Are you leaving?

[the Deel Rover]

Thanks again everybody for the good wishes and practical suggestions. Iceman - we're all Skyped up already. What a difference that alone makes to people's lives by comparison with the days when a letter took months to arrive.

Anyway - I just wanted to contribute the perspective of the emigrant's family to the discussion. I didn't expect such a thoughtful response.

Yes times have changed Hardy but like you said it still isn't easy seeing them leaving the nest for faraway lands. I 'll dread that day myself  but as much as i hate saying it i think that we are rearing our children for export (i'm hoping i'm wrong)  All the best to your young man.
btw what jersey has he packed is it a cork or meath one

Thanks Rover. The jersey is a Meath one. I had nothing to do with that choice apart from taking him to Meath matches since he could walk. For some strange reason, I can't ever remember taking him to a Cork one. But of course his choice was his own and simply due to inheriting good taste and judgement.

ah he will be allright then 

[anglocelt39]

Returned to the country in the mid 90's after a 12 year period living away. Noticed massive changes even then. Job prospects and tax rates were much improved, two of the factors that drove people away in the 80's. Dublin had become a city rather than a big town. There was a degree of multi-racism emerging in the population that did not exist in the early 80's, the Church did not wield the level of power it once did. Thankfully one thing that had not changed was the hold of the GAA championship during summer, despite Jack's army, Sky sports etc.

One thing that disappointed me on my return was the attitude certain people had developed towards new arrivals in the country, pretty disappointing and displaying very short memories given our history as a nation of emigrants. I remember thinking at the time that a lot of people would change their tune if/when the tide turned and their own little darling, relatively pampered children were forced to, once again, take the airport option out of the country. And so it has come to pass.

That's the big difference for people leaving now I suppose (leaving for economic reasons as opposed to the recent trend of "finding themselves" in South America or South East Asia). Many 20 somethings have experienced a reasonably benevolent time growing up in Ireland and now find themselves fending for themselves overseas,  a new type of challenge which hopefully they can rise to. Think they will be ok. The ones I feel quite sorry for are the 30 somethings who were sold the dream and now find themselves with the mortgage millstone, the two kids and the reduced working hours.

[delboy]

There will always be a deep "yearning" to go back and I don't think you can ever fully explain to anyone, even yourself, what exactly causes that yearning or what it is you yearn for. I have spent many's a night over a few pints trying to figure that one out.
What I have learned now about being away is there is a bigger world out there and I'm a better man for it and I'd imagine you are too. I'm a big believer that wherever you are in life is exactly where you are supposed to be.

Friends and family would be the answer i would have thought iceman, its certainly what I would miss. I often wonder if the middle classes haven't got it wrong, the average middle class person with the opportunities open to them is much more more likley to end up educated and living and working in some far flung corner of the world with only virtual contact with their family (skype just isn't the same as popping in for a cup of tea and a chat). The parents end up boasting about how their son/daughter is making such a sucsess of their life in such and such country but really you can't help feeling they'd be happier if they lived local and could see their children and their grandchildren as often as they wanted rather than once every few years.
The average working class family is much more likely to end up living down the street or within a few miles of the rest of the family, whose happier, those with the opportunities or those without, i wonder.

But i digress, if i was going anywhere i'd be heading for one of the resource rich english speaking countries like canada or oz which should do well in the future despite the emergence and potential dominace of the BRIC nations which could spell scary economic times for the western world (including even the USA).

[The Iceman]

Friends and family is definitely what I miss most delboy. It certainly isn't the same over here, at least where I am. That feeling of disconnectedness is always lurking. When you marry someone from outside your home county in Ireland, though, it's either you or them. For us the option was a no-brainer.
We definitely would not have the quality of life in Ireland that we enjoy here and as a person I am better off for moving away and seeing a bit of the world.

I think based on your example the working class family would be happier, but then isn't everyone who doesn't know any different?

Having lived over here and having all the opportunities, to go back to Ireland would make us happy on many levels and miserable on many more.

If I could I would have all the important people in my life over here with me. Unfortunately that can't happen. I'd say the way things are going we should be in good shape to move back at some point but I know it would only be on a part time basis and mostly so that Granny and Granda get to enjoy the kids. 3-4 months a year at home would suit me alright.

[armaghniac]

There is a certain amount of gloom and doom now, that TV programme during the week was a good example. However the country is not banjaxed for ever. We literally borrowed the good times from 2009-2013 and spent it back in 2004-2008. But when this phase passes things will be decent and people who want to return here will be able to do so. Many won't chose to, having settled away, acquired spouses etc, but many will come back too.

[delboy]

Friends and family is definitely what I miss most delboy. It certainly isn't the same over here, at least where I am. That feeling of disconnectedness is always lurking. When you marry someone from outside your home county in Ireland, though, it's either you or them. For us the option was a no-brainer.
We definitely would not have the quality of life in Ireland that we enjoy here and as a person I am better off for moving away and seeing a bit of the world.

I think based on your example the working class family would be happier, but then isn't everyone who doesn't know any different?

Having lived over here and having all the opportunities, to go back to Ireland would make us happy on many levels and miserable on many more.

