Record numbers of free staters flock to join British Army

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Just realised I said Catholic too, oops.

[Evil Genius]

Some interesting section in that Wikipedia (copyright Evil Genius) article on the Belfast Blitz

By 6am, within two hours of the request for assistance, 71 firemen with 13 fire tenders from Dundalk, Drogheda, Dublin, and Dún Laoghaire were on their way to cross the Irish border to assist their Belfast colleagues. In each station volunteers were asked for, as it was beyond their normal duties. In every instance, all volunteered. They remained for three days, until they were sent back by the Northern Ireland government

Taoiseach Eamon De Valera formally protested to Berlin

Two hundred and twenty thousand people fled from the city. Many "arrived in Fermanagh having nothing with them only night shirts". Ten thousand "officially" crossed the border. Over 500 received care from the Irish Red Cross in Dublin

Maybe the Queen will say "Thank You" at Croke Park

Also interestingly:

The Government of Northern Ireland lacked the will, energy and capacity to cope with a major crisis when it came. James Craig, Lord Craigavon, who was Prime Minister of Northern Ireland since its inception in 1921, until his death on November 24, 1940, had become senile. Richard Dawson Bates, was the Home Affairs Minister. According to Sir Wilfred Spender, the cabinet secretary was "incapable of giving his responsible officers coherent directions on policy" – actually, he was drunk for most of each day

Lord Craigavon died on Sunday, 24 November 1940. He was succeeded by John Miller Andrews, then 70 years old, who was no more capable of dealing with the situation than his predecessor. The minutes of his cabinet meetings show more discussion on protecting the bronze statue of Carson than the provision of air-raid shelters

Should Martin McGuinness and the Executive apologise for the conduct of its predecessor...perhaps during a visit to Windsor Park

There is no doubt that the preparations for, and response to, the threat of German air attack by the Government of NI was woefully and scandalously negligent.

That does not alter my central thesis which is that for all that NI undoubtedly benefits economically from being in the UK, membership of such a Union works both ways.

Indeed, so close-run was the struggle to defy the Nazis in 1940, that it is undeniable that had it not been for the contribution* to the War Effort of (even so small a region as) NI , the War would very likely have been lost.

Which is only like pointing out to those people in ROI who are presently complaining about the financial strictures being imposed by the Germans etc, that they weren't so disgruntled when formerly the (German-financed) EU was pumping billions into the ROI during the 70's, 80's and 90's etc.

Rough with Smooth, rough with smooth...

P.S. I don't know how much Dawson Bates was drinking at the time, but of itself, that wouldn't necessarily have disqualified him from doing a job. For let's face it, it didn't seem to do this man too much harm:
http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/myths/myths/he-was-an-alcohol-abuser


* - Ships, aircraft, food, bases, volunteers etc

In general I agree with you and no doubt a high price was paid by NI during WW11 in particular.

However, AQMP touches on a very valid point that the Unionist/Loyaliist view of  Eire's neutrality (and lack of by times) in WW11 is shrouded in myth and inaccuracy.

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

A lot of this was deliberately cultivated in post war years because of the Stormont's government embarrassement about some aspects of NI's contribution.

Documents published form HM Governments files in the 70's show that the Stormont cabinet requested Westminister not to publish data about volunteers from Ireland.  Apparently the NI figures didn't compare favourably enough to those that gave addresses from the black, papist, neutral free state....oops.

Apparently we didn't all spend our time at home signalling German subs to come ashore for cups of tea.

