Battle of the Boyne - Meath Vs Louth - Leinster Final 11/7/2010

[zoyler]

Can't accept Lynchboys agument in this instant.  They were not caught - they were cheated out of it by totally incompetent and pigheaded (not consulting the Umpires) refereeing! 

The GAA have it in their hands to make sure this clown is not allowed wreck another game and disillusion a whole generation of young supporters in another county.

They could also apologise to Louth for the manner in which they were treated by a ref who refused to consult those  nearest the action.

If I were that umpire I know what I would be telling Sludden!

[Hotrocks]

Lads go easy on Sludden, could have been a genuine mistake.  Think hes a regular poster on the tyrone thread aswell

[muppet]

Explain where & how in the rules the awarding of a match to another team as a result of a bad decision by a referee can come about?

According to the rules you're not allowed to throw the ball or carry it in to the net but that went out the window today.

Correct but where's the rule to change a result?

I detest straw man arguments.

Louth were cheated.

[OverThePostsAWide]

Willing to be shot down on this but here goes....

I've umpired for a friend of my fairly regularly over the last 20 year period (up to county final level) and there used to be a time when we were instructed to call square balls and the like but in recent years he's said that all decisions like that are to be left to him. As such our role is to decide whether the ball has entered the net or gone over the bar and its his role to decide whether it was legal or not.

The point I'm making is that perhaps there has been a directive from the GAA reducing the role/influence of umpires???

Probably not so much a directive as clarifying the rules as laid out in the Official Guide:

2.1 POWERS OF UMPIRES
The umpires shall decide if a score is made, or
if the ball has crossed the endline for a wide,
or for a 45m or 65m free, subject to Rule 1.1
(v) above.
2.2 DUTIES OF UMPIRES
(i) The umpires shall signal their decisions as
follows:
(a) A 45m free in Football or a 65m free in
Hurling by raising an arm upright, and then
pointing directly infield, at the place where
the ball passed over the endline.
23
(b) A wide by crossing both arms above the
head.
(c) A score by raising a green flag for a goal
or a white flag for a point, in front of the
scoring space.
(d) A decision to disallow a score by crossing
the flags at the centre of the scoring
space.
(ii) The umpires shall bring to the notice of
the referee, during a break in play, any
instances of foul play in particular, rough or
dangerous play, striking, hitting, or kicking, or
unauthorised incursions onto the field of play,
which have not been noticed by the Referee.

I think from the "A decision" bit included in part (d) but not in (a)-(c), it is clear that you have been advised correctly. i.e. regarding possibly "illegal" scores, the umpire's role is limited to communicating the referee's decision via the crossed flags. i.e. umpires can flag (as in "wave"!) their own decision on whether there has been "a score", but not their own view on the legitimacy of how a score came to be. They can, and should, of course, call the referee's attention to possible infringements and should in turn be consulted by the referee if there are any doubts:

1.1 POWERS OF THE REFEREE
...
The referee shall have the following powers:
...
(iii) To consult with the umpires and/or linesmen
concerning infringements of the Playing Rules,
in particular rough or dangerous play, striking,
hitting or kicking. The referee may apply the
appropriate rule following such consultations.
...
(v) To over-rule a decision of a linesman or
umpire(s).


It didn't look to me like Sludden wanted to, or did, consult. If so, maybe the umpire is off the hook?

Did Sludden think it would make him look weak? ...better that than an authoritive, arrogant idiot  For me, his failure to consult both umpires was the most damning bit.

However, for the avoidance of doubt, the physical attacks (and attempts) on him were shameful and have no place in a civilised society, nevermind the GAA. Shame on those who have said otherwise.

[Hound]

Absolutely sickened by this whole affair.

It patenly obvious that Sludden over ruled the umpire who must have knew the goal shouldn't have stood if you watch his reaction as soon as the goal is scored, never went near the green flag. I just can't understand how or why he didn't have the balls to pull Sludden on his decision to award the goal. Completely astonishing!

I feel so much for all those Louth fans not having the chance to run into the field celebrating the title that should rightly be theirs. So disappointed that the lunatics who were at Sludden and the Meath players have taken the heat away from the ref. The suits have a ready made issue to focus on as opposed to the utter imcompetence shown by Sludden.

I dont blame sludden , to me (in cusack stand) it looked like the umpire was insisting to the ref that it was a goal.

Well if you read the thread, you would see the evidence is categoric that it was Sludden who made the decision and directed the umpire to raise the green flag.

[lynchbhoy]

However we know that in football or hurling (as well as in other sports) if you dont take your chances when they come, you run the risk of being caught and losing.
Thats what happened louth today. They had enough chances - goal chances and point chances - to close out the game. They didnt take them.