If I could I would have all the important people in my life over here with me. Unfortunately that can't happen. I'd say the way things are going we should be in good shape to move back at some point but I know it would only be on a part time basis and mostly so that Granny and Granda get to enjoy the kids. 3-4 months a year at home would suit me alright.

Sounds like you are in a very similar position to a couple of my mates that live in the states, they married local girls, have good jobs, and a good lifestyle, they miss friends and family, the sense of humour and the sense of community in ireland but at the same time they are happy where they are in their lives.

My little example about the working class and middle class family model was just some musing by me and wasn't meant to reflect at all on your circumstances, i just tagged it on to my reply. To be honest though i think the parents left behind in many ways feel it more acutely than those that have moved abroad as they are busy with their lives and rearing their young families. I just find it interesting that some people will bend over backwards and make all sorts of sacrifices to educate their children and give them all the opportunities that they can and that often it results in them seeing less of their children and grandkids.
I realise thats its probably very selfish of me but when I get old i hope to see as much of my children and grandkids as possible, i think I would a happy chappy if it worked out like that.

[ONeill]

I don't really get the gloom over a sibling/son/daughter leaving either. It's an awful big world (yet in terms of communication v small) and it should be a celebration to see them educated well enough to be able to handpick a destination with the likelihood of a well paid job. I left for England aged 22 and returned at 24 because the future wife was too much of a homebird. I loved England and in particular Birmingham with its diversity of cultures. My young lad is only coming 5 but as soon as he can fly off I'll be the first to facilitate it.

[CiKe]

i think the posts from armaghniac and iceman are accurate enough for many people. A lot of emigrants would have great intentions of one day returning, but you see the world and you realise there is a better quality of life available elsewhere. The Iceman's situation seems to be similar to my sister's who was a few years in Auckland, a few years in Sydney and back again to Auckland recently. With two young kids and her staying at home, there is no way her family could have the quality of life she has in NZ. She always thought herself that she would come back closer to home, if not to Ireland itself, but at some stage as she says, you realise you have to live for your children and not your parents.

Some people might find that a bit harsh and maybe wonder why you can't combine the two, and for some or maybe a lot, I don't know, combining the two would be possible. But our folks always encouraged us to fly the nest at the earliest opportunity.  If it ever comes to a choice, I guess you end up thinking to yourself that your parents have already lived a good life, and the opportunities for the childer will take precedence.

[Milltown Row2]

But what is this quality of life you talk about? Big house, more money?? are they material things that float you're boat?

[ONeill]

To me a quality life experience is seeing as much of the planet you're on, engaging with as many cultures a possible. I, regrettably, haven't managed that but hopefully when the children have flown we can set about those experiences God willing.

[The Iceman]

Didn't think anything was directed at me Delboy. Very fair point and observation.
I could write a book on it all at this point I think. The life of a disconnected Emigrant, at home and abroad.....

A part of me would love to be home but I know I'd be no sooner back than I'd be looking to get away again. Not because Ireland isn't worth staying in but just because the rest of the world is worth exploring..... For now I'll enjoy where I am and wherever I end up.....
Where I am from will never change......

[CiKe]

But what is this quality of life you talk about? Big house, more money?? are they material things that float you're boat?

Not at all. I don't mean to be disparaging or put anyone down, and I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush but Ireland can be very parochial.but after living in different more cosmopolitan places and experiencing different cultures, it opens a whole new world of experiences.

And I don't know about the rest of the emigrants in lands with better weather than Ireland but Milltown, in my own experience and in all seriousness the weather has an incredible impact on the psyche. Torrential Irish rain didn't bother me one bit till I lived in sunny Madrid for two years. Running the legs off you and the other old codgers back in the Falls Park with the sleet coming down had its infrequent charms, but I tell you pucking / kicking a ball about with the sun on your back nine times out of ten, was only bloody fabulous!

[CiKe]

A part of me would love to be home but I know I'd be no sooner back than I'd be looking to get away again. Not because Ireland isn't worth staying in but just because the rest of the world is worth exploring..... For now I'll enjoy where I am and wherever I end up.....
Where I am from will never change......

great post, couldn't agree more.

[Milltown Row2]

Yes and that's what the holidays are for O'Neil. We try and get away abroad for two summers and stay home one year for the summer. I did the summer in the States and managed a month in Crete and my wife and i did Inter railing for 4 weeks before we got married.

I remember starting out as a young Harland and Wolff Apprentice claiming I'll get my trade and leave to work abroad. Didn't  happen

Circumstances changed and i became a father at the age of 21, those dreams dashed but settled into making a living and setting new dreams, my son now 18 is looking to experience those things himself, jealousy springs to mind

I hope my girls educate themselves here in N.Ireland (will cost serious money now) and find work here. One will definitely stay (homebird) the other? well i reckon she has the Marco Polo gene, and want to travel.

[ross4life]

But what is this quality of life you talk about? Big house, more money?? are they material things that float you're boat?

Have always wondered this myself? have a friend that keeps saying "come to australia the quality of life is so much better than anywhere else"

If it's just the sunshine,beaches relaxed life etc then why not move to south of France/Spain which is closer to home?