Record numbers of free staters flock to join British Army

[Hardy]

Just once, taking and responding to the substantive point and the general thrust of a statement would be refreshing. The tedious syntactical parsing and jesuitical deconstruction of each sentence, subordinate clause and phrase as a cover for a disagreement of opinion masquerading as a rebuttal of facts robs one of the will to live, never mind respond.

Briefly - Shatter is a Zionist gobshite (this is a forum of opinions). It's reasonable to assume this colours his attitude to the protagonists in WWII. I'm not aware of any statement of government policy that categorises the country's neutrality, then or now as "morally bankrupt". I am amazed that the Minister For Defence feels free to comment in such pejorative terms and, by inference, insult the service that the army provided to the state in support of this policy and I would expect the Taoiseach to chastise him for it.

As I said, there were a lot of neutral countries in 1939. I don't hear anybody condemning them as "morally bankrupt", much less ministers elected by their peoples to serve in in their governments. Most that changed that stance did so because they were attacked. Notwithstanding the amendments of the neutrality acts in 1939, the US was still officially neutral until the repeal of the Lend Lease Act in 1941, after US shipping was attacked by Germany and Pearl Harbour by Japan.

I'm pleased you're pleased the deserters have been pardoned. I agree they were irregularly treated and should have been officially dealt with, rather than unofficially ostracised. And I have no desire to see men in their nineties live in fear and foreboding that their actions of decades past will come back to haunt them. It is perfectly reasonable to hold these views simultaneously with the view that their actions in revoking their pledge of allegiance to their country and deserting it in a time of dire emergency were reprehensible at best and traitorous at worst and simultaneously with an attitude that I won't lose much sleep over their ... well ... loss of sleep over it. 

The comment about treating them as heroes was in reference to the tone of the campaign for pardon (supported by the Portadown faction of the UDR, among other odd bedfellows for Sinn Féin in this episode) and the general tenor of the media reporting of it.

[Rossfan]

Did the Brits ever pardon the "Connaught" Rangers who protested ( called a mutiny by the Brits) in India in 1921 over the misbehaviour ( to put it mildly) of the Brit Army/Tans/Auxies in Ireland?
One of them ,James Daly from Co Westmeath (Tyrellspass I believe ) was executed.
Or is standing up for your own Country a lesser thing altogether?

[muppet]

The tedious syntactical parsing and jesuitical deconstruction of each sentence, subordinate clause and phrase as a cover for a disagreement of opinion masquerading as a rebuttal of facts robs one of the will to live, never mind respond.

This is one of the best sentences that ever appeared on the internet.

I will shamelessly plagiarize it sometime.

[AQMP]

The tedious syntactical parsing and jesuitical deconstruction of each sentence, subordinate clause and phrase as a cover for a disagreement of opinion masquerading as a rebuttal of facts robs one of the will to live, never mind respond.

This is one of the best sentences that ever appeared on the internet.

I will shamelessly plagiarize it sometime.

Magnificent!

[Hardy]

I thought it was a bit prolix, myself. "Quit with the quotes" would have done.

[Evil Genius]

Just once, taking and responding to the substantive point and the general thrust of a statement would be refreshing. The tedious syntactical parsing and jesuitical deconstruction of each sentence, subordinate clause and phrase as a cover for a disagreement of opinion masquerading as a rebuttal of facts robs one of the will to live, never mind respond.

Bluster like this is always a sure sign of an empty argument.

Briefly - Shatter is a Zionist gobshite (this is a forum of opinions). It's reasonable to assume this colours his attitude to the protagonists in WWII.

Just because someones opinions are coloured by his background doesn't of itself invalidate those opinions, so why not "play the ball", rather than the man?

I'm not aware of any statement of government policy that categorises the country's neutrality, then or now as "morally bankrupt". I am amazed that the Minister For Defence feels free to comment in such pejorative terms...

You are conflating two separate issues.
First, on behalf of the nation, Shatter has revealed that those defectors to the British Army will now be pardoned by the Government of which he is a Minister.
Second, in the context of Holocaust Memorial Day, he expressed the opinion that the actions of the Irish government of 70 years ago (eg refusing admission to Jewish refugees, Dev passing personal condolences to the German Ambassador in the event of Hitler's death etc) was "morally bankrupt". If this opinion is unacceptable to the Government, or incompatible with his position as Minister, then we can expect Enda Kenny to admonish him. If Kenny doesn't, we must assume that he/his Government does not object to Shatter's comments. (Indeed, I suspect that Shatter may have had his speech cleared before he delivered it, but we'll see).

... and, by inference, insult the service that the army provided to the state in support of this policy and I would expect the Taoiseach to chastise him for it.

Oh for God's sake. Shatter clearly criticised the De Valera Government, not the Irish Defence Forces and your attempt to deflect from the poverty of your argument by taking mock offence on their part is (frankly) embarrassing.

As I said, there were a lot of neutral countries in 1939. I don't hear anybody condemning them as "morally bankrupt", much less ministers elected by their peoples to serve in in their governments. Most that changed that stance did so because they were attacked.

By referring to other Neutral countries, you are engaging in "Whataboutery" - yet another umistakeable sign of the weakness of your argument. Therefore if you want to discuss the stance of eg Spain, Sweden or Switzerland re WWII, then why not start a separate thread?

