Queen of England has a new baby!

[thebigfella]

Why is that Puck? 1.Why do gay people deserve whatever hetrosexual people have?
2.There is such a thing as positive discrimination.

Definitely don't agree with your live and let live mentality.  Surely you draw the line somewhere???

1. Why do they not deserve the same things as heterosexual people?
2. In what way can discrimination ever be positive? Example?

2. Women are not allowed in Men's changing rooms. Positive discrimination. Easy example. Hope you understand.

1. I don't believe Gay people should be "married".  For one it weakens the meaning of marriage. Which in turn will lead to further divorce or broken marriage, which in turn leads to the suffering of children and society in general.
Divorce and broken home definitely affects children. This in turn affects society in general. The Divorce rate sky rocketed when divorce was legalized. This legalization caused a weakening of the meaning of marriage. Allowing gay people to marry will further weaken the term and therefore lead to more broken homes.
Looking at different studies it might be safe to say that gay men especially are less likely to be faithful. In fact 5% of gay men in "unions" claim to be faithful to their "partners" surely this does not bode well for any children being brought up in this environment.
Of course there are exceptions on both sides. There are bad hetrosexual parents and people who don't deserve to be parents but that isn't the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Puck you talk about criminals not being allowed to father children or raise children. Homosexuality is still illegal in over 70 countries on the planet - that's over a 3rd of the world. Please don't consider this my sole argument and run with it - I am only responding to one of your points.

Yes this is all very controversial, yes these are real people we are talking about and yes emotions get involved. But we're talking about right and wrong here. For me that can't be diluted.

So basically your whole argument is based on the fact you believe homosexuality is wrong?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Why is that Puck? 1.Why do gay people deserve whatever hetrosexual people have?
2.There is such a thing as positive discrimination.

Definitely don't agree with your live and let live mentality.  Surely you draw the line somewhere???

1. Why do they not deserve the same things as heterosexual people?
2. In what way can discrimination ever be positive? Example?

2. Women are not allowed in Men's changing rooms. Positive discrimination. Easy example. Hope you understand.

Erm... that's not positive discrimination, that's gender separation/segregation. We're not allowed in theirs either.

Definition:

The provision of special opportunities in employment, training, etc. for disadvantaged groups, such as the disabled, women, ethnic minorities, etc.

[RealSpiritof98]

Why is that Puck? 1.Why do gay people deserve whatever hetrosexual people have?
2.There is such a thing as positive discrimination.

Definitely don't agree with your live and let live mentality.  Surely you draw the line somewhere???

1. Why do they not deserve the same things as heterosexual people?
2. In what way can discrimination ever be positive? Example?

2. Women are not allowed in Men's changing rooms. Positive discrimination. Easy example. Hope you understand.
1. I don't believe Gay people should be "married".  For one it weakens the meaning of marriage. Which in turn will lead to further divorce or broken marriage, which in turn leads to the suffering of children and society in general.
Divorce and broken home definitely affects children. This in turn affects society in general. The Divorce rate sky rocketed when divorce was legalized. This legalization caused a weakening of the meaning of marriage. Allowing gay people to marry will further weaken the term and therefore lead to more broken homes.
Looking at different studies it might be safe to say that gay men especially are less likely to be faithful. In fact 5% of gay men in "unions" claim to be faithful to their "partners" surely this does not bode well for any children being brought up in this environment.
Of course there are exceptions on both sides. There are bad hetrosexual parents and people who don't deserve to be parents but that isn't the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Puck you talk about criminals not being allowed to father children or raise children. Homosexuality is still illegal in over 70 countries on the planet - that's over a 3rd of the world. Please don't consider this my sole argument and run with it - I am only responding to one of your points.

Yes this is all very controversial, yes these are real people we are talking about and yes emotions get involved. But we're talking about right and wrong here. For me that can't be diluted.

So basically your whole argument is based on the fact you believe homosexuality is wrong?

I dont know about you but women are more than welcome in any male changing room i have been in, but men are probably not welcome in theirs.

[johnneycool]

Why is that Puck? 1.Why do gay people deserve whatever hetrosexual people have?
2.There is such a thing as positive discrimination.

Definitely don't agree with your live and let live mentality.  Surely you draw the line somewhere???

1. Why do they not deserve the same things as heterosexual people?
2. In what way can discrimination ever be positive? Example?

