Death of Brian Keenan

[magickingdom]

There is a tendency among contributors to this discussion to equate Republicanism in Ireland with Socialism. I have raised this point before and would now like to re-state the question, how valid is this equation. Many of the original founders of Sinn-Fein such as Arthur Griffiths, Kevin O Higgins, Bulmer Hobson and the O Rahilly could hardly be described as socialists. Indeed in Ecomic and Social outlook many of todays republicans would be more akin to FF than any socialist party. No Socialist Party has ever flourished in any part of Ireland, including the major connurbations. Are we then to conclude that the majority of our population are not republican. Are Brian Cowan or Enda Kenny not republican. A serious debate requires a serious definition of what constitutes repulicanism. Over to you

bertie was the last socialist and he's gone.. 
but of course you dont have to be a socialist to be a republican

[orangeman]

There is a tendency among contributors to this discussion to equate Republicanism in Ireland with Socialism. I have raised this point before and would now like to re-state the question, how valid is this equation. Many of the original founders of Sinn-Fein such as Arthur Griffiths, Kevin O Higgins, Bulmer Hobson and the O Rahilly could hardly be described as socialists. Indeed in Ecomic and Social outlook many of todays republicans would be more akin to FF than any socialist party. No Socialist Party has ever flourished in any part of Ireland, including the major connurbations. Are we then to conclude that the majority of our population are not republican. Are Brian Cowan or Enda Kenny not republican. A serious debate requires a serious definition of what constitutes repulicanism. Over to you

In light of what Zapasita was saying earlier that Brian Keenan had a vision of / for the future which it seems was justice for the nationalist people of the 6 counties, is it now time to reexamine what a republican is ?

Did it not mean someone who wanted an AI state in a republic made up of the 32 counties ?

Does it now mean that the goal has been achieved, i.e perceived justice for the nationalists ?

Can the term republican be done away with now ?

[Donagh]

There is a tendency among contributors to this discussion to equate Republicanism in Ireland with Socialism. I have raised this point before and would now like to re-state the question, how valid is this equation. Many of the original founders of Sinn-Fein such as Arthur Griffiths, Kevin O Higgins, Bulmer Hobson and the O Rahilly could hardly be described as socialists. Indeed in Ecomic and Social outlook many of todays republicans would be more akin to FF than any socialist party. No Socialist Party has ever flourished in any part of Ireland, including the major connurbations. Are we then to conclude that the majority of our population are not republican. Are Brian Cowan or Enda Kenny not republican. A serious debate requires a serious definition of what constitutes repulicanism. Over to you

Pangurban few if any you mention could even be described as republican. SF when it was founded was not a republican Party, however if you want to look for the socialist roots of Irish republicanism you need look at the influence of the United Irishmen, the Young Irelanders and the Land League.

[ONeill]

Most devout 'republicans' do not seek a republic, as mixed up as that sounds, in terms of its political connotations. Communism is not far from the ideals of some high-ranking repulican officials, much to the chagrin of our religious leaders!

[Pangurban]

I am afraid i must respectfully but profoundly disagree with you Donagh, while at the same time noting that you did not rise to the challenge of providing a definition of republicanism. While there undoubtedly were people such as Tone, Lalor, Davitt who could be described as socialist, within the three movements you referred to, there were also others such as Drennan, Davis and Parnell who by no stetch of the imagination could be described as socialists.  However  i would contend that this did not render them  any less republican. You are quite correct in stating that at its foundation Sinn-Fein was not a republican party. Nor was it a socialist party. Its ironic that the only party whose roots are truly republican and socialist, are the Irish Labour Party, despite their later going to the bad. Apart from a few brief periods eg. the period of the so called republican congress , Sinn Fein has never espoused socialism other than rhetorically when the occasion demanded. Indeed you will have to search hard to find any vestige of socialism within todays Sinn Fein, other than an occasional bout of the aforementioned rhetoric. Should SF be even described as a political party. I dont think so. As a broad umbrella movement for people who aspire to the creation of a 32 County sovereign independent Republic it has a function, But if such a Republic should ever be attained, then the people as the sovereign masters  must choose between the competing social and economic ideologies. In such a scenario as we witnessed in the past, natural realignments occur and umbrella groups disintegrate. I still await your definition

[Zapatista]

In light of what Zapasita was saying earlier that Brian Keenan had a vision of / for the future which it seems was justice for the nationalist people of the 6 counties, is it now time to reexamine what a republican is ?

