Peace, power-sharing, prosperity....and paraphernalia

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

Driving between Lurgan and Newry last night, I couldn't help but notice the contrast between all that the north of Ireland has now, thanks to the overall 'peace process', or whatever you'd call it, and the wee loyalist, flag-carrying idiots who just couldn't help themselves but ghettoise town centres once again with their red, white and blue bunting, bastardised Union Jacks/Ulster flags, arches and 'bonnies' for another annual celebration of so-called cultural heritage.

Let them march up and down their own estates if they want to, all year long if they feel it necessary, wreck their neighbourhoods with illegally constructed bonfires and (planning approved?) arches, but I'm sorry, this is western Europe in the 21st century and it's time this crowd grew up.

[Spiritof98]

And stopping traffic in the middle of Armagh (as if its not bad enough) and kept and certain fenian from getting to work last night

[GweylTah]

The people who feel the need to do this will say it is a long-standing tradition, a celebration of their culture, and be likely point to some nationalist towns and villages being bedecked in GAA regalia, especially if their county is close to a final, etc, and such things as nationalist bunting and flags at Easter, and hunger strike commemorative flags and hoardings which were very extensive in towns and villages and main roads, like the A1 from Newry to the border and A6, pretty well from Toome to Dungiven at intervals, for a lot of last year.

Be inconsistent about it if you like, but expect others to redress the balance, personally I think NI would be better off without flags, bunting, etc, from all traditions other than perhpas on a vey short term basis. It's interesting that less and less people are prepared to adorn thieir own houses with such stuff, even in very strongly loyalist or republican areas, as well as the murals being reduced and others toned down - it's amazing what pride people start to take in their areas when it's their mortgage and their investment / property value that's at stake.

[stiffler]

Was down the Lisburn road today, the place was littered with flags.

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

I totally agree with you that Ireland would be better off without flags or bunting of any kind - and the first step towards that is a complete neutral zone in all commercial centres - free from flags, bunting, arches, bonfires and especially marches - starting with Belfast.

However, again, I do not agree to equating loyalism with the GAA - by all means, talk about republican or Hunger Strike-related commemorations if you wish - but please don't bring the GAA into the discussion.

[GweylTah]

The thing is, a lot of loyalists appear to see the GAA and all of its trappings as nationalist 'version' of the OO, even if the comparison isn't accurate.

I don't think there's much chance of a ban on marching, it would be seen as an assault on 'one side', an d then there's the right to march and freedom of assembly, which would also involve groups that have nothing to do with the orange / green argument, like trades unions, pride marches, environmental and anti-poverty groups, etc.

[Donagh]

Presumably this longstanding tradition of littering the place with sectarian rags dates back before the last years Hunger Strike commemoration.

[GweylTah]

Presumably this longstanding tradition of littering the place with sectarian rags dates back before the last years Hunger Strike commemoration.

If you think that's what the loyalists are doing (and you might have a pont), then why ape them?

[full back]

Gweyltah, why do you continually distance yourself from comments you make?
"thats what the loyalists"  "the thing is, a lot of loyalists appear"  "The people who feel the need to do this will say it is a long-standing tradition"

You are a wind up merchant, who only sh1t stirs

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

What is a loyalist? If it's someone who is a member of the Orange Order, who are still even forbidden from attending the funeral mass of one of their 'Roman' (sic) Catholic neighbours, then perhaps I could understand their aversion to other things perceived to be exclusively Irish/nationalist/republican/Catholic.... simply because they are bigots.

However, if it's a DUP supporter, then they now seem to fall into at least 3 camps -

(1) those genuinely interested in power-sharing, respecting cultutal differences, living and let live;
(2) those who voted DUP for strength in numbers (i.e. formerly UUP supporters) but would not at all compare the OO to the GAA;
(3) Ian Paisley Jnr and a few other nuts.

I can't see why a ban on sectarian marches couldn't be imposed in commercial areas in the north - or at least have them restricted. Neo-nazis march in London but not every weekend for 5 months.

I am totally in favour of freedom of assembly for the groups you mentioned outside of the traditional orange / green - I just think there is now room for a mature discussion on the OO, particularly because of developments in the Assembly, changes in demographics and the increasing numbers of foreign nationals living and working here.

[Donagh]

Blame it all on the Fenians. Intelligence personified.

[SammyG]

Blame it all on the Fenians.

Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.

Two sides of the same shitty coin.

[GweylTah]

Its a different country down here, no-one cares who you are or what you are, they are too busy getting on with their lives.

I don't think that's strictly true, as the furore at the last Love Ulster march and the furore over plans for another one would indicate.  I understand Orange participation in a muti-cultural event in Cork in the last year or two also had to be withdrawn because of pressure and threats from republicans (presumably not those in the mould of Tone or the United Irishmen).

I am not a loyalist, doubtless some of you would call me lots of things but if I was to pick a label myself I woulld say I'm an incurably emancipated liberal.  I don't go to or participate in Orange parades any more than I do Hibernian ones, but each to their own.  The intolerance shown to the entire Orange tradition on this board, while its extremism is hardly typical of Ireland in general, is disappointing for this era. These are the people that the flag is supposed to represent unity with, unless that's just tokenry on a meaningless rag to you?

[Mentalman]

I don't think that's strictly true, as the furore at the last Love Ulster march and the furore over plans for another one would indicate.  I understand Orange participation in a muti-cultural event in Cork in the last year or two also had to be withdrawn because of pressure and threats from republicans (presumably not those in the mould of Tone or the United Irishmen).

Two incidents. Right enough a bastion of intolerance. By the same measure the impeccable respecting of GSTQ in Croke Park last year must mean all our issues with England in particular are resolved.

As for Love Ulster, it got the reaction it sought unfortunately. Mostly from scumbags who have little understanding or appreciation of the society they live in, never mind it's history, except perhaps the sort they heard about from the Wolftones in the Celtic Symphony. As for Love Ulster II I think a lot of people in the Republic wish they would have their march and be quietly ignored by the rest of us getting on with our lives, but as that is not possible we remain to be convinced why public safety should be jepordised, tax payers money spent on the event, and the centre of the largest city on the island ground to a halt - it's not Belfast on the 12th you know   It's a balance of civil liberties versus the greater good, it happens every day.

[Donagh]

Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.

I challenge you to find even one post where I've ever blamed anything on the "prods".