"Born Fighting" - The story of the Ulster Scots (UTV programme)

[Evil Genius]

Oh and Saffron Sam, if you're going to rate the quality of someones responses based on the number of posts they make then thats just a tad snobbish.

I also consider someone's ability to use the apostrophe when rating the quality of his / her responses.

In that case, you might be advised to use apostrophes correctly.

That is, the personal possessive does not take the apostrophe, otherwise it would be included in "his", "hers", "ours" or "theirs" etc.

And that would look silly, just like you...

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Surely these are Ulster-Northumbrians or Ulster-Anglish.

I have Ulster-Scots (Irish-Scots) ancestors but they were Gall-Gaels or Norse-Gaels from the Hebrides.

[Oraisteach]

Evil Genius, I ask this in earnest.  As things stand today, in your opinion, what percent of the descendents of Planter stock would label themselves as Irish?  And what percent would opt for the term Ulster-Scots or British?  I certainly consider them Irish but wonder if they themselves do.  In my young day—I know I sound antediluvian—I hazard a guess that the vast majority of them would have been unabashedly British, but I sense a movement away from that characterization.  Maybe I'm wrong. 

On a separate note, I watched the show, found it enjoyable for the most part, but was a little unsettled by a couple of things.  First, the segment about O'Neill and Carrickfergus Castle intimated that the Plantation occurred at the behest of the native population, a sort of latter-day Dermot McMurrough/Strongbow, implying that the natives willingly surrendered their lands, rather than a land grab.  Second, Senator Webb lauded the Scots Presbyterians for their spirit of independence, and their belief in freedom of worship, equality and democratic principles.  How I wonder, did they justify/rationalize casting off those latter two principles in ignoring the election of 1918 in Ireland and subsequently denying those two qualities to the minority population of Northern Ireland.  I write this not to be incendiary but to reflect on Sen. Webb's description of the Ulster-Scots ethos.

[Evil Genius]

wow wow wow EG I never attributed the breakdown of the clan system entirely to the lowland scots etc etc

No, but it was the one you singled out, when it was only one amongst many, of which the others were often as much socio-economic as political (or tribal).

Moreover, you instinctively (and typically) betrayed your sympathy for the (Gallic) Highlanders over the Lowlanders (from whose ranks the Ulster Planters of the 17th C more frequently came).

Not only that, but the way you asserted that the Lowlanders hated the Highlanders, left no room for the corollary i.e. that the Highlanders hated the Lowlanders just as much!

You also avoided the main point (as usual) that being that Scotland was basically 2 countries divided by the great glens, with the old gaelic/celtic trib in the north whilst the lowlands were an entirely differen tribe(s) and religion, they hated the highlanders and sought their destruction, yet every time they get misty eyed they reach for a set of bagpipes and don a kilt, this lack of understanding of where these so called ulster scots came from never ceases to astound me and the irony is totally lost on you and them.

Again, a gross over-simplification.

Take, for example, the two best-known events which immediately preceeded (and hastened)  the end of the clan system, the Glencoe Massacre (1692) and Culloden (1745)

With the former, it was the Highland  Clan Campbell who did King Billy's dirty work for him against their fellow Highlanders, the McDonalds.

And with the latter, not only did more Scots fight on the Hanoverian side than the Jacobite at the final battle of Culloden, but they included Highlanders as well as Lowlanders. Moreover, there were Lowlanders, and even some English(!) who fought for the Jacobite side.

In addition, the Jacobites were supported by the French, whilst the Hanoverian forces included troops from continental Europe (modern day Germany/Austria etc).

And, of course, it would not be a proper fight without some Irish input, some of whom fought fought for Charlie, but others (from Ulster, I believe!) who fought alongside Cumberland.

But hey, if you want to reduce it to nice easy stereotypes, like people do today ("Good Taigs" and "Nasty Huns" etc), knock yourself out.

Meanwhile, there is a bottle of red calling my name, so I shall go now...

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Evil Genius, in your opinion, was it the advantages bestowed to the Settler people after the act of Union that swayed most of the Planter population or was it the much later Victorian anti-Catholicism that swung the pendulum away from the common belief in a modern Republic based on the ideals of the French and American revolutions?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

They must have settled in the free state.

Which Free State? The Orange one?

[delboy]

Evil Genius, I ask this in earnest.  As things stand today, in your opinion, what percent of the descendents of Planter stock would label themselves as Irish?  And what percent would opt for the term Ulster-Scots or British?  I certainly consider them Irish but wonder if they themselves do.  In my young day—I know I sound antediluvian—I hazard a guess that the vast majority of them would have been unabashedly British, but I sense a movement away from that characterization.  Maybe I'm wrong. 

On a separate note, I watched the show, found it enjoyable for the most part, but was a little unsettled by a couple of things.  First, the segment about O'Neill and Carrickfergus Castle intimated that the Plantation occurred at the behest of the native population, a sort of latter-day Dermot McMurrough/Strongbow, implying that the natives willingly surrendered their lands, rather than a land grab.  Second, Senator Webb lauded the Scots Presbyterians for their spirit of independence, and their belief in freedom of worship, equality and democratic principles.  How I wonder, did they justify/rationalize casting off those latter two principles in ignoring the election of 1918 in Ireland and subsequently denying those two qualities to the minority population of Northern Ireland.  I write this not to be incendiary but to reflect on Sen. Webb's description of the Ulster-Scots ethos.

Im a prod and i certainly consider myself an irishman, much to the chagrin of a few of the bigots on here i might add.
I watched the show, thought it was very simplistic and sweeping to be honest, i suppose a two hour documentary covering such a lot of ground was always going to suffer from this though.
I have to say i had a different take on the carrick castle story, simplistic yes, but the 'natives asking for it' no, just a person with power/wealth doing whatever it takes to hang onto some semblance of it, its been repeated through history ad infinitium.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Im a prod and i certainly consider myself an irishman, much to the chagrin of a few of the bigots on here i might add...

