The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread

[Milltown Row2]

Mill town

Fair enough but soccer should not be restructured to suit Celtic ( and Rangers).

Well I think if the want to evolve they may need to cut the safety net and take a chance, what's the worst that can happen? Apparently they are as good as the Mid table  EPL teams, so that be something to build on surely

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Are there examples of clubs playing in leagues outside of their governing body's league where this was not because of

(a) there being no domestic league of their own at the time the club applied to a league in another country, or

(b)  public safety/sectarian issues?

[Milltown Row2]

Are there examples of clubs playing in leagues outside of their governing body's league where this was not because of

(a) there being no domestic league of their own at the time the club applied to a league in another country, or

(b)  public safety/sectarian issues?

(b) could be labelled at Cliftonville and Celtic in their leagues but they managed to stay on... Unlike unfortunately Belfast Celtic who left and never reformed

[From the Bunker]

Last time each of these clubs have won the league

Aberdeen - 1985
Dundee Utd - 1983
Kilmarnock - 1965
Dundee - 1962
Hearts - 1960
Hibernian - 1952
Motherwell - 1932
Dumbarton - 1892

Hearts and Hibs (Big Clubs?) have not won one for over 50 years?

Old firm clubs have 100 titles (out of a possible 118ish titles) and have won all of the last 30! Old firm have won 85% of the titles!

It means even less for Celtic to win the title since the demise of Rangers.

The Problem with Celtic is would they really want to leave Scottish football? I mean look at Liverpool for example. A well supported club both locally, nationally and international. A proud history domestically and in Europe. No league title for 25 years now. Only qualify for Champions league here and there. Would Celtic do any better? Would they just be another Newcastle Utd?

[lenny]

Have a read of this from the respected Channel 4 news presenter. Very interesting.


Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go




Cheats get punished  in sport. You commit a foul: free kick. Bad foul: yellow card. Dangerous foul: it's a red. You foul to gain unfair sporting advantages. It is cheating. It is punished.




Let's widen it a bit. If you cheat off the field of competition you get punished. Lance Armstrong...Ben Johnson...you can add into the familiar rogues' gallery. Again, the cheating is done to gain an unfair sorting advantage. Again, it is punished.

Let's widen again a little to group cheating by a team. If you field an ineligible player to gain sporting advantage, you are punished.

So it is that the game is now up for Rangers FC and only a successful Supreme Court appeal can now save them from what must now ensue.

After the biggest organised cheating scandal in the history of Scottish football – probably British football and possibly in British sport for all I know, the former Rangers owners now face at last paying the British state the tax and NI they dodged for all those years.

But that is only one side of the cheating. Because as we know, as Rangers people testified , the club cheated because they want to get an advantage on the football field.

Eh? How do we all know this to be factually true? Why, because of "Mr Black" of course.

The Rangers Tax Tribunal was held in secret because many of those under HMRC scrutiny wanted it that way. So witnesses in the Rangers case testified under codenames of colours: Mr Red, Mr Yellow and so forth – all a bit Reservoir Dogs meets Extreme Cluedo for Suits.

Step forward "Mr Black".

Here is how the Tax Tribunal describes him: "While Mr Black had been involved in 'signing and selling' 350-400 players in 20 years of involvement at Rangers, he had not, and could not, because of all his commitments, devote any real time to detailed contractual negotiations. At the start of each football season he would meet with his manager to decide on which players might be possible recruits."

Who on earth could that possibly be, we wonder? What role for instance did Sir David Murray himself play? We need to know. We have, of course, approached Sir David, but we've yet to hear back from him.

Why did this powerful but busy character introduce a scheme of wholesale – and now proven to be unlawful – avoidance of NI and income tax?

Why – so the club could gain advantage on the pitch, of course: sporting advantage. By attracting and keeping players they otherwise could not afford. How do we know?

Because the powerful but talkative "Mr Black" was good enough to spill the beans to the Tax Tribunal: "Mr Black did not consider the Trust as a means of tax avoidance, but rather as a means of retaining and rewarding loyal employees. So far as Rangers was concerned it enabled the Club to attract players who would not otherwise have been obtainable."

Sporting advantage.