Not only for the nationalist (I am not a nationalist) people of the six counties but for all the people of the six counties. As far as I am concerned Republicanism does exactly what it says on the tin. There is no need to reexamine what a republican is but there is a need to reexamine those who falsely claim to be republican.

Did it not mean someone who wanted an AI state in a republic made up of the 32 counties ?

It is widely accepted to mean that but that is not all it means. Not only should a Republican want this but if you believe in Republicanism you should promote it all over the world from Derry to Dubai. Or else it's just Nationalism.

Does it now mean that the goal has been achieved, i.e perceived justice for the nationalists ?

If that was your goal then Yes. If your goal was to achieve a Republic and a social state then No. I don't believe it was ever about Nationalism V Unionism and Brian Keenan did not believe it either. This was not a tribal war but a war against an unequal society being forceably upheld by an occupying army. It was and is/should be about the end of discrimination and sectarianism manufactured by the ruling class in order to remain the ruling class. I believe that sectarianism is now coming to an end but now the working class people of the six counties are equally being discriminated against regardless of religion and so the battle continues.

Can the term republican be done away with now ?

Why would you do away with the term? The term republican does not belong to SF or any Irish party. Or anyone for that matter.

[Donagh]

Pangurban, I'm very busy at work at the moment so I don't have the time to give your post the consideration it deserves but in brief now I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I don't mean to suggest that Irish republicanism as an ideology is 'socialist' but rather as you acknowledge many of its proponents would have had radical left wing leanings and influences. For many of us, including northern republicans, the socialist debate was effectively hedged when Connolly threw his lot in with the bourgeois nationalists in the belief that national self-determination must be achieved first before progress on social issues. That the national issue became the overriding concern for republicans and socialists is not to suggest that individuals that subscribe to any or both beliefs have abandoned socialist principles or leanings.
 
As for the modern SF Party. I know of many dedicated socialists within that Party, Eoin Ó Broin is one that springs to mind and one that I have a lot of respect for. I also know of many more within that Party who would be no more socialist than Authur Griffith, so in that respect you could say that the northern wing of it probably still resembles the broad church of beliefs that was there in 1916 but that the ideological debates are still hedged until national self-determination is achieved. How the GFA and SF's participation in the northern Administration will affect and play on those differences within that Party is anyones guess.

[orangeman]

Quote from: orangeman on May 22, 2008, 10:33:19 PM

In light of what Zapasita was saying earlier that Brian Keenan had a vision of / for the future which it seems was justice for the nationalist people of the 6 counties, is it now time to reexamine what a republican is ?

Not only for the nationalist (I am not a nationalist) people of the six counties but for all the people of the six counties. As far as I am concerned Republicanism does exactly what it says on the tin. There is no need to reexamine what a republican is but there is a need to reexamine those who falsely claim to be republican.


Good point Zapasita - can you elaborate on this point ?

Also what are the essential differences between a nationalist and a republican in your opinion ?

[Zapatista]

there is a need to reexamine those who falsely claim to be republican.


Good point Zapasita - can you elaborate on this point ?

Also what are the essential differences between a nationalist and a republican in your opinion ?

