The mystery of Kildare

[Ohtoohtobe]

Thanks Seafoid yeah I think too many pundits just stick with no-scoring-forwards when Kildare are mentioned. That was true at times in the 90s but is lazy analysis now when our defence is a much bigger problem. 

Anyway, hopefully Cian O'Neill lives up to his reputation and changes the mentality.

[Beffs]

Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....

Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods. 

[Main Street]

I'd agree with a lot of what Captain Scarlet has outlined above. Outside of Newbridge, only Athy, Celbridge and Confey of the suburban clubs are performing up to their potential and the latter two compete at a high level in both codes which probably doesn't help their chances of competing with the Newbridge clubs.

The Naas club lacks the identity that the Newbridge clubs have. They've been out of the running since the Johnny McDonald was on the scene although their recent Féile success suggests they may finally come good in the years ahead. Like Celbridge and Confey though their dual status might hold them back from a football point of view.

Towers and Kilcock as mentioned earlier have fallen away and have gone from competing at the top of the senior championship to struggling to get out of intermediate in a short space of time. Clane have also been in a sharp decline which is poor from a club who used to backbone the county team. Their minor's and Scoil Mhuire's recent successes need to be built upon.

A lot of Kildare's "newer" population are simply not involved in their local communities to anywhere near the same extent as the first wave of migrants who settled in places like Naas, Celbridge and Leixlip in the early 1980s. They would have mostly been from the counties on the southern and western seaboard whereas now the people settling in Kildare are migrating out from the capital. Generally the more recent migrants spend most of their days commuting and as a result of this commuting culture a lot of them have little involvement locally. This leads to a lack of the same local identity that can be found in the older areas of the towns and in the more rural areas of the county. There needs to be a big drive to get the children of this new population involved in the local clubs.

That could be understood as acute ethnic dilution by the dubious virtue of being next door to that awful Dublin sprawl. I do sympathise.
But their children will be Kildarites, eventually. The first port of call is GAA activity in the schools.

[seafoid]

Newspapers GAA and other sports usually consists of a string of cliches cobbled together.

especially indo weekdays. Martin Breheny FFS. Jesus, what a dull journalist

I like Brolly, Keith Duggan and Kimmage

[Ohtoohtobe]

Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....

Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.

Donnelly's Hollow or Dinny Breen might be better able to tell you as I don't live in Kildare at the minute but I'd imagine there's optimism based on O'Neill's reputation.

[seafoid]

Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....

Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.

Donnelly's Hollow or Dinny Breen might be better able to tell you as I don't live in Kildare at the minute but I'd imagine there's optimism based on O'Neill's reputation.

Any good Young players coming through?

[Dinny Breen]

Great post Ohtoohtobe. What is the mood in Kildare after the 2015 campaign? Finally beating a Div 1 team must have been a great shot in the arm, but that loss to Kerry......jayzus.....

Be interesting to see how Cian O'Neill gets on. He has such a great reputation as a trainer, I was surprised to hear a Paul Galvin interview recently, where he pretty much threw O'Neill under the bus for his training methods.

Donnelly's Hollow or Dinny Breen might be better able to tell you as I don't live in Kildare at the minute but I'd imagine there's optimism based on O'Neill's reputation.

There's always optimism, sure it's the hope that kills you.

Even the KCB seem to be more democratic than autocratic and officers now realise that they have to prove their worth.

I advocated O'Neill's appointment, he has come from a high performance culture with Kerry and has served a good apprenticeship under Fitzmaurice and Horan.

O'Neill will be performance oriented but supporters goals are straightforward promotion and a Leinster final appearance. That would be a good 2016, well as along we don't suffer two capitulations like Dublin and Kerry this year.

Galvin was an old man returning to play a young man's game, like all ego's they look to shift the blame, wouldn't worry too much about what he says.

[Bord na Mona man]

Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.

Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.

You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.

[seafoid]

Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.

Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.

You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.

Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.   

I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.

[Zulu]

I think this is hugely interesting question and one that is at the heart of what we should be doing in the GAA. It's also reflective of a broader sports development discussion and something that is leading to a rethink in UK sport as far as I know. It is my view that adult (or elite) sport success is created primarily by focusing on kids and investing in them. Instead, huge resources are wasted on a small few elite athletes with often limited returns. Build a strong base and you will end up with high level elite performers and this is true of any sport. That's not to say you ignore the top but you don't prioritise it to such a degree that the base suffers.

A county like Kildare should be fanatical about getting as many young boys and girls playing football and providing a modern, scientific, skill based and enjoyable pathway to elite level. I also think the GAA should partly fund this as it is in their own interests to have big, income generating counties like Kildare strong, especially in Leinster. The GAA is set up perfectly to create elite athletes, and by that I mean world class level, even they only actually compete at county level. There's a disproportionate amount of world class athletes from cities with 100,000 or less people. We have a small island with 32 distinct areas and numerous clubs that cater for relatively small numbers within each county. If Kildare devised and initiated a universal player recruitment and development program they should quickly become a consistent force at national level. It wouldn't be overly difficult to do, and if supported by Croke Park, very realistic.