"Mr Black" didn't see it as a tax wheeze at all, he said, but a football wheeze. Sadly for him if you're now found to have been cheating the taxman you're also cheating football – so now his unfortunate admission is a smoking gun

There is more: "As for Mr Black, he denied that the scheme was for tax avoidance in cross-examination, though he went on to describe the scheme as 'a method of us acquiring, especially football wise, better players in a more cost effective manner than we would be able to do so'; that the club had been 'very ambitious at that time'; and 'it was seen as a correct and proper way for us to proceed'; that Rangers 'have been very successful, because we've been able to attract players of a certain standard that, perhaps, we may not have been able to otherwise'."

One more time: "especially football wise better players in a more cost effective manner". Sporting. Advantage.

Of course when he said this "Mr Black" thought it was all legal. Sadly for him three Law Lords have now unanimously disagreed in uncharacteristically pungent language.

Rangers – obstructive, unhelpful and evasive, according to the Tax Tribunals – are now found to be tax cheats on an industrial scale by the Law Lords.

Which is why "Mr Black's" candid admission – Rangers did it to again sporting advantage – now matters so much. His evidence could not be clearer.

When Lord Nimmo Smith's commission found no such sporting advantage they did so:

1) on the basis that the tax avoidance was legal

2) on the basis of the information they had, though this turned out so much had been withheld from them

The Appeal Court judges have now changed all of that. "Mr Black" now needs to come out and be held to account for cheating at football and income tax. He is far from alone.

It is time Campbell Ogilvie explained his conduct – the man who played a part in the tax avoidance and personally benefited before going on to be SFA President.

It is time Sir David Murray – the conductor of this disastrous orchestration, by overseeing EBTs at Rangers – is similarly held to account for what he did and now, why Rangers did it for advantage on the field: cheating.

Above all, it is time the SPFL members came out from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and beyond to denounce cheating as cheating and take action as fans from Kelso to Thurso are begging them to do.

All the titles and silverware from all the years Rangers cheated at football, as they cheated at tax, must be null and void and wiped from the record.

Let nobody try and tell me it isn't the same club – I have always said it is and now Rangers have to take the consequence of that reality right on the chin.

Turnbull Hutton RIP – how your godforsaken Scottish game needs you now.

Follow @alextomo on Twitter

[screenexile]

And Cardiff in the Championship .... I haven't heard one reason as to why Welsh teams play in the English Leagues and the Scottish teams don't

Because Scotland has had a league since 1890 while Wales has only had one since 1992. Wrexham and Newport also play in the English leagues, there's a robust history of it.

I'm sure Sky would be interested in 'Celtic'. It's the teams that Celtic play that don't interest them. Even a mediocre Championship rival for Cardiff will give Sky more eyeballs than Aberdeen or Hearts. And no, bringing back Rangers wouldn't change that dynamic by much.

So that's cast in stone? its down to having a league longer than another? So  ye must never be allowed to enter? That smells of bullshit surely? That's like saying the Irish league in the North has been going since feck I don't know same as the Scottish and the league of Ireland has been going since similar time so say oh I don't know Derry city for instance can't play in the League of Ireland? .. oh wait 

Cardiff and Swansea Football Club's pre date a Welsh league.

I think in Cardiff's case anyway they joined the relatively new "Southern Football League" quite early which allowed them to rise up the English divisions which is different from Celtic's case as they've played in Scotland all the time.

The English league's are too big now and don't really need Celtic so there's no will for them to get into the English setup except on Celtic's part!

[themac_23]

And Cardiff in the Championship .... I haven't heard one reason as to why Welsh teams play in the English Leagues and the Scottish teams don't

Because Scotland has had a league since 1890 while Wales has only had one since 1992. Wrexham and Newport also play in the English leagues, there's a robust history of it.

I'm sure Sky would be interested in 'Celtic'. It's the teams that Celtic play that don't interest them. Even a mediocre Championship rival for Cardiff will give Sky more eyeballs than Aberdeen or Hearts. And no, bringing back Rangers wouldn't change that dynamic by much.

So that's cast in stone? its down to having a league longer than another? So  ye must never be allowed to enter? That smells of bullshit surely? That's like saying the Irish league in the North has been going since feck I don't know same as the Scottish and the league of Ireland has been going since similar time so say oh I don't know Derry city for instance can't play in the League of Ireland? .. oh wait 

Cardiff and Swansea Football Club's pre date a Welsh league.

I think in Cardiff's case anyway they joined the relatively new "Southern Football League" quite early which allowed them to rise up the English divisions which is different from Celtic's case as they've played in Scotland all the time.