There are very sound reasons to explain why, at first sight, the contribution of NI in WWII would appear to compare unfavourably with that of GB and Eire.
These go back to WWI (where Ulster's contribution and sacrifice was unquestionable, btw). I believe I'm right in saying that at the time, the British Army of WWI was the largest volunteer army the world had ever seen.
But with the horrors of Flanders etc still being so fresh in the nation's memory by 1939 (i.e. a mere 21 years later), the British Government had no alternative but to introduce Conscription in GB - otherwise they'd never have received the required number of volunteers.
Similarly, I have no doubt that they would have introduced Conscription for NI, had they thought threy would have got away with it. However, with NI having an open land border with a neutral country, plus a significant Nationalist minority which would have resisted strongly, it was calculated that it would actually have required more soldiers to enforce Conscription than it would have produced!
As for the contribution from Eire, there is no doubt that it was impressive. But consider this. At the time, Eire was by far the poorest part of the British Isles. And the War cut it off from much of its major markets (import and export) so as to exacerbate this, without the corresponding boost to the economy produced by in the UK by moving to a wartime economy.
One of the chief effects of this wartime economy was that with so many men being away fighting, civilian wages in the UK were boosted considerably. It was then felt necessary to increase military wages to compensate.
And all of this was happening at a time when jobs in Eire were scarcer than ever, and wages reduced accordingly.
Of course, I would not claim that volunteers from Eire were solely motivated to join up by jobs and money etc, but if increasing numbers of people from ROI are joining up today for economic reasons, even when they might well expect to be sent to Afghanistan etc, the financial imperative in 1939 had to have been a major factor.
Meanwhile, employment boomed in NI, whilst the shipyards, aircraft and munitions factories etc went onto a wartime footing.

Neither does it play well to talk about refugees helped, fire tenders sent north or any other aspects of Eire's neutrality that were pro-British.

Whilst entirely welcome and no doubt under-appreciated in certain quarters, the fact is that the fire engines etc were hardly evidence of "pro-British bias" on Dev's part - by his reckoning, he was merely providing humanitarian assistance to his fellow Irish citizens.
And in any case, it hardly equated to the food and fuel which the (British) Merchant Navy were shipping to Eire, at enormous cost, whilst she maintained her policy of Neutrality.

Of course if you pick any book on that time, the pro-British bias of Irish neutrality will be acknowledged.  Even Winston buried the hatchet with Dev post war.

Righto so, then. We should be grateful that Eire bent the rules of strict neutrality marginally in favour of the UK, including that part which is also Irish, against the interests of the Third Reich.
Tough call, that one...

You are possibly correct about every contribution being needed in early 1940 but after that British intelligence continually advised Churchill not to bring Eire into the War.  Given the inflow of recruits, any further gains would have been out-balanced by the need to flood the country with defenders by making it a "beliigerent"...........

Here is what Churchill had so upon the matter:
"Owing to the action of Mr De Valera, so much at variance with the temper and instinct of thousands of Southern Irishmen who hastened to the battlefront to prove their ancient valour, the approaches which the Southern Irish ports and airfields could so easily have guarded were closed by the hostile aircraft and U-boats. This was indeed a deadly moment in our life, and if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr de Valera or perish for ever from this earth."
Note his use of the word "moment". He was obviously referring to 1940, after 1940 both the USSR and USA entered the war, so there was no longer any need to consider initiating regime change  in Eire.

Of course when Lizzie comes to town she will acknowledge some aspect of this by paying respect to those that died in these wars. I see though that will be balanced with those who fought for our independence.  I wonder how such symmetry will go down in some quarters.

Unsure, but I suspect that her words of reconciliation towards Republicanism etc will cause less consternation and protest amongst hardline NI Loyalists than her mere presence in Dublin will amongst hardline Irish Republicans.
And I doubt whether mainstream NI Unionism/Loyalism will give a damn.

Also the EU contribution to Ireland is significant but not to the extent held in Unionist/Loyalist mythology (once again).

"Mythology" my hole! 
Read this, written by well-known "Unionist/Loyalist" Michael Hennigan in 2004:
http://www.finfacts.ie/comment/irelandeunetreceiptsbenefits.htm

Probably of equal importance to the development of the Irish economy was that of American multi-nationals.   

Yep, you used the EU's money to undercut Corporation Tax rates in the rest of the EU, thereby diverting non-EU investment from those other EU states to your own. It was certainly clever, I'll give you that.
And you wonder why the Germans etc are taking the hump at having to bale you out, now that you've p1ssed it all up against the wall...

[mylestheslasher]

I'm not sure what to make of what I have heard in the last week, thought to ignore it the first time I heard a mate talk about it this week, after trying to kinda change her mind, without actually making it obvious thats what I was trying to do. Now another friend has suggested that she is thinking of doing the same.