Sure. There are many people in all the partys in Ireland who claim to be Republican. They are only Republican of convenience. As the 26 countys is a Republic it is convenient to be a republican. It is less convenient if you where to live in a Monarchy while it would be easy to be a monarchist. I don't think anyone could argue that Republicanism is a necessity of democracy. If you are a Republican you should be promoting it across the world. e.g. FF say they are 'the republican party' which is fine as they are a party in a republic. However, FF do nothing to promote this type of Government in other places. If FF where true Republicans they would try to encourage stormount to employ republican politics. If their true brand of politics is republican then they would be expected to at least wish that on all Irish people but instead it does not factor in anything they do. It is akin to the Green party not promoting Green issues outside the 26 counties. The idea of the Green party is to expand on Green politics as the idea of a Republican party should be to expand republican politics.

There are many too (in particular SF) who are Nationalists who think they are republicans.Their idea is they would like a United Ireland and thats where it ends. There are many reasons for this. They have romantic ideas of an Irish nation with a tricolour and an anthem and standing proudly among other nations. Notions of a small place like Ireland taking on the might of the British and winning freedom. The idea that if you take away the Union Jack and fly the tricolour you have won self determination. There is nothing Republican about any of this unless you replace the Union Jack with a Republic. Republicanism is not nationalism. In the case of Ireland Irish Nationalism is used to promote Republicanism over British Monarchism. The two have gone hand in hand for so long they have almost merged together but the truth is they are very different.

I am not a Nationalist. I have no regard for the tricolour or the Anthem or Patriotism. I am neither proud nor ashamed to be Irish. I am a Republican. I believe in the peoples right to a republic. I do not believe any is born unto a higher command than another. I oppose Monarchism and promote Republicanism. I would be happy enough to live as a British citizen in a British Republic and I would and will promote republicanism starting in Ireland.

[Zapatista]

No Evil Genius OM was questioning me and a quote I inserted which did not belong to Brian Keenan. OM can describe him how he likes but he is trying to question me on my politlics and not that of Brian Keenan. This is fair enough and I will answer the questions but I am entilted to try to keep the thread on topic.

Do you think that the call for Irish freedom that went out to the mass Irish nationalist population, propgated by the Provos and others was really only to seek justice for the Nationalist catholic population of the 6 counties ? Do you really think that in order to achieve justice that it requried 30+ years of pain to be inflicted upon the Nationalist Irish, the Unionist Irish and the British ?

OK, then, assuming that Keenan felt that the GFA was eventually a "just" settlement - he endorsed it after all -  may we assume that he also believed that it was worth the "30+ years of pain...   ...inflicted upon the Nationalist Irish, the Unionist Irish and the British" by the Provisional movement which he led?

Assume what you want EG. I however would assume he didn't see it as a final solution as I said before I believe he had great vision. I assume he also felt like (although he played his part) he was not responsible for your cherrypicked dicription of the last 30 years. I would also assume he had a very different view of the last 30 years than you have. 

[orangeman]

there is a need to reexamine those who falsely claim to be republican.


Good point Zapasita - can you elaborate on this point ?

Also what are the essential differences between a nationalist and a republican in your opinion ?

Sure. There are many people in all the partys in Ireland who claim to be Republican. They are only Republican of convenience. As the 26 countys is a Republic it is convenient to be a republican. It is less convenient if you where to live in a Monarchy while it would be easy to be a monarchist. I don't think anyone could argue that Republicanism is a necessity of democracy. If you are a Republican you should be promoting it across the world. e.g. FF say they are 'the republican party' which is fine as they are a party in a republic. However, FF do nothing to promote this type of Government in other places. If FF where true Republicans they would try to encourage stormount to employ republican politics. If their true brand of politics is republican then they would be expected to at least wish that on all Irish people but instead it does not factor in anything they do. It is akin to the Green party not promoting Green issues outside the 26 counties. The idea of the Green party is to expand on Green politics as the idea of a Republican party should be to expand republican politics.

There are many too (in particular SF) who are Nationalists who think they are republicans.Their idea is they would like a United Ireland and thats where it ends. There are many reasons for this. They have romantic ideas of an Irish nation with a tricolour and an anthem and standing proudly among other nations. Notions of a small place like Ireland taking on the might of the British and winning freedom. The idea that if you take away the Union Jack and fly the tricolour you have won self determination. There is nothing Republican about any of this unless you replace the Union Jack with a Republic. Republicanism is not nationalism. In the case of Ireland Irish Nationalism is used to promote Republicanism over British Monarchism. The two have gone hand in hand for so long they have almost merged together but the truth is they are very different.