The English league's are too big now and don't really need Celtic so there's no will for them to get into the English setup except on Celtic's part!

I think the will would be there if Celtic weren't parachuted into the top tier of the English League and therefore the football league getting a lot of exposure off the back of celtic and rangers for a year or 2, one way this could viably work is:

celtic come in to the championship and rangers into League 1. the season before they are to join there is 1 team relegated from premiership with 3 gaining promotion, this leaves 22 teams in the top league which then allows the EPL to play their 'international games' they wanted to as there are extra games.

this leaves 22 teams in the championship so 2 down 3 up brings it to 23 plus the inclusion of celtic leaves the championship as is with 24 clubs.

League 1 then has 23 clubs plus the inclusion of Rangers brings it back to the 24 it already had.

So really the top division would be gaining 2 extra teams but it wouldn't be celtic and rangers, they would have to get there themselves, prem teams would be keen because they have less chance of getting relegated in the first year and FL teams would surely benefit of bigger gates and also bigger TV exposure from having these clubs in the league for a few seasons.

[deiseach]

There's more chance of Rangers competing for the Sam Maguire than the above scenario playing out.

[Orior]

There's more chance of Rangers competing for the Sam Maguire than the above scenario playing out.

I was thinking that a Unitied Ireland will arrive first.

[T Fearon]

Celtic AGM on Friday week.Last year Peter Lawwell said that if Celtic were based in England we'd be every bit as big as Barca and Real Madrid

[thebigfella]

Celtic AGM on Friday week.Last year Peter Lawwell said that if Celtic were based in England we'd be every bit as big as Barca and Real Madrid

Bet you had the trousers round the ankles and lad in your hand while listening to that.

[T Fearon]

Yawn zzzzzz

[T Fearon]

Bizarre AGM today.Ian Livingston (a Tory Peer who recently voted for tax credit cuts) was not routinely re elected to the Board (a vote was called for by ballot) due to considerable opposition from the floor 9very bitter), and the Chairman was visibly annoyed. He said, not uneasonably tat Mr Livingston should be judged by his performance as a Celtic Director, not on his politics.It was amusing to see some hardened socialists call for his removal, saying his actions were contrary to the charitable ethos of the club, and Brother Walfrid's ideals. These people seem to forget the club is owned by a billionaire and they themselves have bought shares and are playing the corporate game, and tolerate players earning thousands per week, while calling for the club to introduce the new living wage £8.25 an hour.

[ned]

Last time each of these clubs have won the league

Aberdeen - 1985
Dundee Utd - 1983
Kilmarnock - 1965
Dundee - 1962
Hearts - 1960
Hibernian - 1952
Motherwell - 1932
Dumbarton - 1892

Hearts and Hibs (Big Clubs?) have not won one for over 50 years?

Old firm clubs have 100 titles (out of a possible 118ish titles) and have won all of the last 30! Old firm have won 85% of the titles!

It means even less for Celtic to win the title since the demise of Rangers.

The Problem with Celtic is would they really want to leave Scottish football? I mean look at Liverpool for example. A well supported club both locally, nationally and international. A proud history domestically and in Europe. No league title for 25 years now. Only qualify for Champions league here and there. Would Celtic do any better? Would they just be another Newcastle Utd?

In reality lots of League championships are won by a relatively few teams and it's getting worse. How many clubs have won the EPL since Liverpool last won it? Blackburn and Leeds were one offs and this will not happen again. Chelsea and City have only won the league due to big outside money. If the money from Russia or Middle East wasn't there both these clubs would struggle to be as good as Newcastle. That leaves Arsenal (who are struggling to win the EPL) and United who have mostly always been big clubs. Pretty much a closed shop too.
Liverpool are hamsrtung by their paltry stadium. Sort that and things will change. Celtic in the EPL would be a colossus. Wouldn't guarantee winning the EPL but would be top four regularly. There are only a handful of clubs with global appeal. Celtic are one of them even without the EPL exposure.
And stop with the Old F&%$ shit. This was not relevant as a term when Oldco were in the top league (not since about 1910 anyway) and has no relevance now especially as Newco are effed!

[T Fearon]

It was made very clear at the AGM on Friday that Ronny is the man,and there was no dissent from the floor either.That was all reserved for Lord Livingston😆