Big deal Paddy! 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

No, the one where they reckon the are entitled to live like millionaires, without doing a hands turn. The one in which material possession still mean everything to them while they float deeper into the shitter. The one that misses the Celtic Tiger and the comfy big seat they had on its mane.

The one that believes that their government was to blame and that the greedy shower of Capitalist hoors (almost all of the country) are the victims.

O well it can't be worse than the paranoid, free-loading, terrorist-ridden, statelet to its North.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Im a prod and i certainly consider myself an irishman, much to the chagrin of a few of the bigots on here i might add.

I have no problem with Irish followers of a false deity who follow it in a slightly different way to the majority back in the homeland, kissed one a fortnight back, have another bringing me over some proper Irish rashers from the Ireland this week and had going for a pint with another tonight.

[Malvinas]

No, the one where they reckon the are entitled to live like millionaires, without doing a hands turn. The one in which material possession still mean everything to them while they float deeper into the shitter. The one that misses the Celtic Tiger and the comfy big seat they had on its mane.

The one that believes that their government was to blame and that the greedy shower of Capitalist hoors (almost all of the country) are the victims.

O well it can't be worse than the paranoid, free-loading, terrorist-ridden, statelet to its North.

You rightly refer the six counties as a statelet and must therefore accept the twenty six counties as a statelet aswell. In making reference to the whole island the constitution confirms this.

You refer to the north as terrorist ridden and must also then accept that the southern state was fornded by what you would refer to as terrorists. Furthermore, chances are that your southern statelet will have a government with the main party having emerged from blueshirt facism and its partners having not so long ago been very "Official" in their actions. Hope someone asks Eamon Gilmore how he first got "involved" in politics sometime soon.

Had to laugh at the "free loading" reference. How much of your boom was subsidised by Europe? And now the southern statelet goes cap in hand lookin for Europe to bail it out.

And dont even talk about paranoia...

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

No, the one where they reckon the are entitled to live like millionaires, without doing a hands turn. The one in which material possession still mean everything to them while they float deeper into the shitter. The one that misses the Celtic Tiger and the comfy big seat they had on its mane.

The one that believes that their government was to blame and that the greedy shower of Capitalist hoors (almost all of the country) are the victims.

O well it can't be worse than the paranoid, free-loading, terrorist-ridden, statelet to its North.

You rightly refer the six counties as a statelet and must therefore accept the twenty six counties as a statelet aswell. In making reference to the whole island the constitution confirms this.

You refer to the north as terrorist ridden and must also then accept that the southern state was fornded by what you would refer to as terrorists. Furthermore, chances are that your southern statelet will have a government with the main party having emerged from blueshirt facism and its partners having not so long ago been very "Official" in their actions. Hope someone asks Eamon Gilmore how he first got "involved" in politics sometime soon.

Had to laugh at the "free loading" reference. How much of your boom was subsidised by Europe? And now the southern statelet goes cap in hand lookin for Europe to bail it out.

And dont even talk about paranoia...

mmmm Paranoid much? Read the post above it. Only a very very small part of the original F.G. had anything to do with the Blueshirts. By the way it was a tongue in cheek response to Hardstation. Share an apartment with a few Nationalists from the North (who claim to vote S.F.) who have British passports because they where cheaper, ha ha and they bitch about Collins.

[MW]

also interesting that these ulster scots names don't have a 'Mc' or 'Mac' in them,

Eh?

Plenty of Ulster-Scots (or Scots-Irish) names have a Mc/Mac in them, including my own

[MW]

Evil Genius, I ask this in earnest.  As things stand today, in your opinion, what percent of the descendents of Planter stock would label themselves as Irish?  And what percent would opt for the term Ulster-Scots or British?  I certainly consider them Irish but wonder if they themselves do.  In my young day—I know I sound antediluvian—I hazard a guess that the vast majority of them would have been unabashedly British, but I sense a movement away from that characterization.  Maybe I'm wrong. 

Speaking personally, I would see my national identity as being Northern Irish and British. Ulster-Scots or Scots-Irish would I guess be my "ethnic" identity. I wouldn't label myself as Irish, but wouldn't react against that label being applied (in the right context) - the reason I wouldn't is that there's an Irish identity out there that I wouldn't see myself as having any affinity with, essentially I'd be using the same word to mean a different thing.

I think there's certainly quite a few people among the Protestant/unionist community (using this as an imperfect proxy for "Planter stock") who would view themselves as Irish (probably not as a nationality though), and many who wouldn't. I think British identity would still be strong (and I would say the great majority who would see themselves as Irish would be "British and Irish"). IMO the greatest development in identity would probably be the strengthening of Northern Irish identity (probably linked to a consequent weakening of an "Ulster" identitiy which would also have referred to NI).

Don't know if that makes any sense to a reader...

[MW]

You also avoided the main point (as usual) that being that Scotland was basically 2 countries divided by the great glens, with the old gaelic/celtic trib in the north whilst the lowlands were an entirely differen tribe(s) and religion, they hated the highlanders

Scottish identity is in itself very interesting. For ethnic and geographical reasons it's actually surprising Scotland became a country at all. Even before the Reformation, Highlanders and Lowlanders saw each other as basically foreigners (indeed Lowlanders came to see the Highlanders as "Irish" in many instances). The relatively recent phenomenon of viewing some Highland cultural emblems as "Scottish" emblems may be to some extent symptomatic of a need to differentiate Scottishness from Englishness.