I am not a Nationalist. I have no regard for the tricolour or the Anthem or Patriotism. I am neither proud nor ashamed to be Irish. I am a Republican. I believe in the peoples right to a republic. I do not believe any is born unto a higher command than another. I oppose Monarchism and promote Republicanism. I would be happy enough to live as a British citizen in a British Republic and I would and will promote republicanism starting in Ireland.

Why does Sinn Fein call themselves a Republican party now ? Should they not be called a nationalist party ?

If what they stood for, which I'm surprised to learn now, was a quest for justice for the catholic people of the 6 counties, and now that that goal has been achieved, is it now a case of remaining in politics simply to ensure that that hard fought and bloody struggle to achieve justice is maintained ??
Was this Brian Keenan and now Sinn Fein's vision of / for the future ?

[Zapatista]

Why does Sinn Fein call themselves a Republican party now ? Should they not be called a nationalist party ?

If what they stood for, which I'm surprised to learn now, was a quest for justice for the catholic people of the 6 counties, and now that that goal has been achieved, is it now a case of remaining in politics simply to ensure that that hard fought and bloody struggle to achieve justice is maintained ??
Was this Brian Keenan and now Sinn Fein's vision of / for the future ?

I should have pointed out that not all SFers are simpley Nationalist. Eoin O'Brion (who Donagh mentioned earlier) is one example of the SF membership and leadership that are very republican and honest socialists. I have answered your with my opinion on the other two points already.

If you think maintaining justice is something simple then I give up.

If you want to have a pop at SF then have a pop at them and if you want to have a pop at me then go ahead. Please don't ask me simple questions about something so complicated.

[orangeman]

Why does Sinn Fein call themselves a Republican party now ? Should they not be called a nationalist party ?

If what they stood for, which I'm surprised to learn now, was a quest for justice for the catholic people of the 6 counties, and now that that goal has been achieved, is it now a case of remaining in politics simply to ensure that that hard fought and bloody struggle to achieve justice is maintained ??
Was this Brian Keenan and now Sinn Fein's vision of / for the future ?

I should have pointed out that not all SFers are simpley Nationalist. Eoin O'Brion (who Donagh mentioned earlier) is one example of the SF membership and leadership that are very republican and honest socialists. I have answered your with my opinion on the other two points already.

If you think maintaining justice is something simple then I give up.

If you want to have a pop at SF then have a pop at them and if you want to have a pop at me then go ahead. Please don't ask me simple questions about something so complicated.

I'm not having a pop at anyone least of all yourself !

But I simply don't accept that Brian Keenan / Sinn Fein leadership's vision of / for the future merely ( and I'm not underestimating the achievement ) consists of stayping in power to maintain justice for their constituents.

[Fíor Gael]

Brian Ó Cianáin, ar dheis De go raibh a anam dilis

[Evil Genius]

An alternative view of this "Man of Peace":
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3985132.ece

Of course, I hardly expect unanimous endorsement on this forum of such obviously Brit propaganda such as the Times of London, never mind someone like Sean O'Callaghan, who has clearly never, ever uttered a word of truth in his life (even in his sleep); nonetheless, I found this particular entry instructive:  

"He may have seen himself as a working-class revolutionary, but he was simultaneously a sectarian bigot. "Keenan believed that the only way, in his words, to put the nonsense out of the Prods was to just hit back much harder and more savagely than them," recalls the IRA informer Sean O'Callaghan. It was Keenan who recommended to Seamus Twomey, then the Provisionals' "chief of staff", that the UVF's random anti-Catholic assassinations should be met with reciprocal acts. The result was the IRA's attack in Kingsmill, South Armagh, in January 1976, in which ten Protestants were murdered in a machinegun attack"