2. Women are not allowed in Men's changing rooms. Positive discrimination. Easy example. Hope you understand.

1. I don't believe Gay people should be "married".  For one it weakens the meaning of marriage. Which in turn will lead to further divorce or broken marriage, which in turn leads to the suffering of children and society in general.
Divorce and broken home definitely affects children. This in turn affects society in general. The Divorce rate sky rocketed when divorce was legalized. This legalization caused a weakening of the meaning of marriage. Allowing gay people to marry will further weaken the term and therefore lead to more broken homes.
Looking at different studies it might be safe to say that gay men especially are less likely to be faithful. In fact 5% of gay men in "unions" claim to be faithful to their "partners" surely this does not bode well for any children being brought up in this environment.
Of course there are exceptions on both sides. There are bad hetrosexual parents and people who don't deserve to be parents but that isn't the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Puck you talk about criminals not being allowed to father children or raise children. Homosexuality is still illegal in over 70 countries on the planet - that's over a 3rd of the world. Please don't consider this my sole argument and run with it - I am only responding to one of your points.

Yes this is all very controversial, yes these are real people we are talking about and yes emotions get involved. But we're talking about right and wrong here. For me that can't be diluted.

Different point here, but divorce in itself isn't the issue as its normally the end game of a broken marriage. I'm not suggesting that divorce is a good thing but I don't know whether its more detrimental for youngsters to be brought up in a home where the two parents are not truly relating and amicably communicating with each other, possibly violently and that where the parents are separated and divorced. Neither is ideal but it isn't an ideal world we live in.

Yes the divorce rate in Ireland did rocket once divorce became legal, but maybe that is a reflection on the hidden and suppressed broken marriages around Ireland where battered women were encouraged to tough it out for the 'good' of the family but those looking after their spiritual welfare at the time.
Is divorce too easy an option, I don't know, but its certainly cheaper than an annulment.

As for gay couples adopting/surrogating/buying a child, I doesn't sit easily with me but that could be my inherent prejudices against the wealthy using their wealth to do whatever is the latest fad and I'm as uncomfortable with what Elton and David have done as much as what Madonna and Angelina Jolie seemed to be doing.

Are children the next poodle? I really hope not.

[andoireabu]

2. Women are not allowed in Men's changing rooms. Positive discrimination. Easy example. Hope you understand.

1. I don't believe Gay people should be "married".  For one it weakens the meaning of marriage. Which in turn will lead to further divorce or broken marriage, which in turn leads to the suffering of children and society in general.
Divorce and broken home definitely affects children. This in turn affects society in general. The Divorce rate sky rocketed when divorce was legalized. This legalization caused a weakening of the meaning of marriage. Allowing gay people to marry will further weaken the term and therefore lead to more broken homes.
Looking at different studies it might be safe to say that gay men especially are less likely to be faithful. In fact 5% of gay men in "unions" claim to be faithful to their "partners" surely this does not bode well for any children being brought up in this environment.
Of course there are exceptions on both sides. There are bad hetrosexual parents and people who don't deserve to be parents but that isn't the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Puck you talk about criminals not being allowed to father children or raise children. Homosexuality is still illegal in over 70 countries on the planet - that's over a 3rd of the world. Please don't consider this my sole argument and run with it - I am only responding to one of your points.

Yes this is all very controversial, yes these are real people we are talking about and yes emotions get involved. But we're talking about right and wrong here. For me that can't be diluted.

If women have their own facilities then they are not being discriminated against. Most places that have changing rooms provide for both male and female so that is hardly a good example.

Why do you think gay marriage weakens the meaning of marriage and will lead to more divorce?
Divorce rates are at their lowest in 29 years and gay marriage has been legal since 2005 so that would show your idea that divorce rates would further "rocket" to be wrong.

Where is your source for you fact that 5% of gay men are faithful?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8485132.stm

Since December 2005, if you're gay and in a relationship, you can obtain legal status in the UK by getting hitched. http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelationships/couples/marriage/planningacivilpartnership

[ziggysego]

The only thing that matter is, will they be good parents and provide for their child's needs? Anything else is illrelevent.

Just replace the word gay with

1. Black
2. Disabled
3. German
4. Blue eyes

to see how stupid your statement is.

[RealSpiritof98]

Why is that Puck? 1.Why do gay people deserve whatever hetrosexual people have?
2.There is such a thing as positive discrimination.

Definitely don't agree with your live and let live mentality.  Surely you draw the line somewhere???

1. Why do they not deserve the same things as heterosexual people?
2. In what way can discrimination ever be positive? Example?