2 friends of mine, both 20, one from a Republican, Nationalist, GAA, 6 county background told me last week she intended to join the British army as a nurse, then today another friend also 20 from a Nationalist, Catholic, SDLP background she wanted to join the RAF as a nurse. In both cases I found myself to be a little less tollerent of the idea than I thought I was. I have a friend 21 and female who is from a Protestant & Unionist background and I didn't even bat an eyelid when she told me before Christmas that she wanted to join the RAF, even kind of supported her decision. I have not been able to find myself supportive of my friends from 6 county Nationalist backgrounds.

I think alot of lads on here don't realise that yer young women are all lining up to fight (or cure) for Queen and Country, it has surprised me quite a bit. I think that programme on Channel 4 this week may have been the catalyst.

Who the f**k are you to talk any of these people out of anything?

If some people are of the opinon that times have changed, and they are more interested in putting a good career together - who are you to even have an opinion on it - let alone voice it to them with some attempt to change their minds? What does it matter which religion they are? Some people don't give a f**k about religion - you do realise that? That there is more to life for the average young irish person now than religious and political affiliation - thank the "Lord". It's very refreshing to look at people without labels MGHU - you should try it some time.

Obviously it matters to some brainless idiots on here - but to be honest most younger people are out growing the mayhem that tortured previous generations. They are damn right to let it go - and while never forgetting it happened, I'd say those young people are to be commended - while you need a good boot in the hole.

Armies are not about providing "careers" they are in the business of killing people, thats why they have big guns. The rest is just window dressing. They kill to protect the interests of the country they serve. While I can tolerate a person wishing to protect their own country the idea of signing up to protect someone elses just to "enjoy" the experience or have a "career" is total muck imo.

[Puckoon]

You're talking about young girls going into nursing - you do realise that, right?

[Jim_Murphy_74]

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

EG,

I have no desire to go into a Lynchboy-style parsing line by line.

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11. 

I never stated anyone should be grateful  for any particular actions by Eire but to state that acknowledging these actions (however small) they were doesn't fit with the "right" view.  Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

/Jim.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

EG,

I have no desire to go into a Lynchboy-style parsing line by line.

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11. 

I never stated anyone should be grateful  for any particular actions by Eire but to state that acknowledging these actions (however small) they were doesn't fit with the "right" view.  Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

/Jim.

I have come across this in England.

I had a row with an Australian about this on a crowded Melbourne Connex train.

They Myth is alive and well in the former British Empire, where the Irish are often percieved as the traitors to the crown and we deserved all the hardship dished upon us by our neighbours.

[mylestheslasher]

You're talking about young girls going into nursing - you do realise that, right?

The nurse is part of a machine designed to kill. Plenty of jobs for nurses in uk hospitals so why the need to join an army to practice. Do you think it is ironic to join the army as a nurse when the people you are treating are trained killers?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

You're talking about young girls going into nursing - you do realise that, right?

The nurse is part of a machine designed to kill. Plenty of jobs for nurses in uk hospitals so why the need to join an army to practice. Do you think it is ironic to join the army as a nurse when the people you are treating are trained killers?

I must point out, that they often nurse both sides and civilians.

[Puckoon]

I don't think its ironic at all - and obviously neither do these two hypothetical youngsters. Irony doesnt come into it at the level of people who don't care about this (non) issue. They are happy enough seeing the dough, or the training/travel/lifeopportunites etc. With the NHS as bad as it has always been - it appears that only people with surpreme social consciences, and/or supreme political leanings can find an axe to grind with their decisions. They certainly arent looking down this hypothetical path just to grind hardline Irish gears Myles.