[seafoid]

I think this is hugely interesting question and one that is at the heart of what we should be doing in the GAA. It's also reflective of a broader sports development discussion and something that is leading to a rethink in UK sport as far as I know. It is my view that adult (or elite) sport success is created primarily by focusing on kids and investing in them. Instead, huge resources are wasted on a small few elite athletes with often limited returns. Build a strong base and you will end up with high level elite performers and this is true of any sport. That's not to say you ignore the top but you don't prioritise it to such a degree that the base suffers.

A county like Kildare should be fanatical about getting as many young boys and girls playing football and providing a modern, scientific, skill based and enjoyable pathway to elite level. I also think the GAA should partly fund this as it is in their own interests to have big, income generating counties like Kildare strong, especially in Leinster. The GAA is set up perfectly to create elite athletes, and by that I mean world class level, even they only actually compete at county level. There's a disproportionate amount of world class athletes from cities with 100,000 or less people. We have a small island with 32 distinct areas and numerous clubs that cater for relatively small numbers within each county. If Kildare devised and initiated a universal player recruitment and development program they should quickly become a consistent force at national level. It wouldn't be overly difficult to do, and if supported by Croke Park, very realistic.

I agree. and CP needs to help make Leinster more competitive. The Dubs are great and all but..

[Rossfan]

CP needs to help make Leinster more competitive. The Dubs are great and all but..

Can you imagine the crowds ( and €€€€€€s) if well populated Counties like Meath, Kildare, Louth and Wicklow were challenging Dublin every year in Leinster.
Any investment would be well recouped.

[Zulu]

Not just Leinster counties though. We bemoan the lack of competition in both codes yet we allow all counties to (seemingly) paddle their own canoes when a bit of directed financial and coaching support for a few years could make counties like Kildare, Meath, Antrim, Limerick, Louth, Galway, Roscommon, Cork etc. much stronger and ultimately self sufficient.

I've mainly coached kids for the past 3 years but coached adults previously and it's striking how much different it is in terms of player development. While you can improve an adult player you have the time to transform an underage player and because they are keen to learn you can really develop fundamentally sound players. When you get kids with exceptional talent then you can produce exceptional players that can do it all. To be fair, the standard of young player being produced now is generally far ahead of those in previous generations but there's still room for improvement.

[Zulu]

CP needs to help make Leinster more competitive. The Dubs are great and all but..

Can you imagine the crowds ( and €€€€€€s) if well populated Counties like Meath, Kildare, Louth and Wicklow were challenging Dublin every year in Leinster.
Any investment would be well recouped.

Exactly Rossfan and that could then be distributed to other counties for direct investment. But not only the crowds, the publicity and interest it would generate for football amongst the wider sporting community would help motivate and inspire kids to focus (or take up) on the game. That in turn helps the clubs and helps us tap into communities where we haven't a strong presence.

[Bord na Mona man]

Going back to the original question. I think the fundamentals aren't as strong as in successful counties. As has been discussed, a big population alone is not a key to success as you get a lower return from townies and blow ins.

Go back before urbanisation, Kildare was actually a lowly populated county. In the 1940s there was less people living in Kildare than in Kilkenny. When you read the history books recounting nomadic labourers working in 'turf camps' and prior to that 'Curragh wrens' in the latter days of British rule, it doesn't paint a picture of a democratically prosperous place.
Kildare's record up until then was actually decent. 10 of their 13 Leinster football titles were won before 1935. So the population and money overspill from Dublin from the '60s onwards was never much help in winning stuff.

You could argue that the Bertie Ahern-ism mentality (keep throwing money at a problem until it fixes itself) which took root in the early 90s, probably did as much damage as good as it took focus off sustainable long term development and got the county into a quick fix, stroke pulling mindset.

Say in 1950 Kildare had a stronger tradition than Offaly. But Offaly went on to win 3 ? all Irelands and Kildare did not. So why did Offaly manage it? Was it just about the right people at the right time or something else ? Offaly would not have had much of a big population in 1950 either.   

I suppose more recently the stranglehold that Dublin have had has ruined the Leinster championship.

A few different reasons. Offaly did get some good men in charge of teams back in the era when collective training was only taking off. The establishment of ESB and Bord na Móna provided employment which helped quell the loss of players to emigration.

While Offaly didn't have 'tradition' in the sense of a winning tradition, there was certainly an interest. When Offaly made a breakthrough of sorts in the early 1960s, along with Down they broke all attendance records for the 2 All Ireland semi-finals and the final they met in.

There was a book published in 2011 that gave an insight into the progress made by Offaly which culminated in those epic encounters.
Discussion of the book here:
http://uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5684&start=0