That's all irrelevant.

if thats what you think then its fairly obv you know feck all about football or havent obv played it
its the fundamental part and parcel of gaelic games and sports in general.
you dont always get the rub of the green or the refereeing decisions - you take whatever you get.
Not all games have tv coverage or have the chance of demanding a replay based on empathy, sympathy or embarrasment.
there are no rulings as yet for tv replay post adjudication.

one thing that from under 10's up you are told, is that the ref could be agains tyou so you got to go out and play your best and take your scores and win the game in spite os the other team and ref may put in your way.
Louth had the chances to make that last goal debacle irrelvent. they didnt.
Many players and teams have been in the same position, and while they (some of my own games as player and manager included) were lost and we felt cheated - we know we had our destiny in our own hands and therefore could only blame ourselves.
If you cant accept that, then you dont know sport.
fairly obv from reading your stuff on the board in the past I dont expect you to understand

[lynchbhoy]

I dont blame sludden , to me (in cusack stand) it looked like the umpire was insisting to the ref that it was a goal.

From the Cusack stand or several close-up TV angles... which do you think might be more reliable?

not saying I am right, but thats what I saw just from body language.
If I am wrong, no big deal.
as per post above, this goal decision should have been irrelevant anyhow!

[The Real Laoislad]

I certainly wasn't bitching with pints I actually agreed with nearly everything he posted 

[lynchbhoy]

Can't accept Lynchboys agument in this instant.  They were not caught - they were cheated out of it by totally incompetent and pigheaded (not consulting the Umpires) refereeing! 

The GAA have it in their hands to make sure this clown is not allowed wreck another game and disillusion a whole generation of young supporters in another county.

They could also apologise to Louth for the manner in which they were treated by a ref who refused to consult those  nearest the action.

If I were that umpire I know what I would be telling Sludden!

yes they were cheated in that goal decision, but that was just one decision. they missed handfuls of goal/point chances before that.

[Bord na Mona man]

I was gutted for Louth today.
Thankfully I was on the Hill, so didn't realise didn't realise the magnitude of the error until I'd long left Croke Park.
Pity Louth missed a few scorable frees and lost the heads when trying to close out the game. It wouldn't have come down to the fickleness of officialdom.

I think we have definitely reached the stage where the playing field is a sacred area for players and officials only.

[muppet]

Can't accept Lynchboys agument in this instant.  They were not caught - they were cheated out of it by totally incompetent and pigheaded (not consulting the Umpires) refereeing! 

The GAA have it in their hands to make sure this clown is not allowed wreck another game and disillusion a whole generation of young supporters in another county.

They could also apologise to Louth for the manner in which they were treated by a ref who refused to consult those  nearest the action.

If I were that umpire I know what I would be telling Sludden!

yes they were cheated in that goal decision, but that was just one decision. they missed handfuls of goal chances before that.

The point here is that you are using this argument to absolve the referee, officials, Gaa or whoever from being responsible for their incompetence. What happened earlier in the game is irrelevant in this context. Nothing that Louth did or didn't do earlier changes the fact that they have officially lost a game to a goal that was never scored.

[highorlow]

Thierry Sheridan

[Zulu]

However we know that in football or hurling (as well as in other sports) if you dont take your chances when they come, you run the risk of being caught and losing.
Thats what happened louth today. They had enough chances - goal chances and point chances - to close out the game. They didnt take them.

That's all irrelevant.

if thats what you think then its fairly obv you know feck all about football or havent obv played it
its the fundamental part and parcel of gaelic games and sports in general.
you dont always get the rub of the green or the refereeing decisions - you take whatever you get.
Not all games have tv coverage or have the chance of demanding a replay based on empathy, sympathy or embarrasment.
there are no rulings as yet for tv replay post adjudication.

one thing that from under 10's up you are told, is that the ref could be agains tyou so you got to go out and play your best and take your scores and win the game in spite os the other team and ref may put in your way.
Louth had the chances to make that last goal debacle irrelvent. they didnt.
Many players and teams have been in the same position, and while they (some of my own games as player and manager included) were lost and we felt cheated - we know we had our destiny in our own hands and therefore could only blame ourselves.
If you cant accept that, then you dont know sport.
fairly obv from reading your stuff on the board in the past I dont expect you to understand

Hang on a second LB, this wasn't about a few bad decisions that we all argue about, though he made plenty of them too, this was a game defining decision that the officials messed up. This was a monumental c**k up and there is no excuse for it, unlike many poor decisions made in real time, this was one where the ref could of and should of spoken to his umpires about. The decision today was as bad as has ever been made in GAA history because;

A. The ref gave the goal without knowing what had happened (if he did he couldn't have given it)
B. He didn't consult with his umpires, even after one of them called him into the goal to discuss something.
C. He admitted he shouldn't have given the goal but should have instead given a penalty (though even that would have been wrong IMO)
D. there were at least 3 if not four fouls in that passage of play and he and his umpires failed to call any of them.

We all know that calls can go against you in a game but we should be able to rely on the officials getting the basic and blatantly obvious ones right.

I don't know what criterion is set for refs before they can ref at IC level but it is clear that teh bar is set very low and this isn't acceptable.

[heffo]

MidLouth - CYPM - hopefully that'll cheer you up slightly

[pintsofguinness]

C. He admitted he shouldn't have given the goal but should have instead given a penalty (though even that would have been wrong IMO)

I dont know how he'd give a penalty, it would be a free out for Sheridan charging if anything!