The fact remains that the younger people coming up don't care about the politics of these decisions - the probably don't even see the politics of these decisions - and that can only be good for future generations if it means this kind of discussion gets washed away. Like Minder said on the united ireland thread - and I said here - many people don't care about whatever it is that is bugging you and bugging MGHU. The bigger picture for people of real life issues cuts a lot of ties.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I don't think its ironic at all - and obviously neither do these two hypothetical youngsters. Irony doesnt come into it at the level of people who don't care about this (non) issue. They are happy enough seeing the dough, or the training/travel/lifeopportunites etc. With the NHS as bad as it has always been - it appears that only people with surpreme social consciences, and/or supreme political leanings can find an axe to grind with their decisions. They certainly arent looking down this hypothetical path just to grind hardline Irish gears Myles.

The fact remains that the younger people coming up don't care about the politics of these decisions - the probably don't even see the politics of these decisions - and that can only be good for future generations if it means this kind of discussion gets washed away. Like Minder said on the united ireland thread - and I said here - many people don't care about whatever it is that is bugging you and bugging MGHU. The bigger picture for people of real life issues cuts a lot of ties.

They are actually my friends, I don't quite know myself, but it does bug me. I am actually thinking of doing a similar role in the Australian Navy or Airforce, if they take me, but I would need to get citizenship first. My preference would be the Irish army, but I don't think I will be ready for it before I am too old to enlist.

Edited that to say Navy or Airforce, put army in error originaly.

[Puckoon]

I wasn't saying they didnt exist MGHU - I just felt weird bleating on about people I don't know - so for sake of making myself feel better about that - I suggested they were hyopthetical.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

I wasn't saying they didnt exist MGHU - I just felt weird bleating on about people I don't know - so for sake of making myself feel better about that - I suggested they were hyopthetical.

Perhaps its being over a decade older than them, but I could never wear a British military uniform.

[Puckoon]

Nor I. Their decision doesn't have any bearing on me however - so more power to them if that's what they want to do. I got my own shit to worry about.

[mylestheslasher]

I don't think its ironic at all - and obviously neither do these two hypothetical youngsters. Irony doesnt come into it at the level of people who don't care about this (non) issue. They are happy enough seeing the dough, or the training/travel/lifeopportunites etc. With the NHS as bad as it has always been - it appears that only people with surpreme social consciences, and/or supreme political leanings can find an axe to grind with their decisions. They certainly arent looking down this hypothetical path just to grind hardline Irish gears Myles.

The fact remains that the younger people coming up don't care about the politics of these decisions - the probably don't even see the politics of these decisions - and that can only be good for future generations if it means this kind of discussion gets washed away. Like Minder said on the united ireland thread - and I said here - many people don't care about whatever it is that is bugging you and bugging MGHU. The bigger picture for people of real life issues cuts a lot of ties.

So you effectively agree with what I said at the start of this thread, that these people are mercenaries that don't give a shit about what they are doing as long as they have a good experience?

[Evil Genius]

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

EG,

I have no desire to go into a Lynchboy-style parsing line by line.

Fine.

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11.

So Unionists who (along with their Nationalist neighbours) were having the s h i t bombed out of them by the Nazis, whilst Eire went unscathed, are unsympathetic towards De Valera etc.

Who'd a thunk it? 

I never stated anyone should be grateful  for any particular actions by Eire but to state that acknowledging these actions (however small) they were doesn't fit with the "right" view.  Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

I personally do not consider Eire under Dev to have been especially biased towards Germany over the UK during the War.

As a human being, what I find repugnant is that there could ever be any question of Neutrality when faced with a choice between a democracy like the UK and a vile dictatorship like Nazi Germany.

And as a Unionist, I find it further repugnant that people could be motivated to choose Neutrality at least partly from sheer anti-British hatred.

And as for Dev's visit to the German Ambassador in order to pass on his condolences at the death of Hitler in person, it is often overlooked that he failed to visit the US Embassy 3 weeks earlier on the death of President Roosevelt, despite his  (Dev's) own American citizenship having saved his neck  following the Easter Rising. 


P.S.  Your attempt to associate me with more hardline views on the subject (i.e. my "parish of OWC"), whilst avoiding addressing what I actually post, is somewhat below your regular standards and something I more usually expect from the likes of LynchBhoy.

Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

Outside of (NI) Unionism, there is very little analysis of Eire's attitude towards the Nazis of any kind.

That is because most people were too busy fighting the b a s t a r d s...