novel virus that you know nothing about. I can post that up to remind people that you shouldn't be listened to.

My only claim was that it is worse than the flu.

Thankfully, you detailed out a lovely (albeit mathematically flawed) example, drawn from your own extensive knowledge on the subject matter, which proved it to be correct.

And like I said, the fact that you keep repeating this means you are either;

1. A liar
2. Thick as champ
3. Both of the above

Your claim was something you haven't the foggiest idea about.

I pointed out the data from the second wave which contradicts your idiocy. Stupidity and arrogance and dangerous bedfellows and you are a prime example of that.