As for Shatter's intervention, are you saying that he should be criticising the actions of other countries, whilst saying nothing about those of his own? Yeah, right...

Notwithstanding the amendments of the neutrality acts in 1939, the US was still officially neutral until the repeal of the Lend Lease Act in 1941, after US shipping was attacked by Germany and Pearl Harbour by Japan.

You sought to exonerate the Irish position by comparing it with that of the USA. I pointed out that whilst Eire operated a strictly evenhanded treatment between the UK and Germany, the USA altered its laws to allow shipment of food, fuel, arms and munitions to the UK, whilst simultaneously denying them to Germany.
Whilst technically* the USA could have claimed to have been maintaining its neutrality, I doubt whether the Germans saw it that way. And in any case, it tears the arse out of the point you were trying to make. Again.


* - And you  were the one who accused me  of being "jesuitical"... 

I'm pleased you're pleased the deserters have been pardoned. I agree they were irregularly treated and should have been officially dealt with, rather than unofficially ostracised. And I have no desire to see men in their nineties live in fear and foreboding that their actions of decades past will come back to haunt them. It is perfectly reasonable to hold these views simultaneously with the view that their actions in revoking their pledge of allegiance to their country and deserting it in a time of dire emergency were reprehensible at best and traitorous at worst and simultaneously with an attitude that I won't lose much sleep over their ... well ... loss of sleep over it. 

The point is that Shatter is not apologising for what the deserters did, he is apologising, on behalf of the Government, for what a previous Government did to them.
And in all the circumstances, that apoplogy and Pardon is imo entirely reasonable, indeed overdue.
As for the related, but nonetheless distinct, point about Irish Government policy towards "The Emergency", you are of course perfectly entitled to defend the morality of it, just as I am entitled to the opinion that it stank worse than week-old fish.
Still, I am gratified that my own Government took a different course - as is the most of Europe...

The comment about treating them as heroes was in reference to the tone of the campaign for pardon (supported by the Portadown faction of the UDR, among other odd bedfellows for Sinn Féin in this episode) and the general tenor of the media reporting of it.

Yep, start your post with irrelevant bluster and finish with it.

Well done!

[Evil Genius]

Did the Brits ever pardon the "Connaught" Rangers who protested ( called a mutiny by the Brits) in India in 1921 over the misbehaviour ( to put it mildly) of the Brit Army/Tans/Auxies in Ireland?
One of them ,James Daly from Co Westmeath (Tyrellspass I believe ) was executed.
Or is standing up for your own Country a lesser thing altogether?

"Whataboutery".

If you want to discuss the Connaught Rangers, you can always start another thread - I'm sure they'll all thank you for it...

[Evil Genius]

The tedious syntactical parsing and jesuitical deconstruction of each sentence, subordinate clause and phrase as a cover for a disagreement of opinion masquerading as a rebuttal of facts robs one of the will to live, never mind respond.

This is one of the best sentences that ever appeared on the internet.

I will shamelessly plagiarize it sometime.

Well considering it's all style and no substance, you will be able to insert it in just about any thread, on any subject....

[Evil Genius]

I thought it was a bit prolix, myself.

Meh, more bolix than prolix, imo...

"Quit with the quotes" would have done.

I know. It must be irritating to have your own words thrown back at you... 

[Hardy]

Just FYI, EG - I didn't bother reading your magnum opus above. Life is too short. I've said all I wanted to say on the matter and I assume there can be little that you wanted to say that wasn't included in what I read before.

[Evil Genius]

Just FYI, EG - I didn't bother reading your magnum opus above. Life is too short. I've said all I wanted to say on the matter and I assume there can be little that you wanted to say that wasn't included in what I read before.

Ah, poor diddums. I suppose you never liked this game anyway...

P.S. You did  read my post, didn't you? 

[Hardy]

What age are you?

[mylestheslasher]

I agree 100% with hardy. Shatter hadn't many morals when he was inviting his Zionist mates into our country when they were using illegal weapons against civilians and indeed against the UN in Gaza, which was headed by an irishman at the time. The Irish people don't need a lecture on morals from that little p***k. Imo, they should have got no pardon for deserting their own army. More interesting is why this is even of interest to a government minister at a time of such financial peril.

[Evil Genius]

What age are you?

Old enough to know better than to pretend not to have read something, just because it contains some difficult challenges to one of my own posts.

[Evil Genius]

I agree 100% with hardy. Shatter hadn't many morals when he was inviting his Zionist mates into our country when they were using illegal weapons against civilians and indeed against the UN in Gaza, which was headed by an irishman at the time. The Irish people don't need a lecture on morals from that little p***k.

Then they shouldn't have elected him...

Imo, they should have got no pardon for deserting their own army.

The Government Pardon is more of a recognition of the wrong done to them and their families by a previous Irish Government, than an exoneration of what they (deserters) did.
Had Dev's Government moved against them in a proper, constitutional and legal manner, there would be no need for any pardon, indeed we wouldn't have been having this discussion now.
Still, let's blame Shatter and Kenny for that, eh? 

More interesting is why this is even of interest to a government minister at a time of such financial peril.

Yeah, let's wait until the deserters are all dead, er, the Republic is free of the present financial crisis, before dealing with any other matters of public policy and principle.

P.S. Exactly how much is this Pardon going to cost the country, anyhow? Will Michael Noonan have to apply to the IMF for another loan to pay for it?