2. Women are not allowed in Men's changing rooms. Positive discrimination. Easy example. Hope you understand.

1. I don't believe Gay people should be "married".  For one it weakens the meaning of marriage. Which in turn will lead to further divorce or broken marriage, which in turn leads to the suffering of children and society in general.
Divorce and broken home definitely affects children. This in turn affects society in general. The Divorce rate sky rocketed when divorce was legalized. This legalization caused a weakening of the meaning of marriage. Allowing gay people to marry will further weaken the term and therefore lead to more broken homes.
Looking at different studies it might be safe to say that gay men especially are less likely to be faithful. In fact 5% of gay men in "unions" claim to be faithful to their "partners" surely this does not bode well for any children being brought up in this environment.
Of course there are exceptions on both sides. There are bad hetrosexual parents and people who don't deserve to be parents but that isn't the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Puck you talk about criminals not being allowed to father children or raise children. Homosexuality is still illegal in over 70 countries on the planet - that's over a 3rd of the world. Please don't consider this my sole argument and run with it - I am only responding to one of your points.

Yes this is all very controversial, yes these are real people we are talking about and yes emotions get involved. But we're talking about right and wrong here. For me that can't be diluted.

Different point here, but divorce in itself isn't the issue as its normally the end game of a broken marriage. I'm not suggesting that divorce is a good thing but I don't know whether its more detrimental for youngsters to be brought up in a home where the two parents are not truly relating and amicably communicating with each other, possibly violently and that where the parents are separated and divorced. Neither is ideal but it isn't an ideal world we live in.

Yes the divorce rate in Ireland did rocket once divorce became legal, but maybe that is a reflection on the hidden and suppressed broken marriages around Ireland where battered women were encouraged to tough it out for the 'good' of the family but those looking after their spiritual welfare at the time.
Is divorce too easy an option, I don't know, but its certainly cheaper than an annulment.

As for gay couples adopting/surrogating/buying a child, I doesn't sit easily with me but that could be my inherent prejudices against the wealthy using their wealth to do whatever is the latest fad and I'm as uncomfortable with what Elton and David have done as much as what Madonna and Angelina Jolie seemed to be doing.

Are children the next poodle? I really hope not.

Please start typing about Hurling again. getting very deep here,

[ziggysego]

By the way, the real Queen of England became a Great-Granny today. God Bless ma'.

[Puckoon]

Iceman - Marriage as an institution is a sham,  and has been for a long time. Marriage as a union between two people is not. Lets be honest here - Hollywood and the instant gratification culture has done more to weaken the meaning of marriage than homosexuality ever could. If your marriage is beautiful - then be content. Too many other people don't give a shite about the sanctity of marriage for us to use sanctity as a reason to not let homosexual people join their lives together. How can you want to preserve the meaning of marriage if there are still being 12 year olds sold into marriage in countries?

The meaning of marriage has major significance - but most of the significance should be between you and your wife. That is all that should really matter.

This soundbyte of divorce and broken homes affecting children is pretty much a soundbyte. For every broken home that does affect a child in a negative way - there is one broken home that may make the children's lives better, or for that matter there is probably one unbroken home that is affecting a child in a negative way.

The absolute reality is that for every child given a loving home, loving care and a family - whatever way that family may be, there is no real argument against, and we are most certainly not the people in a position to decide that. For other children, nor for other adults.

Homosexuality is definitely strange, and definitely weird to me - coming from a heterosexual perspective. But wrong? On what basis and on who's judgement? Fundamentally it's no different to you being an ass man, or me being a boob man.

(BTW - If you'd rather be the boob man due to the sensitive nature of the discussion - I'll be the ass man) 

[Puckoon]

What kind of a nonsense post is that? Who are you and what did you do with Zap?

[delboy]

Just like being celibate means you can't have children being Gay equally means you can't have children. That's how it is.

Being celibate is choice being gay is not, end off.

[ziggysego]

What kind of a nonsense post is that? Who are you and what did you do with Zap?

He's round the back of the bike shed with the real Orior.

[Puckoon]

Celibate people can still have children, as can Gay. People who are celibate for religious reasons, may also be prohibited by their orders from having children. This does not apply to gay people.

What should gay people be taking self responsibility for?


It'd be a brave man in this world to say that most of the celibates in Ireland in the last few decades were not interested in sex.

[andoireabu]

Zap,

What about couples who can't have children, if the woman can't carry a child or if a man is firing blanks.  Is that an unfortunate consequence and should they just put up with it?

[johnneycool]

I think gay people wanting to adopt should take some responibility for themseleves. It's an unfortunate consequence of their sexuality every bit as much as someone who is celibate.

But is it then an unfortunate consequence for a heterosexual couple where either may be unable to have a child to accept their lot and not be able to adopt or surrogate?